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WD-1002 / F1001B / F1040 Fuse channel rivet holes

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kearney(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:51 pm Post subject: WD-1002 / F1001B / F1040 Fuse channel rivet holes

Hi  

   

Last night I started match drilling the holes in the WD1002 steel weldment that is attached to the firewall. Using the guide holes in the F-1001B as a guide and after clamping the top WD-1002 flange to get the best edge clearance possible, I still only got a 3/32 edge clearance (measured from the edge of the rivet hole) on most of the holes.   

   

Given that that the weldments are steel and not aluminium is this edge clearance sufficient?  

   

The archives indicate that that these parts have been problematic for some. Based on what I read, I knew to be fairly aggressive in clamping the parts to get the most clearance possible.  Interestingly, I did have to shim the side (towards the skin) WD-1002 flanges about a 1/8” to get reasonable edge clearance.  Even so, the maximum edge clearance would be just over 1/8” if the rivets were evenly spaced on the flange. This suggests that 3/16” spacing might be okay in this application.  

   

Personally, I think this is one area where the plans should give the builder a bit of a heads up as to what to do and what to expect.  

   

Any comments or should I talk to the Van’s order desk yet again….  

   

Cheers  

   

Les Kearney  

#40643 – Frustrated in the fuse ..  

   

       [quote][b]

jchang10

Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 227

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:14 am Post subject: WD-1002 / F1001B / F1040 Fuse channel rivet holes

Les... yes, i would give Vans a call just to put your mind at ease. i 

did. the 3/32" edge distance sounds and looks about right. i may even 

have some of the furthest aft holes with even less edge distance. from 

what i remember, i was told loads are mainly longitudinal and not 

lateral here. thus, the rivets would break long before the steel. if you 

do a lot of knife-edge maneuvers, then there might be cause for concern. 



i think you are referring to this area:

http://www.jline.com/log/aviation/build/airframe/fuselage/sec29_fuse_side_skins/photos/IMG_4637.html



calling Section 29 "frustrating", is putting it mildly!



jae

40533

floors



Les Kearney wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Hi



 Last night I started match drilling the holes in the WD1002 steel 

 weldment that is attached to the firewall. Using the guide holes in 

 the F-1001B as a guide and _after_ clamping the top WD-1002 flange to 

 get the best edge clearance possible, I still only got a 3/32 edge 

 clearance (measured from the edge of the rivet hole) on most of the 

 holes.



 Given that that the weldments are steel and not aluminium is this edge 

 clearance sufficient?



 The archives indicate that that these parts have been problematic for 

 some. Based on what I read, I knew to be fairly aggressive in clamping 

 the parts to get the most clearance possible. Interestingly, I did 

 have to shim the side (towards the skin) WD-1002 flanges about a 1/8” 

 to get reasonable edge clearance. Even so, the maximum edge clearance 

 would be just over 1/8” if the rivets were evenly spaced on the 

 flange. This suggests that 3/16” spacing might be okay in this 

 application.



 Personally, I think this is one area where the plans should give the 

 builder a bit of a heads up as to what to do and what to expect.



 Any comments or should I talk to the Van’s order desk yet again….



 Cheers



 Les Kearney



 #40643 – Frustrated in the fuse ..



 *

 *

_________________
#40533 RV-10
First flight 10/19/2011
Phase 1 Done 11/26/2011

Kearney(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:16 am Post subject: WD-1002 / F1001B / F1040 Fuse channel rivet holes

Hi Jae

  6nbsp;

 I was really looking forward to those knife edge maneuvers and now you say I can 7t do them!!!! Rats!!!

  6nbsp;

 Seriously though C 6nbsp;I 6nbsp;agree with the longitudinal assessment E My concern 6nbsp;is that there is a lateral 6nbsp;stress setup as I had to clamp and squeeze the WD1002 flange outward 6nbsp;to get the edge clearance 6nbsp;achieved E

  6nbsp;

 I have spoken to Vans C sent them some info and am awaiting a response from their engineering department E It would be good if the plans: 6nbsp;

  specified the minimum 6nbsp;acceptable edge clearance given that we are talking about steel parts held with aluminium rivets 
specified how to clamp (and perhaps to what extent) to get this edge clearance E 

Better yet would be to make the parts so that this is a non issue E Adding 1/2 2 to the flange would be a perfect solution E 

I will post whatever info comes back from Vans 

Cheers 

Les 6nbsp;  

 

 6nbsp;  6nbsp;

  6nbsp;

 

 6gt; 

 6gt; 

 6gt; --

kearney(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:59 pm Post subject: WD-1002 / F1001B / F1040 Fuse channel rivet holes

Hi Again  

   

I heard back from Ken at Van’s. According to Ken, the engineering group is not concerned about the 3/32 edge clearance that I achieved.   

   

I also have a gap between the F1001B and the F1040 fuse channel at the forward end that I don’t think will close when riveted. They said I could shim the gap if desired.  

   

Cheers  

   

Les  

#40643 – Singing the Section 29 Blues….  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of LES KEARNEY

 Sent: October-23-07 10:16 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: FW: RV10-List: WD-1002 / F1001B / F1040 Fuse channel rivet holes  

  

     

Hi Jae  

    

   

    

I was really looking forward to those knife edge maneuvers and now you say I can't do them!!!! Rats!!!  

    

   

    

Seriously though, I agree with the longitudinal assessment. My concern is that there is a lateral stress setup as I had to clamp and squeeze the WD1002 flange outward to get the edge clearance achieved.  

    

   

    

I have spoken to Vans, sent them some info and am awaiting a response from their engineering department. It would be good if the plans:   

    specified the minimum acceptable edge      clearance given that we are talking about steel parts held with aluminium      rivets  
specified how to clamp (and perhaps to what      extent) to get this edge clearance.   

Better yet would be to make the parts so that this is a non issue. Adding 1/2" to the flange would be a perfect solution.  

I will post whatever info comes back from Vans  

Cheers  

Les    

     

   

    

   

    



 > 

 > 

 > --

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:59 pm Post subject: WD-1002 / F1001B / F1040 Fuse channel rivet holes

Les, was that Ken Krueger or Ken Scott that quoted for the whole engineering department/ group at VANS?  If you heard that in writing, could you (Please) post it so that others can base their build technique on it as well. Their professional knowledge base and academic training are vastly differing between the two Ken’s.  

   

A 2X rivet diameter to edge distance is a fairly solid and hard rule to avoid both stress cracks and tears on military, civil air carrier and certified general aviation build aeroplanes.  I have both the US Army DOD Structural Manual and the Naval Aviator’s Manuals, The Canadian Bombardier Structural Aircraft Manual along with the FAA AC 43.13. Would anyone else like another Aviation Structural Engineer’s written opinion before proceeding with reduced edge distances? If it is a modern change, I am all for modifying decades old technique.  

   

Gosh, And why is it that I always seem like the bad guy when following an established construction technique?  Must be the weather out here.  Don’t take any of this personally I have to maintain French Canadian designed and built aircraft every night.  Epic Aircraft found it advantageous to move from Oregon to Canada for a most interesting reason.  

   

I am not even going there on the subject of closing gaps with shim material before anchoring skins with solid rivet fasteners.  

   

John Cox - KUAO  

   

   

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney

 Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 5:59 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: FW: RV10-List: WD-1002 / F1001B / F1040 Fuse channel rivet holes  

  

   

Hi Again  

   

I heard back from Ken at Van’s. According to Ken, the engineering group is not concerned about the 3/32 edge clearance that I achieved.   

   

I also have a gap between the F1001B and the F1040 fuse channel at the forward end that I don’t think will close when riveted. They said I could shim the gap if desired.  

   

Cheers  

   

Les  

#40643 – Singing the Section 29 Blues….  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of LES KEARNEY

 Sent: October-23-07 10:16 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: FW: WD-1002 / F1001B / F1040 Fuse channel rivet holes  

  

     

Hi Jae  

    

   

    

I was really looking forward to those knife edge maneuvers and now you say I can't do them!!!! Rats!!!  

    

   

    

Seriously though, I agree with the longitudinal assessment. My concern is that there is a lateral stress setup as I had to clamp and squeeze the WD1002 flange outward to get the edge clearance achieved.  

    

   

    

I have spoken to Vans, sent them some info and am awaiting a response from their engineering department. It would be good if the plans:   

  

1.      specified the minimum acceptable edge clearance given that we are talking about steel parts held with aluminium rivets  

2.      specified how to clamp (and perhaps to what extent) to get this edge clearance.  

Better yet would be to make the parts so that this is a non issue. Adding 1/2" to the flange would be a perfect solution.  

I will post whatever info comes back from Vans  

Cheers  

Les    

     

   

    

   

    



 > 

 > 

 > --

planesmith(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:36 am Post subject: WD-1002 / F1001B / F1040 Fuse channel rivet holes

John,

  

 Not "the bad guy", just keeping the rest of us honest. And maybe saving a life or two in the process. Hmm sounds like hero work, but heroes are sometimes miss understood.

  

 Vern Smith (#324 cabin top)

  

 do not archive





  	  Quote: 	
		    Subject: RE: FW: WD-1002 / F1001B / F1040 Fuse channel rivet holes

Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 18:55:56 -0700

From: johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com



   .ExternalClass EC_p.MsoNormal, .ExternalClass EC_li.MsoNormal, .ExternalClass EC_div.MsoNormal {margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman';} .ExternalClass a:link, .ExternalClass EC_span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} .ExternalClass a:visited, .ExternalClass EC_span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} .ExternalClass p {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman';} .ExternalClass pre {margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:10.0pt;font-family:'Courier New';} .ExternalClass EC_span.EmailStyle19 {font-family:Arial;color:navy;} .ExternalClass EC_span.EmailStyle20 {font-family:Arial;color:blue;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none none;} (at)page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in;} .ExternalClass EC_div.Section1 {page:Section1;} .ExternalClass ol {margin-bottom:0in;} .ExternalClass ul {margin-bottom:0in;}     

Les, was that Ken Krueger or Ken Scott that quoted for the whole engineering department/ group at VANS?  If you heard that in writing, could you (Please) post it so that others can base their build technique on it as well. Their professional knowledge base and academic training are vastly differing between the two Ken’s. 

  

A 2X rivet diameter to edge distance is a fairly solid and hard rule to avoid both stress cracks and tears on military, civil air carrier and certified general aviation build aeroplanes.  I have both the US Army DOD Structural Manual and the Naval Aviator’s Manuals, The Canadian Bombardier Structural Aircraft Manual along with the FAA AC 43.13. Would anyone else like another Aviation Structural Engineer’s written opinion before proceeding with reduced edge distances? If it is a modern change, I am all for modifying decades old technique. 

  

Gosh, And why is it that I always seem like the bad guy when following an established construction technique?  Must be the weather out here.  Don’t take any of this personally I have to maintain French Canadian designed and built aircraft every night.  Epic Aircraft found it advantageous to move from Oregon to Canada for a most interesting reason. 

  

I am not even going there on the subject of closing gaps with shim material before anchoring skins with solid rivet fasteners. 

  

John Cox - KUAO 

  

  

 

	
Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Café. Stop by today!  [quote][b]

jchang10

Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 227

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:53 am Post subject: WD-1002 / F1001B / F1040 Fuse channel rivet holes

Les... strange that this gap should exist. i don't recall having any 

issues here and with the rivets in, everything is tight. a picture would 

help.



Jae

40533



Les Kearney wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Hi Again



 I heard back from Ken at Van’s. According to Ken, the engineering 

 group is not concerned about the 3/32 edge clearance that I achieved.



 I also have a gap between the F1001B and the F1040 fuse channel at the 

 forward end that I don’t think will close when riveted. They said I 

 could shim the gap if desired.



 Cheers



 Les



 #40643 – Singing the Section 29 Blues….



 *

 *

_________________
#40533 RV-10
First flight 10/19/2011
Phase 1 Done 11/26/2011

Kearney(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:12 am Post subject: WD-1002 / F1001B / F1040 Fuse channel rivet holes

Hi Jae

  6nbsp;

 Perhaps the rivets will close the gap E 6nbsp; However C I am used to seeing parts sit flush befor rivetting E In any event C I will try to post a picture later tonight E

  6nbsp;

 Cheers

  6nbsp;

 Les



---

kearney(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:16 pm Post subject: WD-1002 / F1001B / F1040 Fuse channel rivet holes

Hi Again  

   

I have a follow-up question for builders who have / are going through the forward fuse construction. After a couple of emails / calls to Vans, it appears that a reduced edge clearance for the to upper flange rivets is okay. Unfortunately the edge clearances that I have achieved are still woefully inadequate (at least to me).   

   

I have spent quite a bit of time trying sort out what the problem is with the WD1002. It appears that the edge of the top flange runs very close to the line of rivet holes in the F1001B flange. As a result it requires considerable clamping to get any sort of edge clearance when match drilling. This clamping in turn seems to cause a distortion the firewall as it causes a twist in the WD1002 base. I have this problem in both my WD1002 weldments. Fortunately, the WD1003 weldments seem okay and require only a *little* clamping to get good edge distances.   

   

I would be interested in finding out if other builders have had the same problem and if so how did they handle it.   

   

Cheers  

   

Les Kearney  

#40643 – Frustrated in the fuse ..  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney

 Sent: October-21-07 6:49 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: WD-1002 / F1001B / F1040 Fuse channel rivet holes  

  

   

Hi  

   

Last night I started match drilling the holes in the WD1002 steel weldment that is attached to the firewall. Using the guide holes in the F-1001B as a guide and after clamping the top WD-1002 flange to get the best edge clearance possible, I still only got a 3/32 edge clearance (measured from the edge of the rivet hole) on most of the holes.   

   

Given that that the weldments are steel and not aluminium is this edge clearance sufficient?  

   

The archives indicate that that these parts have been problematic for some. Based on what I read, I knew to be fairly aggressive in clamping the parts to get the most clearance possible.  Interestingly, I did have to shim the side (towards the skin) WD-1002 flanges about a 1/8” to get reasonable edge clearance.  Even so, the maximum edge clearance would be just over 1/8” if the rivets were evenly spaced on the flange. This suggests that 3/16” spacing might be okay in this application.  

   

Personally, I think this is one area where the plans should give the builder a bit of a heads up as to what to do and what to expect.  

   

Any comments or should I talk to the Van’s order desk yet again….  

   

Cheers  

   

Les Kearney  

#40643 – Frustrated in the fuse ..  

   

       [quote][b]

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:37 pm Post subject: WD-1002 / F1001B / F1040 Fuse channel rivet holes

We are overdue for the October Dinner of the NW RV-10 group.  I will like a fire under John Jessen to get all of us together for a fall dinner and discussion.  

   

Thanks,  

   

John  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vernon Smith

 Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 7:36 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: WD-1002 / F1001B / F1040 Fuse channel rivet holes  

  

   

John,

  

 Not "the bad guy", just keeping the rest of us honest. And maybe saving a life or two in the process. Hmm sounds like hero work, but heroes are sometimes miss understood.

  

 Vern Smith (#324 cabin top)

  

 do not archive

 

 

 

       

  

Subject: RE: FW: WD-1002 / F1001B / F1040 Fuse channel rivet holes

 Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 18:55:56 -0700

 From: johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com    

Les, was that Ken Krueger or Ken Scott that quoted for the whole engineering department/ group at VANS?  If you heard that in writing, could you (Please) post it so that others can base their build technique on it as well. Their professional knowledge base and academic training are vastly differing between the two Ken’s.  

   

A 2X rivet diameter to edge distance is a fairly solid and hard rule to avoid both stress cracks and tears on military, civil air carrier and certified general aviation build aeroplanes.  I have both the US Army DOD Structural Manual and the Naval Aviator’s Manuals, The Canadian Bombardier Structural Aircraft Manual along with the FAA AC 43.13. Would anyone else like another Aviation Structural Engineer’s written opinion before proceeding with reduced edge distances? If it is a modern change, I am all for modifying decades old technique.  

   

Gosh, And why is it that I always seem like the bad guy when following an established construction technique?  Must be the weather out here.  Don’t take any of this personally I have to maintain French Canadian designed and built aircraft every night.  Epic Aircraft found it advantageous to move from Oregon to Canada for a most interesting reason.  

   

I am not even going there on the subject of closing gaps with shim material before anchoring skins with solid rivet fasteners.  

   

John Cox - KUAO  

   

   

   

  

       

  

Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Café. Stop by today!   [quote]   [b]

rv10(at)sinkrate.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:33 pm Post subject: WD-1002 / F1001B / F1040 Fuse channel rivet holes

Sounds like a good idea.  Everyone has to bring a picture of their WD-1002 install… J  

   

-Ben  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox

 Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 7:33 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: WD-1002 / F1001B / F1040 Fuse channel rivet holes  

  

   

We are overdue for the October Dinner of the NW RV-10 group.  I will like a fire under John Jessen to get all of us together for a fall dinner and discussion.  

   

Thanks,  

   

John  

           

  

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vernon Smith

 Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 7:36 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: WD-1002 / F1001B / F1040 Fuse channel rivet holes  

  

   

John,

  

 Not "the bad guy", just keeping the rest of us honest. And maybe saving a life or two in the process. Hmm sounds like hero work, but heroes are sometimes miss understood.

  

 Vern Smith (#324 cabin top)

  

 do not archive

 

 

         

  

  

Subject: RE: FW: WD-1002 / F1001B / F1040 Fuse channel rivet holes

 Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 18:55:56 -0700

 From: johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com    

Les, was that Ken Krueger or Ken Scott that quoted for the whole engineering department/ group at VANS?  If you heard that in writing, could you (Please) post it so that others can base their build technique on it as well. Their professional knowledge base and academic training are vastly differing between the two Ken’s.  

   

A 2X rivet diameter to edge distance is a fairly solid and hard rule to avoid both stress cracks and tears on military, civil air carrier and certified general aviation build aeroplanes.  I have both the US Army DOD Structural Manual and the Naval Aviator’s Manuals, The Canadian Bombardier Structural Aircraft Manual along with the FAA AC 43.13. Would anyone else like another Aviation Structural Engineer’s written opinion before proceeding with reduced edge distances? If it is a modern change, I am all for modifying decades old technique.  

   

Gosh, And why is it that I always seem like the bad guy when following an established construction technique?  Must be the weather out here.  Don’t take any of this personally I have to maintain French Canadian designed and built aircraft every night.  Epic Aircraft found it advantageous to move from Oregon to Canada for a most interesting reason.  

   

I am not even going there on the subject of closing gaps with shim material before anchoring skins with solid rivet fasteners.  

   

John Cox - KUAO  

   

   

   

  

         

  

  

Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Café. Stop by today!    	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com   http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
3 	  Quote: 	
		   	
4 	  Quote: 	
		   	
5

       [quote][b]

planesmith(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:10 am Post subject: WD-1002 / F1001B / F1040 Fuse channel rivet holes

If it's anywhere close to North Albany, I'd be happy to open up the shop and give a tour of my project.

  

 Vern Smith (#324 doors and cabin top)

  

 do not archive





  	  Quote: 	
		    Subject: RE: WD-1002 / F1001B / F1040 Fuse channel rivet holes

Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 19:33:27 -0700

From: johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com



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We are overdue for the October Dinner of the NW RV-10 group.  I will like a fire under John Jessen to get all of us together for a fall dinner and discussion. 

  

Thanks, 

  

John 

    

	
Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word scramble challenge with star power. Play Now!

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