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503 Questions...

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david(at)davidlehman.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:23 am Post subject: 503 Questions...



I have a 503 with a belt drive on my Firestar...

Questions:

1. May I run the engine without the prop installed?...

2. What grease should I use in the two drive shaft bearings (fortunately

they have zerks)...

Thanx...

DVD

do not archive

ul15rhb(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:47 pm Post subject: 503 Questions...



Dave,

I'm wondering why you decided to go with a belt drive over the reliable Rotax gear box?

I don't check the list that often and maybe you explained this a while ago.

Ralph

Original Firestar

19 years flying it

-- David Lehman <david(at)davidlehman.net> wrote:

I have a 503 with a belt drive on my Firestar...

Questions:

1. May I run the engine without the prop installed?...

2. What grease should I use in the two drive shaft bearings (fortunately

they have zerks)...

Thanx...

DVD

do not archive

david(at)davidlehman.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:07 pm Post subject: 503 Questions...



Ralph...

It's kinda like "run what you brung"...

I just bought this Firestar and that's what's on it...

David

On 1/5/06, Ralph <ul15rhb(at)juno.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Dave,

I'm wondering why you decided to go with a belt drive over the reliable

Rotax gear box?

I don't check the list that often and maybe you explained this a while

ago.

Ralph

Original Firestar

19 years flying it

-- David Lehman <david(at)davidlehman.net> wrote:

I have a 503 with a belt drive on my Firestar...

Questions:

1. May I run the engine without the prop installed?...

2. What grease should I use in the two drive shaft bearings (fortunately

they have zerks)...

Thanx...

DVD

do not archive

richard(at)bcchapel.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:43 pm Post subject: 503 Questions...



Don't know about the grease. But be careful if you give it any gas, it

will go past the redline quicker than you could imagine.

Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

David Lehman wrote:

I have a 503 with a belt drive on my Firestar...

Questions:

1. May I run the engine without the prop installed?...

2. What grease should I use in the two drive shaft bearings (fortunately

they have zerks)...

Thanx...

DVD

do not archive

ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:39 pm Post subject: 503 Questions...



Dave I wouldnt even think of starting that engine without a prop on it if

your carb is just cracked open a bit it could race beyond red line Be a sharp

pain and a Puff of smoke then you could be looking at purchasing another engine

as far as the Grease for your bearings I would use RED Tacky if you can get

it in your area if not any Premium RB quality grease would be ok

Ellery in Maine

do not archive

david(at)davidlehman.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:46 am Post subject: 503 Questions...



Thanx Richard and Ellery...

I know better than to try and run a "big airplane" engine without a prop,

but I wasn't sure about a "snowmobile" engine...

I'll start looking for the grease...

Thanx again...

DVD

On 1/5/06, ElleryWeld(at)aol.com <ElleryWeld(at)aol.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Dave I wouldnt even think of starting that engine without a prop on it if

your carb is just cracked open a bit it could race beyond red line Be a

sharp

pain and a Puff of smoke then you could be looking at purchasing another

engine

as far as the Grease for your bearings I would use RED Tacky if you can

get

it in your area if not any Premium RB quality grease would be ok

Ellery in Maine

do not archive

do not archive

gtalexander(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:05 am Post subject: 503 Questions...



David:

Had two Quicksilvers with flex drives. On the recommendation of an expert, used white lithium grease. Would also grease it without the prop. Would warm the engine with the prop on, remove the prop and back the idle adjustment (slide stop) out so that the slide would go down as far as it could reducing the idle speed. As I recall, my R503, single carb, pts ign, would run at around 4k rpm under these conditions. Don't over do the grease and don't forget to adjust the idle stop when you put it all back together.

My .02 worth. May not work for you. Take your own chances.

George Alexander

http://gtalexander.home.att.net

DO NOT ARCHIVE

-------------- Original message from David Lehman <david(at)davidlehman.net>: --------------

donghe(at)one-eleven.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:25 am Post subject: 503 Questions...



David,

For a long time fellas have be starting Rotax 503's without a prop...and

nothing but a centrifical clutch hooked to a varible sheave torque convertor

with no probs...just make sure the throttle slide is down and you are

operateing on the idle circuit. Not a big deal to anybody who understands a

snowmobile.

Don Gherardini

OEM.Sales / Engineering dept.

American Honda Engines

Power Equipment Company

CortLand, Illinois

800-626-7326

david(at)davidlehman.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:23 am Post subject: 503 Questions...



Thanx Don...

I'm in "Lovely" Fresno so I'm not very conversant with snowmobiles...

I have to remove my prop to get the Firestar in and out of my garage (wings

folded), but it sounds like I better install it to run the engine in my

driveway...

Thanx...

DVD

On 1/6/06, Don Gherardini <donghe(at)one-eleven.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

David,

For a long time fellas have be starting Rotax 503's without a prop...and

nothing but a centrifical clutch hooked to a varible sheave torque

convertor

with no probs...just make sure the throttle slide is down and you are

operateing on the idle circuit. Not a big deal to anybody who understands

a

snowmobile.

Don Gherardini

OEM.Sales / Engineering dept.

American Honda Engines

Power Equipment Company

CortLand, Illinois

800-626-7326

donghe(at)one-eleven.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:38 am Post subject: 503 Questions...



One more thing David....withn no load on the 503, the 6500 redline could be

exceeded alot with no damage....it is under load and cylinder pressure that

you need to be careful. So dont be afraid to hit the throttle a tad to see

if it will take. But remember this...it will give you no indication of a

correct carb setup running it this way. Once you put the prop on it and you

have a load, it will be all different.

Don Gherardini

OEM.Sales / Engineering dept.

American Honda Engines

Power Equipment Company

CortLand, Illinois

800-626-7326

david(at)davidlehman.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:54 am Post subject: 503 Questions...



Excellent advice, thanx Don...

DVD

On 1/6/06, Don Gherardini <donghe(at)one-eleven.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

One more thing David....withn no load on the 503, the 6500 redline could

be

exceeded alot with no damage....it is under load and cylinder pressure

that

you need to be careful. So dont be afraid to hit the throttle a tad to see

if it will take. But remember this...it will give you no indication of a

correct carb setup running it this way. Once you put the prop on it and

you

have a load, it will be all different.

Don Gherardini

OEM.Sales / Engineering dept.

American Honda Engines

Power Equipment Company

CortLand, Illinois

800-626-7326

	


do not archive

jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:35 pm Post subject: 503 Questions...



| One more thing David....withn no load on the 503, the 6500 redline

could be

| exceeded alot with no damage....

|

| Don Gherardini

Hi Don G/Gang:

You need to explain this exception to exceeding the red line please.

First, the red line on all the Rotax two strokes is 6,800 rpm for 5

minutes, and 6,500 max continuous.

This may be something new, but all I have ever been taught and know of

red lines is just that, do not exceed the red line. Nothing has ever

been mentioned of loaded or unloaded exceptions.

I know there are exceptions for the four strokes and probably the two

strokes also, but can not recite them off the top of my head. This

applies to rpm, egt, cht, oil temp, and for the 582, water temp.

If any of you have any specific questions you would like me to ask

Erick Tucker, instructor for Rotax two and four strokes schools,

please let me know. I will do my best to get him to answer them for

me and report back when I get the answers.

Paul Petty, his pappy-in-law Charley, and I will be attending the 912

course at South Mississippi Light Aircraft the end of this month, in

Lucedale, MS. This will be the third time around for Paul and I.

Reckon we will ever get it right?



One of the best advantages of attending one of these schools is the

additional info one picks up from Erick that is not in the manuals.

Erick is a good instructor and has been the Rotax from the very

beginning. I remember an article in one of the magazines about Erick

and how he was starting up a new company to use Rotax engines for

little airplanes in Vernon, BC. I have been looking for this old mag

during my sorting and throwing operation, but have not been able to

put my finger on it. This would have been in the 1983 time frame.

BTW: Richard Swidersky, I have not forgotten (entirely) about the

Experiment with you and the Flying Stork (his Ultrastar with very long

legs) on the back cover. It will be mailed to you pretty soon, I

hope.

Take care,

john h

MKIII

link(at)cdc.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:12 pm Post subject: 503 Questions...



John,

Could you scan that picture and put it on photoshare. (Ultra stork) Some

of us ultrastar owners and others would find it interesting.

Steve Garvelink

jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:34 pm Post subject: 503 Questions...



Steve/Gang:

Be glad to. Hang on for a few minutes until I can find and scan it.

john

DO NOT ARCHIVE

donghe(at)one-eleven.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:22 pm Post subject: 503 Questions...



HI John....and gang...

Sure I will explain this seemingly wild comment about redline on the 503.

First..I stand corrected on the redline as John mentions...6800...not 6500.

A piston ported 2 cycle...such as the 447/503 Rotax engine has no moving

parts other than the crank, rod, and piston. Unlike rotary valve 2 cycle, or

a reed valved engine or 4 cycle engines there are no valves to float,

pushrods to disengage from rockers or lifters, oil pumps to cavitate or

shear pins to break, worm gears to strip and so on. Much experience in the

snowmobile world with raiseing the exhaust ports and stuffing crankcases ,

expansion chambers and the like have shown us for a long time that these

piston ported Rotaxs will take a lot more RPMS than 6800....I can attest to

snowmobilers running them at 8K all the time, WOT out across the Frozen

lakes and feilds.

This However does not happen under the load factor that a propellor put on

them.

They also cool better when running at the typical ambient temps of

snowmobiling sport.

I also know...from experience...that sitting on a sled and rapping the

throttle of a machine with an souped up torque-convertor that the rpms come

easy before the load is large enough to pull rpms down below redline and ill

effects seldom manifest themselves. Also I might add, the running of these

engines with nothing at all hooked up to the crank never bothered them when

they were in sleds...dont know why it would hurt them now. The Rotax

gearboxs with clutch assemblies and the sprague clutchs many run simulate

the same thing.

Hence, my advice to David that if he wants to attempt to start his engine

with out a prop on it...no damage will occur, and if he slapps throttle to

it once or twice because he wants to hear the pipes rattle...and it goes

above redline with no load on it, not to be bothered too much. IT might not

be all the good for it...but I would bet a years salary that a 503 will run

at 8000 rpms with no load on it alot longer than it will at 6800 loaded to

the max.

Just so no one misunderstands what I am saying here. IF one attempts to do

this with a pitched prop on it, thereby increaseing BMEP to levels and

crankshaft torsion entirely above the design limits...he will likely need an

overhaul in short order.

David.Lehman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 265
Location: "Lovely" Fresno CA

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:35 am Post subject: Re: 503 Questions...



Thanx for all the help...

New carb. bowl gasket should be here from Air Tech today so I can make airplane noise this weekend...

DVD

_________________
ô¿ô

"Both optimists and pessimists contribute to the society. The optimist invents the aeroplane, the pessimist the parachute."

--- George Bernard Shaw

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