Matronics Email Lists Forum Index Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
 
 Get Email Distribution Too!Get Email Distribution Too!    FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Blue Mountain EFIS
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> AeroElectric-List
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
AV8ORJWC



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:09 am    Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

Brent, I think you might be missing something. Many are reading these
posts and wondering the viability of a specific product. Greg does a
sizzling hot job on a web page to promote his products (Marketing
wise)but I have heard static for three years on service, tech support
and product reliability.

It is always great to hear of people who are happy. Knowing if they
have 10 hours or 600 on the system helps establish a benchmark.

I have a close friend that bought the highest end BMA four years ago for
a tandem seat project rebuild. Two years ago, Greg said the equipment
(New and in the box) was value-less and the sub-manufacturers had gone
south. The owner had to pay twice and the aircraft is still yet to fly.

These discussions tap on an important discussion point as firms such as
AFS court larger suitors and companies like OP Technologies sell out to
bigger fish.

My question remains "Who will be here in three years and which products
are well supported for the Experimental Build market. EFIS is grand but
a shakeout is inevitable.

John Cox

--


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:21 am    Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

At 09:53 AM 1/15/2008 -0700, you wrote:

Quote:

Bob,

I respect your opinion but I must make a distinction between designing
systems vs. purchasing high dollar systems that you have really no
practical way of modifying or changing. A system where failure is
common vs. occasional. Most of the issues discussed on this site are
based on simple boiler plate system design that can be tested thoroughly
prior to full use. My fear is people will add these off the shelf
products using the marketing as fact on units that seem to work and
sometimes do for a short period of time, this leading toward a false
sense of security. The bottom line is most of what is reported here is
not opinion but fact of failure regard failure with out systematic data
collection. For example I have experienced more then 20 hard failures
of my BMA system while running side by side with a Chelton non-certified
EFIS and an Advanced Flight System AF engine system with no failures at
all on these unites over a period of 18 months and three hundred hours
of in-flight time. Just to clarify!

Mike

I don't see where I've argued with you. Your
data are first-hand, unarguable facts which
should given due attention by folks who are
making up their own minds as to how the best
investment of $time$ is made for their project.

I didn't intend to come down for or against
Blue Mountain. The preponderance of evidence
in the marketplace is decidedly not in their
favor. My hope is that folks learn sift the
clouds of floobydust that invariably arise
when searching out useful data.

This is especially important when the equipment
is part of a closed loop stabilization and
navigation system. Doing a reliable display
based on rate sensors as opposed to gyros
is an exceedingly non-trivial software task.
Not only is there a need for robust sensing,
interpretation, calculation for valid display,
there's an equally critical task for sensing
and notification of crew when the display is
not valid.

I've been intimately involved in programs that
replaced iron gyros with laser rate sensors
for the autopilots in 0.5M to 4.0M targets
which maneuvered at up to 10Gs! I've watched
those processes. We expended manpower and
taxpayer dollars that would make most of the
low-cost EFIS OBAM aircraft systems look like
crystal sets.

So in no way do I want to trivialize anyone's
offering of hard data. I do want to encourage
folks to make decisions based on hard data
and to sift that data from information that
is more emotional noise than data.

Bob . . .


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
peter(at)sportingaero.com
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:55 am    Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

Henador,

It has nothing to do with military experience, it has to do with the
experience of the designer with systems that have flown and acquired
time in an airborne environment. That environment is very different from
a lab or a car.

There are some useful and useless questions to ask,

Useless: How many colors on the display
Useful: What is the update rate of the display when using the full color
palate?
Useless: How fast is the processor?
Useful: What is the latency from the air data or attitude sensor sensing
a parameter to it being displayed when the system is displaying its most
complex page? If more than 100ms you will notice the lag, it will be
more difficult to fly the airplane than with a faster system).
Useless: How fast does the internal data bus run at, what is the update
rate of the screen?
Useful: How many times a second does the flight data get updated on the
screen when displaying the most complex page? If less than 20Hz
(preferably 40 or 60Hz) you will notice jumpiness in the display.
Useless: What language did you use for coding?
Useful: What precautions did you take with the software and hardware
designs to ensure accurate and reliable data is always presented to the
pilot, and that any data that is unreliable or stale is not displayed?

The point is airplane guys usually understand what is required from a
system to allow a pilot to properly fly the airplane, what kind of
dynamic response is desireable, and where to optimise the system at the
design stage. Electronics guys might be tempted to use a better
resolution screen, but not consider updates rates or latency in the
basic systems architecture. Errors at the design stage are difficult to
overcome during testing and development.

Any company who claims you should buy their product because it has a big
display that shows lots of data doesn't understand the task that display
will have to perform! If they claim that the basic flight data is
updated much more quickly than the graphics intensive map or terrain
data, then that would make much more sense.

It is really difficult for the average homebuilder to get a good
assessment of the real world performance that might be offered by any
particular EFIS or similar. There are very few comparative evaluations.
One of the only factors is the skill and background of the folks who
designed and built the equipment.

Peter

PS If anyone can answer the above questions for Blue Mountain (or any
other EFIS) I, for one, would be interested.

--


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:09 pm    Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

At 07:52 PM 1/15/2008 +0000, you wrote:

Quote:

<peter(at)sportingaero.com>

Henador,

It has nothing to do with military experience, it has to do with the
experience of the designer with systems that have flown and acquired
time in an airborne environment. That environment is very different from
a lab or a car.

There are some useful and useless questions to ask,

Useless: How many colors on the display
Useful: What is the update rate of the display when using the full color
palate?
Useless: How fast is the processor?
Useful: What is the latency from the air data or attitude sensor sensing
a parameter to it being displayed when the system is displaying its most
complex page? If more than 100ms you will notice the lag, it will be
more difficult to fly the airplane than with a faster system).
Useless: How fast does the internal data bus run at, what is the update
rate of the screen?
Useful: How many times a second does the flight data get updated on the
screen when displaying the most complex page? If less than 20Hz
(preferably 40 or 60Hz) you will notice jumpiness in the display.
Useless: What language did you use for coding?
Useful: What precautions did you take with the software and hardware
designs to ensure accurate and reliable data is always presented to the
pilot, and that any data that is unreliable or stale is not displayed?

The point is airplane guys usually understand what is required from a
system to allow a pilot to properly fly the airplane, what kind of
dynamic response is desireable, and where to optimise the system at the
design stage. Electronics guys might be tempted to use a better
resolution screen, but not consider updates rates or latency in the
basic systems architecture. Errors at the design stage are difficult to
overcome during testing and development.

Any company who claims you should buy their product because it has a big
display that shows lots of data doesn't understand the task that display
will have to perform! If they claim that the basic flight data is
updated much more quickly than the graphics intensive map or terrain
data, then that would make much more sense.

It is really difficult for the average homebuilder to get a good
assessment of the real world performance that might be offered by any
particular EFIS or similar. There are very few comparative evaluations.
One of the only factors is the skill and background of the folks who
designed and built the equipment.

Peter

Exactly!

To your list of questions I would add:

Has your product been designed to comply with design goals
set forth in DO-160? If so, which levels and which chapters?
Have any tests been conducted to confirm compliance?

Does your product feature any form of data integrity
monitoring? Does the software monitor internally or
externally developed data for reasonableness? If any
item becomes suspect, how is it handled in displays
to the pilot?

Are there provisions for useful if degraded performance
if some feature of normal operations is no longer
reliable?

Are there any maneuvers that exceed the sensor/software
ability to deduce true conditions? If the system falls
out of bed, how fast and under what conditions might
the user expect the system to get stood up again?

There are probably more questions but these came to
mind first. Peter is right, the average homebuilder
should not be expected to know enough to ask such
questions or understand the answers. But these ARE
questions that should be addressed in detail in the
product's published specifications, installation
and service data. No details as to circuit design,
software or even sources of components need be revealed.

All these questions go to the designer's ability to
do the job right and the manufacturer's ability
and willingness to support it. The capable and
honorable supplier will have no problems with
answering them. These are exactly the kind of
questions I'm expected to answer for clients
. . . clients who couldn't care less about the
gee-whiz and do care a lot about delivering
to customer's expectations at a price he/she
is pleased to pay.

Bob . . .


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
sam.marlow



Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 99

PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:06 pm    Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

No, my apologies, just tired of of vendors that stretch the truth, to sell there junk. You can find the answer to your questions if you read between the lines here on this fourm. These are the people that have been at your crossroads in life and taken both roads, at one time or another.
Sam

---- Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

=============


Sam, the advice on this list sometimes gets pretty ridiculous, like telling me to buy an EFIS that I don't need. What are you, some kind of control freak?

Henador

---


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:05 pm    Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

Mike,

I know you're not trying to be rude, but please go back and read what I said again. Nowhere does it say that I am in the market for an EFIS, BMA or whatever. Nowhere does it say that I am condoning BMA products. I did say that I've talked to their salespeople at airshows, and they seem to know what they're talking about. This does NOT amount to my condoning their products. Anybody can talk a good talk. My post was to contradict Peter about military guys and why companies get in trouble and nothing else.

Have a wonderful evening, Mike and Peter and Sam.

Henador

---


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
richard(at)talbots.net.au
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:19 am    Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

I don't personally own a BMA unit but I have certainly evaluated every competitor out there. There are a few observations I would make about their top of the line product:

<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Until recently very few of the avionics shops would sell it. Several privately told me to consider why that was but did not actually give me a specific reason.
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>As far as I am aware only one is openly selling BMA stuff today. That same person told me at Oshkosh several years ago that he wouldn’t sell it and recommended another product. Times change and commercial realities change that is for sure, but has the reason for the original decision changed? I don’t know.
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Second hand BMA stuff seems to come on the market frequently. I have not seen this occur with too much other gear that is to all intents and purposes the latest model.
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Stories abound if you ask about of people that are not happy with the product, many continue to swear by it though. Some must have had good service, some may not wish to conclude they spent a lot of money on something that is not perfect. Some are happy pushing the envelope or investing in the technology. However other vendors exist that no one has a bad thing to say about. Surely this would make many people’s decision easy if they are looking for a polished product. However, I would say this is experimental aviation and each has their own reason for purchasing.

What really convinced me is the method these guys use to develop and ship code. This is something I am very well qualified to comment on as I work in the software industry and have been doing so for many years. From discussions with them and observation of the activities on their message board I would not fly their latest code under the IFR. This was my priority and it was a deal breaker for me. I could ask why people buy these units when they do not want to fly NVFR or IFR, but that would be a whole other can of worms.

However, If you own BMA hardware, or you want to buy it, please do not take offense. I support the nature of experimental aviation and your continuing investment in the technology will no doubt lead to competition and improvements in the marketplace for everyone. BMA is not for me, for the reasons I outlined above. If you want to buy it, then that is cool too. Good luck with your project and happy flying!

Richard
[quote][b]


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
n395v



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:58 am    Post subject: Re: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

Quote:
Just Curious, how many successfull flight hours do you have behind your BMA?



About 700hrs.

Quote:

What I think is funny, is that people who don?t have one want to support it, or people who spent all the money they had are stuck with it and are forced to love it.



Yeah,

My first two units sucked so bad I felt compelled to buy 3 more guess I'm just lucky that my 5 units are the only ones in the world that work .


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

_________________
Milt
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mlas(at)cox.net
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:04 am    Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

Milt,

You must live next door to the shop or married into the family. Smile

Mike

--


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
n395v



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:25 am    Post subject: Re: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

mlas(at)cox.net wrote:
Milt,

You must live next door to the shop or married into the family. Smile

Mike

--


Nah! they are way too ugly to marry but it is a short flight to the shop.
In all seriousness though I am lucky in that my units have functioned well and I have had a pleasant experience when interacting with them.

I do know many BMA owners who rightfully are really pissed off at them and have had nothing but trouble with their units and have had anything but a pleasant experience in attempting to obtain service. Also know a lot of BMA owners who got the unit, slapped it in their plane and tried to use it without ever looking at the install manual, installed them incorrectly nand then raised hell with BMA.

I think currently BMAs major problem is support for the older units. They do not have enough staff to fully bring the Gen 4s online and support the gen1s and 3s at the same time. Their G4 launch was a real nightmare for those who needed their units in a timely fashion. (timely meaning on the date promised)
I do not think BMA or its owners are unethical or do not care about their customers I think they are exceedingly brilliant techno geeks who hadn't a clue on how to run a company and had no knowledge of consumer relations.

Hopefully they have learned a lesson and hopefully will survive the past and continue to grow.

While I am a happy customer and an unashamed supporter I do recognize the problems they have had and the problems they still have.


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

_________________
Milt
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:02 am    Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

Guys, I don't own an EFIS of any kind. I have no personal interest in any of this except in the ad hominem attacks that are escalating daily. Bob created this site for information exchange, how about keeping it that way and leave the personal insults and disingenuous apologies to political hacks. Enough, please.

Rick Girard

On Jan 16, 2008 9:01 AM, Mike <mlas(at)cox.net (mlas(at)cox.net)> wrote:
[quote] --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike" <mlas(at)cox.net (mlas(at)cox.net)>

Milt,

You must live next door to the shop or married into the family. Smile

Mike

--


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
mlas(at)cox.net
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:36 am    Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

Rick,

Go look up reading between the lines….  The intended reader got it!

Mike

--


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:52 am    Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

Rick,

The postings aren't necessarily insults and attacks; they are just raw data. We're all grown ups. It would be nice, but not necessary, that posting be routed through a "pleasantness filter", but I suspect everyone is able to do their own receipt inspection of the information and recalibrate it as necessary. Sugar coating is best left to cakes and donuts. I've seen postings, pro and con, on the BMA matter and take it all at face value as I'm sure others do.

Bob prefers posting be tilted more toward facts and conclusions based on repeatable data. Unfortunately, in this matter, its virtually impossible to conduct objective testing that's useful for the potential buyer/user. In this case, we are stuck with reliance on anecdotal observations and subjective opinions. I personally don't put great weight in any one anecdotal observation, but as the observations, objective or subjective, continue to pile up on one side of the ledger, then at some point I decide that yes, that may be useful information.

Even if some of the postings were quite blunt, even harsh, I don't perceive it as a coordinated attack against any individual, company or product. If there happens to be a large number of unhappy users, then that is the problem of the Seller and his product, not of the individuals who posted their personal experience, even if in colorful and direct language. So, the open exchanges of information is commission no great sin, but useful information has been exchanged that can be used as seen appropriate.

Chuck Jensen

--


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
lists(at)stevet.net
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:52 am    Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

Couldn't agree more. I'm totally tired of the BMA bashing. Let's get
back to the basics.
On Jan 16, 2008, at 7:58 AM, Richard Girard wrote:

Quote:
Guys, I don't own an EFIS of any kind. I have no personal interest
in any of this except in the ad hominem attacks that are escalating
daily. Bob created this site for information exchange, how about
keeping it that way and leave the personal insults and disingenuous
apologies to political hacks. Enough, please.

Rick Girard


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
Speedy11(at)aol.com
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:57 pm    Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

Henador Titzoff,
Regarding your statement below - you are wrong.
But, you have a really cool name.
Had you been good enough to join the military, you could have been king of the call signs!
What aircraft are you flying/building?
Regards,
Stan Sutterfield
USAF, Ret
Do not archive
Quote:
Being a military guy has nothing to do with
it unless you want to pay 85% slouches and 15% good guys to get the job done.




Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.
[quote][b]


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
rv9jim(at)juno.com
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:26 am    Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

Hi Stan,
His reference must be of the "civilian" world. I run a small
business and with all the customer interface, I can verify the 85 / 15
do'ers and riders. I think he is overly optimistic on the 85 /15, I
think it is really 90 / 10.
Jim Nelson
Retired: US Army (aviation)

do not archive


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:25 am    Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

Jim,

The 90:10 ratio of spear carriers to spear throwers is about right.

Chuck Jensen

Do Not Archive

--


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
rampil



Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:27 am    Post subject: Re: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

Hi All,

This thread about BMA has made for interesting reading over the past few
days. I've enjoyed it and feel modestly motivated to weigh in.

I am a BMA customer, in fact, one of the first E/1 black plastic boxes came to
me. Why did I choose it? Features for price, an analysis that, in my
eyes is as true today as it was 6 years ago. I upgraded to the gold box
when it was available, and just recently replaced it with a Gen4 E/2. Yes,
I paid the freight and kept going with BMA.

The original up to the Gen3 models got a bad rep for what I consider a
poor reason. The original schema was completely flexible in its input
configuration. That meant for people like me with a rotax, could use
the probes that came with the engine, any probes would work. They
just needed to be calibrated, a concept it turns out in practice was
foreign to many builders, "system integrators (I think panel builders
is a far more accurate description BTW)", and especially non-building
owners of experimental aircraft. It turns out, most of the general aviation
never calibrates anything except the mandated encoder. This is really
sloppy practice for non-mated sensor / indicators, especially when they
are non mil or medical grade. My little experience informs me that
you cant expect better than 10%, maybe 20% accuracy in an automotive
sensor unless you calibrate it to the indicator. How many people
calibrate their oil temp and pressure probes on their RV? Not many.
Does the 10% really matter, not really in most applications. But the
BMA required calibration. The BMA also had its ADCs outside the
engine compartment and the repeated warnings about low resistance
gounds to the battery and engine block were apparently inadequate
for many people. Digital avionics and low level voltage signals just require
more care in grounding and layout than older analog systems, especially
in composite airframes (like mine). I will certainly grant you that the
manuals are a bit sparse, but then I always found that the telephone worked for me.

For what Greg has told me, most problematic installations eventually work
once external wiring errors are caught and corrected. The BMA guys
sought to simplify installation wiring by mandating a fixed set of sensors,
none of which are unipolar and return back through the engine block.
Wiring is now much simpler as I can attest in my own install last month.
Calibration is no longer needed. I think that BMA will be out with a skin
for the Rotax engines soon so I can integrate the VDO sensors built in
to the engine.

The stuff works and I believe it provides the most advanced EFIS functions
for the price. It is also among the simplest to use in flight.

So there have been some problems with the company. I see these kinds
of issues in IT all the time. Greg chose the brand-new at the time SISC
CPU chip for Gen 1-2. Many thought SISC would win out the future of
computing over CISC chips like the Pentium. It was faster and cheaper
right up until SISC guys went out of business. No more parts. No
evolution of SISC. Technology moves fast, airplane building slow.
I bought early, so do most. Some get more burned than others. Anyone
want a Mode S transponder? ANyone want a 430, I heard the WAAS
upgrade will be simple and very cheap!

Most of Gen3 features worked out the door, but some did not. Some
worked for some owners and not for others. More strenuous beta testing
might help. Again not very different for many vendors from airframe kits
to headsets. Ever hear of ADs?

I don't work for Greg, et al, I'm just a customer who has appreciated life
on the bleeding edge with my experimental aircraft. You might even
find me at the BMA booth at SnF talking about my experience in using
the EFIS for nearly 4 years. I am always delighted to talk to fellow
listers Wink

Cheers


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

_________________
Ira N224XS
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Speedy11(at)aol.com
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:49 am    Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

Ira,
Nice response. And, in my opinion, accurate.
Stan Sutterfield

Quote:
Hi All,

This thread about BMA has made for interesting reading over the past few
days. I've enjoyed it and feel modestly motivated to weigh in.

I am a BMA customer, in fact, one of the first E/1 black plastic boxes came to
me. Why did I choose it? Features for price, an analysis that, in my
eyes is as true today as it was 6 years ago. I upgraded to the gold box
when it was available, and just recently replaced it with a Gen4 E/2. Yes,
I paid the freight and kept going with BMA.

The original up to the Gen3 models got a bad rep for what I consider a
poor reason. The original schema was completely flexible in its input
configuration. That meant for people like me with a rotax, could use
the probes that came with the engine, any probes would work. They
just needed to be calibrated, a concept it turns out in practice was
foreign to many builders, "system integrators (I think panel builders
is a far more accurate description BTW)", and especially non-building
owners of experimental aircraft. It turns out, most of the general aviation
never calibrates anything except the mandated encoder. This is really
sloppy practice for non-mated sensor / indicators, especially when they
are non mil or medical grade. My little experience informs me that
you cant expect better than 10%, maybe 20% accuracy in an automotive
sensor unless you calibrate it to the indicator. How many people
calibrate their oil temp and pressure probes on their RV? Not many.
Does the 10% really matter, not really in most applications. But the
BMA required calibration. The BMA also had its ADCs outside the
engine compartment and the repeated warnings about low resistance
gounds to the battery and engine block were apparently inadequate
for many people. Digital avionics and low level voltage signals just require
more care in grounding and layout than older analog systems, especially
in composite airframes (like mine). I will certainly grant you that the
manuals are a bit sparse, but then I always found that the telephone worked for
me.

For what Greg has told me, most problematic installations eventually work
once external wiring errors are caught and corrected. The BMA guys
sought to simplify installation wiring by mandating a fixed set of sensors,
none of which are unipolar and return back through the engine block.
Wiring is now much simpler as I can attest in my own install last month.
Calibration is no longer needed. I think that BMA will be out with a skin
for the Rotax engines soon so I can integrate the VDO sensors built in
to the engine.

The stuff works and I believe it provides the most advanced EFIS functions
for the price. It is also among the simplest to use in flight.

So there have been some problems with the company. I see these kinds
of issues in IT all the time. Greg chose the brand-new at the time SISC
CPU chip for Gen 1-2. Many thought SISC would win out the future of
computing over CISC chips like the Pentium. It was faster and cheaper
right up until SISC guys went out of business. No more parts. No
evolution of SISC. Technology moves fast, airplane building slow.
I bought early, so do most. Some get more burned than others. Anyone
want a Mode S transponder? ANyone want a 430, I heard the WAAS
upgrade will be simple and very cheap!

Most of Gen3 features worked out the door, but some did not. Some
worked for some owners and not for others. More strenuous beta testing
might help. Again not very different for many vendors from airframe kits
to headsets. Ever hear of ADs?

I don't work for Greg, et al, I'm just a customer who has appreciated life
on the bleeding edge with my experimental aircraft. You might even
find me at the BMA booth at SnF talking about my experience in using
the EFIS for nearly 4 years.  I am always delighted to talk to fellow
listers Wink

Cheers

--------
Ira N224XS




Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.
[quote][b]


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
rampil



Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:35 am    Post subject: Re: Blue Mountain EFIS Reply with quote

Sorry for the confusion,
After medical school, RISC became SISC for me Wink


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

_________________
Ira N224XS
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> AeroElectric-List All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group