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Mag failure at mag-check
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Lynn Matteson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:27 pm    Post subject: Mag failure at mag-check Reply with quote

I had another "mag-out" during a recent mag-check the other day. I
said screw it, and flew it home with only one mag firing. (No point
in getting into the wisdom of this move...I know it was stupid) The
point is, has anybody else had any problems with losing a mag, or are
you all changing the rotors and caps at the suggested hourly
intervals, and gluing the rotors on?

The second question is, what has been the condition of the rotors
that you've removed? Are the rotors all wallowed out where they mount
to the distributor shaft?

I checked the rotor in the other mag and found it exactly as I had
installed it many (can't recall how many) hours ago. So I now know
that my rotor installation procedure is good, and both rotors now
have been installed using the same procedure.

Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/470+ hrs


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Float Flyr



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:35 pm    Post subject: Mag failure at mag-check Reply with quote

Lynn:
Don't you keep a technical log on your plane?? I keep one on my plane
similar to the same logs that are kept on certified units, so I can tell how
long components have been in service. I also keep the engine log. Once I
get the 912 running well I'll probably sell the 582 FWF complete with the
engine logs which describe all the maintenance on the engine since I've
owned it.

Sounds like a lot of paper work but really it's not too much and I does tell
me what I've done and to one extent or the other where to look for problems
as the arise.

Noel

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:20 pm    Post subject: Mag failure at mag-check Reply with quote

Lynn,
I have about 420 hours on my 3300 in the last 25 months and no mag issues at all (in fact no issues of any kind). I replaced the caps and rotors at 250 hours not because of problems, but because the engine manual calls for them to be replaced at 200 hours.  When removed, both caps and rotors were working great and showed no abnormal wear at the 250 hour point. I feel they could have gone to 500 hours with no problems, but I believe in preventative maintenance. I change oil and filter at 25 to 30 hours and plugs at 100 hours. As you know, all these replaceable parts on the Jabiru are inexpensive and readily available at auto parts stores.
Blue Skies,
Buz Rich

Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
[quote][b]


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Lynn Matteson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:13 pm    Post subject: Mag failure at mag-check Reply with quote

I keep one, but just didn't have it here when I got the urge to write
about the recent failure. I'll get the numbers tomorrow, maybe, and
post them then.

Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/470+ hrs
On Feb 5, 2008, at 7:31 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:

[quote]
<noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>

Lynn:
Don't you keep a technical log on your plane?? I keep one on my plane
similar to the same logs that are kept on certified units, so I can
tell how
long components have been in service. I also keep the engine log.
Once I
get the 912 running well I'll probably sell the 582 FWF complete
with the
engine logs which describe all the maintenance on the engine since
I've
owned it.

Sounds like a lot of paper work but really it's not too much and I
does tell
me what I've done and to one extent or the other where to look for
problems
as the arise.

Noel

--


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Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM
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Lynn Matteson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:57 pm    Post subject: Mag failure at mag-check Reply with quote

Thanks, Buz-
I changed my first set of caps and rotors at 237 hours, and both
rotors were loose. I didn't glue the replacements (Bosch) on, and in
time, both became loose. I've finally found replacement parts that
I'm happy with...Standard Brand caps, and Daiichi rotors from Car
Quest. I've now got the set-up I'm happy with, and time will tell if
the epoxy is the secret to holding the rotors on, and allow the
rotors to "live out their lives" like they should. I'm not cheap,
it's just a pain in the rump to change them with the limited room
that I have.
Personally, I feel that only 200 hours for rotors is way out of
line...they should last at least twice that, if not more. I follow
the 25-30 hrs for oil changes and filters, though.

Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/470+ hrs
On Feb 5, 2008, at 8:17 PM, N1BZRich(at)aol.com wrote:

Quote:
Lynn,
I have about 420 hours on my 3300 in the last 25 months and no
mag issues at all (in fact no issues of any kind). I replaced the
caps and rotors at 250 hours not because of problems, but because
the engine manual calls for them to be replaced at 200 hours. When
removed, both caps and rotors were working great and showed no
abnormal wear at the 250 hour point. I feel they could have gone
to 500 hours with no problems, but I believe in preventative
maintenance. I change oil and filter at 25 to 30 hours and plugs
at 100 hours. As you know, all these replaceable parts on the
Jabiru are inexpensive and readily available at auto parts stores.
Blue Skies,
Buz Rich

Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL
Music.
www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List _-
www.matronics.com/contribution _-
============================================================


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Clive J



Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 340
Location: UK

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:32 am    Post subject: Mag failure at mag-check Reply with quote

The 2200 and 3300 rotor arms are different parts. The 3300 is more
upright looking, the 2200 a lot flatter.

I'm not sure about rotor arm issues with 3300s maybe other 3300 owners
can let us know?

I have experienced the same issues as Lynn, lost a mag during pre take
off check last month on my Jabiru SP but was also close to home so flew
back on the other one (the airfield I was at was Baltic), I used to fly
a single ignition Rotax and it was only 15 minutes....

The problem on inspection was indeed the rotor arm and to be frank it
had been advertising it'self as it did last time one got loose on me.
Whilst in the cruise every now and again there is a barely peceptible
hesitation in the smooth running. Problem is it's several hundred hours
between when I've had it so I don't readily recognise it phenomena (the
wife said after she had as well). In the past I've picked it us when one
was loose as it got worse but still worked on the check. This time 150
hrs from new when it was glued on.

Cause as always the metal spring clip had failed. A bit of corrosion and
it was in 2 pieces. Genuine Bosch parts. Haven't opened the other one
yet but will post it's condition when I do. Some anti corrosive spray
would be good but then that won't help with the glue. Didn't show up
last time I had the caps off ~50 hrs back.

Regards, Clive
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Lynn Matteson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:18 am    Post subject: Mag failure at mag-check Reply with quote

Clive-
Now that you mentioned it, one of my original metal clips was broken,
too.

Oh, by the way, I drilled 4 holes around the skirt of the rotor, in
line with the interior grooves in the rotor, and when I epoxy the
rotors on, the epoxy oozes out of the holes and forms a "rivet" of
sorts, helping to hold the rotors on. It may be overkill, but I'd
rather be safe than sorry. Incidentally, my original rotors were both
sloppy loose when I first inspected them at 237 hrs.

During the recent repair, I looked at the "good" side and it was
holding just fine. When I first did the hole drilling thing, I had
decided that if that didn't hold, that I would use a Dremel tool and
grind a few shallow pockets into the side of the distributor shaft,
so that the epoxy could really get a bite onto the shaft. So far that
hasn't been necessary.
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/470+ hrs
On Feb 6, 2008, at 4:29 AM, James, Clive R wrote:

Quote:

<clive.james(at)uk.bp.com>

Cause as always the metal spring clip had failed. A bit of
corrosion and
it was in 2 pieces. Genuine Bosch parts. Haven't opened the other one
yet but will post it's condition when I do. Some anti corrosive spray
would be good but then that won't help with the glue. Didn't show up
last time I had the caps off ~50 hrs back.

Regards, Clive



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:23 am    Post subject: Mag failure at mag-check Reply with quote

In a message dated 2/6/2008 8:18:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, lynnmatt(at)jps.net writes:
Quote:
I epoxy the
rotors on, the epoxy oozes out of the holes and forms a "rivet" of
sorts, helping to hold the rotors on.


Lynn,
How do you get them off when they need to be changed nest time? What am I missing here?
Buz

Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
[quote][b]


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donmorrisey



Joined: 17 Mar 2007
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:51 am    Post subject: Mag failure at mag-check Reply with quote

Lynn:

As someone who is very close to installing my 3300, I am curious how, after gluing or epoxying the rotors on, they then get removed the next time around?

Thanks. Don...

www.donsbushcaddy.com
Don Morrisey's Skunkworks


> From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net
Quote:
Subject: Re: Mag failure at mag-check
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 08:15:23 -0500
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com

--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

Clive-
Now that you mentioned it, one of my original metal clips was broken,
too.

Oh, by the way, I drilled 4 holes around the skirt of the rotor, in
line with the interior grooves in the rotor, and when I epoxy the
rotors on, the epoxy oozes out of the holes and forms a "rivet" of
sorts, helping to hold the rotors on. It may be overkill, but I'd
rather be safe than sorry. Incidentally, my original rotors were both
sloppy loose when I first inspected them at 237 hrs.

During the recent repair, I looked at the "good" side and it was
holding just fine. When I first did the hole drilling thing, I had
decided that if that didn't hold, that I would use a Dremel tool and
grind a few shallow pockets into the side of the distributor shaft,
so that the epoxy could really get a bite onto the shaft. So far that
hasn't been necessary.


Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/470+ hrs


On Feb 6, 2008, at 4:29 AM, James, Clive R wrote:

> --> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "James, Clive R"
> <clive.james(at)uk.bp.com>
>
> Cause as always the metal spring clip had failed. A bit of
> corrosion and
> it was in 2 pieces. Genuine Bosch parts. Haven't opened the other one
> yet but will post it's condition when I do. Some anti corrosive spray
> would be good but then that won't help with the glue. Didn't show up
> last time I had the caps off ~50 hrs back.
>
> Regards, Clive
>

&gt=====================

Quote:




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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:01 am    Post subject: Mag failure at mag-check Reply with quote

Lynn,

Are you sure it's a rotor problem (though rotors loose on the distributor shaft certainly need fixed) and not a coil problem.

I follow a mainentance program with numbers close to those below for a total of 312 hours. Since 285 hours I have had to replace both coils. They would work and then not work. Internmittent in operation. Heat, or at least a hot day in the fall, broke down the left coil even though I have cool air blasting on it. The right coil left about seven hours ago after it would: first, fail to show an RPM drop on the mag check, second, completely failing during a mag check. I should have suspected it because of rough running and vibration during the previous four or five takeoffs.

Your coil may check out on the multi-tester but break down under use. My engine is an old (serial number 051) 3300. It had coils with black cases and grey molding at the end. New coils have different appearance.

Glad problem is fixed but at $200.80 a pop I felt rather taken advatage of.. heck, it's just some car coil in all likeiyhood.

BTW, the original rotors were tight when I replaced them and the new rotors stay tight - checked them when the rough running was encountered.

cheers jeff

[quote] I have about 420 hours on my 3300 in the last 25 months and no mag issues at all (in fact no issues of any kind). I replaced the caps and rotors at 250 hours not because of problems, but because the engine manual calls for them to be replaced at 200 hours. When removed, both caps and rotors were working great and showed no abnormal wear at the 250 hour point. I feel they could have gone to 500 hours with no problems, but I believe in preventative maintenance. I change oil and filter at 25 to 30 hours and plugs at 100 hours. As you know, all these replaceable parts on the Jabiru are inexpensive and readily available at auto parts stores.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:28 am    Post subject: Mag failure at mag-check Reply with quote

As someone who is very close to installing my 3300, I am curious how, after gluing or epoxying the rotors on, they then get removed the next time around?

Thanks. Don...

Don,

I would recommend (take that for what it's worth) that with the 3300 you need not "glue" them on. The rotors should be checked before you install by dropping the caps and tugging on them. If loose, then exercise a stiff push onto the shaft to see if perhaps they were not seated in the first place.

When I replaced rotors at ~ 275 hours the old ones were tight and the new ones took considerable effort to push on shaft.

cheers jeff
[quote][b]


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:57 am    Post subject: Mag failure at mag-check Reply with quote

I replaced my factory installed distributor caps and rotors last July at 264 hobbs hours. (about 200 tach hours). The rotors had to be forcefully removed as they were very tight to the shaft - no indications of wear.

I had one dist cap (L/H I think) that was showing distress and high wear in the center electrode "carbon button" and the rotor's corresponding pickup had arcing type wear indications. There were no indications of any problems during mag checks.

The replaced rotors and caps were procured from Jab USA.

The new rotors (Bosch GB73 made in Australia) were very, very snug fit to the shafts and I did not use any adhesive. Current hobbs time on engine about 350 hrs.

To date, the only work done on the engine has been routine scheduled type maintenance and minor JSBs which are easily accomplished.

Love my Jab. Engine is smooth running and easy to start, although at my lowest start temp to date (Minus 11 C OAT as per AWOS and my cockpit OAT indicator), the engine did die after about 5 seconds after start and had to be restarted.

Tony Graziano
Jab 3300A S/N33A644; Zodiac 601XL
---------------------
has anybody else had any problems with losing a mag, or are
you all changing the rotors and caps at the suggested hourly
intervals, and gluing the rotors on?

The second question is, what has been the condition of the rotors
that you've removed? Are the rotors all wallowed out where they mount
to the distributor shaft?

I checked the rotor in the other mag and found it exactly as I had
installed it many (can't recall how many) hours ago. So I now know
that my rotor installation procedure is good, and both rotors now
have been installed using the same procedure.

Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/470+ hrs

[quote][b]


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Lynn Matteson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:16 am    Post subject: Mag failure at mag-check Reply with quote

Don and Buz-

Since I began to use the epoxy, I haven't had to remove a rotor. The
first one I did...the left...was about 50 hours ago (and checked 1-2
hours ago), the second one...the right...just 1-2 hours ago. When it
comes time to change rotors next time, I'll heat the rotor with a
heat gun and it *should* loosen and come right off. I'm betting that
the epoxy will hold the rotor so well that changing will become a non-
issue. After all, what can go wrong with a rotor under normal (read
automotive) circumstances? It just sits there going around and
around, with no load or stress on it. Granted, the jumping spark
*can* erode the tip, but I've touched auto rotors up with a file, and
put them back into service. The button contact area sees no spark
jump, and should last forever as well, given a slight buffing with
steel wool, for example. To my mind, the 200 hour life span of these
parts is based on the "wobble factor"...if it doesn't wobble, why
should it fail? I'm certainly not advocating NOT changing rotors and
caps, I'd just like to see someone (read: a Jabiru dealer, mechanic,
or engineer) point out the real reason for the suggested time frame.
When I changed rotors the first time around, due to a distributor oil
seal leak, I scoffed at having to glue them on, and I learned my
lesson by having them wobble and fail early, so I'm certainly willing
to learn from someone who has the real story. In the meantime,
weather permitting, I'll continue to log hours on my engine, and do
rotor checks at every other oil change and see what
happens...hopefully NOT "famous last words" : - )

Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/470+ hrs

On Feb 6, 2008, at 10:49 AM, Don Morrisey wrote:

Quote:
Lynn:

As someone who is very close to installing my 3300, I am curious
how, after gluing or epoxying the rotors on, they then get removed
the next time around?

Thanks. Don...

www.donsbushcaddy.com
Don Morrisey's Skunkworks


> From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net
> Subject: Re: Mag failure at mag-check
> Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 08:15:23 -0500
> To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
>
>
<lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
>
> Clive-
> Now that you mentioned it, one of my original metal clips was
broken,
> too.
>
> Oh, by the way, I drilled 4 holes around the skirt of the rotor, in
> line with the interior grooves in the rotor, and when I epoxy the
> rotors on, the epoxy oozes out of the holes and forms a "rivet" of
> sorts, helping to hold the rotors on. It may be overkill, but I'd
> rather be safe than sorry. Incidentally, my original rotors were
both
> sloppy loose when I first inspected them at 237 hrs.
>
> During the recent repair, I looked at the "good" side and it was
> holding just fine. When I first did the hole drilling thing, I had
> decided that if that didn't hold, that I would use a Dremel tool and
> grind a few shallow pockets into the side of the distributor shaft,
> so that the epoxy could really get a bite onto the shaft. So far
that
> hasn't been necessary.
>
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Grass Lake, Michigan
> Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
> flying w/470+ hrs
>
>
> On Feb 6, 2008, at 4:29 AM, James, Clive R wrote:
>
> >
> > <clive.james(at)uk.bp.com>
> >
> > Cause as always the metal spring clip had failed. A bit of
> > corrosion and
> > it was in 2 pieces. Genuine Bosch parts. Haven't opened the
other one
> > yet but will post it's condition when I do. Some anti corrosive
spray
> > would be good but then that won't help with the glue. Didn't
show up
> > last time I had the caps off ~50 hrs back.
> >
> > Regards, Clive
> >
>
>=====================
>
>
>
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:28 pm    Post subject: Mag failure at mag-check Reply with quote

Lynn
Thanks for the input. I am unaware of any time frame to replace the Jab
3300 engine rotor. I looked in the service manual for the engine and it
says to inspect the distributer and rotor each 50 hours but not to replace.
Where did you get info about when to replace the rotor and what was the time
frame. My engine has 120 hrs on it without problems.

Ivan
Phoenix, AZ
---


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:31 pm    Post subject: Mag failure at mag-check Reply with quote

The instructions in the Jabiru manual now specify an inspection on a regular
basis and if the caps & rotor look good they need not be replaced. In the
more distant past there was a statement (maybe in one of the early Jaba Chat
newsletters) about a service life of 200 hours or two years.

Pete Krotje
Jabiru USA Sport Aircraft, LLC

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Lynn Matteson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:22 pm    Post subject: Mag failure at mag-check Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure that I read it right here...or on the Yahoo Jabiru
list, I'm not sure. I went back and looked through my mail about the
time that I had the leaking dist shaft seals, thinking maybe that
could have triggered a response from "a person in the know", but
couldn't find the reference.

Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/470+ hrs

On Feb 6, 2008, at 4:25 PM, Ivan wrote:

Quote:


Lynn
Thanks for the input. I am unaware of any time frame to replace
the Jab 3300 engine rotor. I looked in the service manual for the
engine and it says to inspect the distributer and rotor each 50
hours but not to replace. Where did you get info about when to
replace the rotor and what was the time frame. My engine has 120
hrs on it without problems.

Ivan
Phoenix, AZ



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:53 pm    Post subject: Mag failure at mag-check Reply with quote

Lynn
The neat thing that I love about the Jabiru so far is the good documentation
and Pete's input. I can go to the service manual and know exactly what I
have to check, how to do it and how often. I felt a little unsupported in
those areas when I was running my Rotax.

Ivan
---


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Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 65
Location: NEW ZEALAND

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:07 pm    Post subject: Mag failure at mag-check Reply with quote

I have read 200 hrs somewhere on the Jabiru CD - Replaced ours at 300
because cap was loose, Have done another 600 since with no trouble -
used Araldite on rotors

Keith

Alpi Pioneer 200 w/Jabiru 2200 900+ hrs
Jabiru J160 2200 Hydraulic lifters 300+ hrs

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:11 am    Post subject: Mag failure at mag-check Reply with quote

Finding a cap loose at 237 hours was what caused me to remove it and
look inside. I found a bit of oil inside the left cap, which had come
through the shaft seal. I checked the right mag and found it to be
saturated with oil, to the point of almost covering the lowest
terminal inside the cap. The left shaft was scored by the seal, but
the right shaft was unscored. The best-looking shaft had dumped the
most oil. I corrected the condition by installing Speedi-Sleeves on
both shafts, and installing new seals. No leakage has been found since.
As a result of finding loose rotors recently, I've started to use
Hysol (a 2-part structural adhesive...epoxy) to secure the rotors.

Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/470+ hrs

On Feb 6, 2008, at 11:01 PM, Keith Pickford wrote:

[quote]
<kpickford(at)xtra.co.nz>

I have read 200 hrs somewhere on the Jabiru CD - Replaced ours at 300
because cap was loose, Have done another 600 since with no trouble -
used Araldite on rotors

Keith

Alpi Pioneer 200 w/Jabiru 2200 900+ hrs
Jabiru J160 2200 Hydraulic lifters 300+ hrs

--


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Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM
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Lynn Matteson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:22 am    Post subject: Mag failure at mag-check Reply with quote

I agree, Ivan....Pete's been good about answering problems. I haven't
had to lean on him too often for advice, as my engine got to the 200
hour mark pretty quick with no problems. I did, however, try to talk
him out of a Jabiru hat when I was at Oshkosh, but no deal...I had to
buy a hat just like everyone else...bummer. : ) (I did buy the hat,
though)
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/470+ hrs

On Feb 6, 2008, at 9:50 PM, Ivan wrote:

Quote:


Lynn
The neat thing that I love about the Jabiru so far is the good
documentation and Pete's input. I can go to the service manual and
know exactly what I have to check, how to do it and how often. I
felt a little unsupported in those areas when I was running my Rotax.

Ivan



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Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM
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