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I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what would you d

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jdalton77(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:32 am Post subject: I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what would you d

So I have this friend who is building an RV-10  ...

  

 His helper did a perfect job on the trailing edge -  perfectly straight.  The shop heads of the rivets are in the countesrunk  hole, very consistent and look great.  The manufactured head of the rivets  ... are ROUND.  Yes, he put in universal rivets instead of countersunk  rivets.  Worse yet, the rivets are -4, not -3.  In other words, the  holes are already drilled out with a #30 bit.

  

 Would you risk overdrilling the holes, drill out  all the rivets, and replacing them with flush rivets, or would you leave it (it  looks fine) OR would you re-do the entire rudder?

jjessen(at)rcn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:33 am Post subject: I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what would you d

Other than looks, I doubt it'd make a difference.  I'd  call Van's and verify, then if no difference, leave it.  On the other hand,  I'm probably going to rebuild my VS because I hammered on it so hard that it  looks like I used it in a destruction derby.  

  

 John Jessen

   ~328 (and one who has no knowledge really about such  things, but that would be my .02 worth.)

  

 do not archive



   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff  Dalton

Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 9:30 AM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: I have a Friend who  screwed up his rudder - what would you do?

 

 So I have this friend who is building an RV-10  ...

  

 His helper did a perfect job on the trailing edge -  perfectly straight.  The shop heads of the rivets are in the countesrunk  hole, very consistent and look great.  The manufactured head of the rivets  ... are ROUND.  Yes, he put in universal rivets instead of countersunk  rivets.  Worse yet, the rivets are -4, not -3.  In other words, the  holes are already drilled out with a #30 bit.

  

 Would you risk overdrilling the holes, drill out  all the rivets, and replacing them with flush rivets, or would you leave it (it  looks fine) OR would you re-do the entire rudder?

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:40 am Post subject: I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what would you d

Is this a joke? Sorry! Maybe a mental exercise.

I can't wait to hear John's (0.02) about this one.



The size of the rivets in the thin skin is perhaps the biggest issue.  After 

that, if using 470 rivets with the manufactured head sticking out of only 

one side, each one should have been reversed in direction to counteract the 

air deflection off the proud manufactured heads. There are several older 

planes that have rivets the size of marbles sticking out of their skins, but 

not an RV.  I guess you could use the rudder as a drag/dive brake.



With that said, chock it up to experience, practice and do it again, it will 

only come out better each time you do it over.  You got to set a high 

standard from the start. It is kinda fun anyway.



Just my thoughts.



Do not archive.



Jg.

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "Jeff Dalton" <jdalton77(at)comcast.net>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what would 

you do?

Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 09:29:56 -0500



So I have this friend who is building an RV-10 ....



His helper did a perfect job on the trailing edge - perfectly straight.  

The shop heads of the rivets are in the countesrunk hole, very consistent 

and look great.  The manufactured head of the rivets .... are ROUND.  Yes, 

he put in universal rivets instead of countersunk rivets.  Worse yet, the 

rivets are -4, not -3.  In other words, the holes are already drilled out 

with a #30 bit.



Would you risk overdrilling the holes, drill out all the rivets, and 

replacing them with flush rivets, or would you leave it (it looks fine) OR 

would you re-do the entire rudder?

rv10es(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 10:14 am Post subject: I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what would you d

I would leave it if it looks OK, you have enough edge distance and do not mind the RV10 ramp inspectors at air shows.

Do not archive



 rob kermanj

rv10es(at)earthlink.net (rv10es(at)earthlink.net)



 



On Feb 28, 2006, at 9:29 AM, Jeff Dalton wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  So I have this friend who is building an RV-10 ....

 

His helper did a perfect job on the trailing edge - perfectly straight.  The shop heads of the rivets are in the countesrunk hole, very consistent and look great.  The manufactured head of the rivets ... are ROUND.  Yes, he put in universal rivets instead of countersunk rivets.  Worse yet, the rivets are -4, not -3.  In other words, the holes are already drilled out with a #30 bit.

 

Would you risk overdrilling the holes, drill out all the rivets, and replacing them with flush rivets, or would you leave it (it looks fine) OR would you re-do the entire rudder?

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 10:50 am Post subject: I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what would you d

First and foremost I do not want to sound too harsh with my original 

comment...I am sorry.



Here is the deal the way I see it.



If you are not the designer or a aeronautical engineer why would you change 

the recipe?  All this stuff(DOUBTS) we do not have a definitive answer.  YOu 

are only a test pilot to some degree, as other have mostly the same plane, 

but yours now with the modification will be different, so you can throw away 

the test flights of all others and all the experience of other who continue 

to fly.



So when you are flying your new RV 10 and hopefully you are in tuned to what 

you hear and what you feel, your plane sounds different or feels 

different...what will your mind do.  Hopefully it will try to figure out 

what is going on.  Now add on all the little steps you skipped, the 

directions you did not follow, the things you could have done better.  Now 

add all those things into you figuring.  Overload, worse, you freeze.  You 

make a bad decision or you put it down in an unfriendly area or make a bad 

landing because you are overwhelmed.



This is a no brainer.



Minimize the potential conflicts.



JG.



Do Not Archive





 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "John Gonzalez" <indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what 

would you do?

Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 07:39:54 -0800






Is this a joke? Sorry! Maybe a mental exercise.

I can't wait to hear John's (0.02) about this one.



The size of the rivets in the thin skin is perhaps the biggest issue.  

After that, if using 470 rivets with the manufactured head sticking out of 

only one side, each one should have been reversed in direction to 

counteract the air deflection off the proud manufactured heads. There are 

several older planes that have rivets the size of marbles sticking out of 

their skins, but not an RV.  I guess you could use the rudder as a 

drag/dive brake.



With that said, chock it up to experience, practice and do it again, it 

will only come out better each time you do it over.  You got to set a high 

standard from the start. It is kinda fun anyway.



Just my thoughts.



Do not archive.



Jg.

>From: "Jeff Dalton" <jdalton77(at)comcast.net>

>Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

>To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

>Subject: I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what would 

>you do?

>Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 09:29:56 -0500

>

>So I have this friend who is building an RV-10 ....

>

>His helper did a perfect job on the trailing edge - perfectly straight.  

>The shop heads of the rivets are in the countesrunk hole, very consistent 

>and look great.  The manufactured head of the rivets .... are ROUND.  Yes, 

>he put in universal rivets instead of countersunk rivets.  Worse yet, the 

>rivets are -4, not -3.  In other words, the holes are already drilled out 

>with a #30 bit.

>

>Would you risk overdrilling the holes, drill out all the rivets, and 

>replacing them with flush rivets, or would you leave it (it looks fine) OR 

>would you re-do the entire rudder?



http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:18 am Post subject: I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what would you d

I forgot the issue of them being countersunk holes with non matching rivets. 

  You can drill out each rivet perfectly, but the thin skin has expanded 

around the oversize rivets..it took more energy to crush them. You guys are 

really worrying me.



WE had an accident sometime ago in the gliding community.  It dealt with a 

pilot losing elevator control.  It turned out that the tape holding the 

mylar gap seal had peeled up and caused the airflow to seperate enough so 

that the air did not come back down on the elevator, rendering it 

ineffective.  We fly with parachuttes, but he wasn't high enough to use it. 

That is how a simple issue can have huge implications. This doesn't seem 

simple to me.



This is troubling...you guys are flying over my house.  I need to first get 

a TFR over my home and then go for a permanent flight restriction.  Maybe a 

concrete dome embrella.  And I was wondering whether this was a joke.



Call Van's but talk to a designer not builders support.



JG.

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "John Gonzalez" <indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what 

would you do?

Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 07:39:54 -0800






Is this a joke? Sorry! Maybe a mental exercise.

I can't wait to hear John's (0.02) about this one.



The size of the rivets in the thin skin is perhaps the biggest issue.  

After that, if using 470 rivets with the manufactured head sticking out of 

only one side, each one should have been reversed in direction to 

counteract the air deflection off the proud manufactured heads. There are 

several older planes that have rivets the size of marbles sticking out of 

their skins, but not an RV.  I guess you could use the rudder as a 

drag/dive brake.



With that said, chock it up to experience, practice and do it again, it 

will only come out better each time you do it over.  You got to set a high 

standard from the start. It is kinda fun anyway.



Just my thoughts.



Do not archive.



Jg.

>From: "Jeff Dalton" <jdalton77(at)comcast.net>

>Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

>To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

>Subject: I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what would 

>you do?

>Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 09:29:56 -0500

>

>So I have this friend who is building an RV-10 ....

>

>His helper did a perfect job on the trailing edge - perfectly straight.  

>The shop heads of the rivets are in the countesrunk hole, very consistent 

>and look great.  The manufactured head of the rivets .... are ROUND.  Yes, 

>he put in universal rivets instead of countersunk rivets.  Worse yet, the 

>rivets are -4, not -3.  In other words, the holes are already drilled out 

>with a #30 bit.

>

>Would you risk overdrilling the holes, drill out all the rivets, and 

>replacing them with flush rivets, or would you leave it (it looks fine) OR 

>would you re-do the entire rudder?



http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

bsponcil(at)belinblank.or
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:27 pm Post subject: I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what would you d

 

 I'd call Vans to see what they say before you  go rebuilding the rudder.

  

 I'm  guessing that having 470s on  the trailing edge won't make much of a difference. Have you ever taken  a look at a DC-3? There are round rivet heads ALL OVER that thing. I realize  they aren't the same but still.....

  

 Post Vans reply if you call....

  

  

 -Brian

  

 N211BD

 #40497

 [quote]   ---

acs(at)acspropeller.com.a
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:48 pm Post subject: I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what would you d

What I tend to find, is any un-intentional deviation  from the plans tends to nag at you. It's an uncertainty and therefore  erosion of confidence. Not something I like in the back of my mind when I  go flying, whether a minor issue or major issue it's all cumulative in the  end.  JG's point,  "I forgot the  issue of them being countersunk holes with non matching rivets. 

  You  can drill out each rivet perfectly, but the thin skin has expanded 

around  the oversize rivets..it took more energy to crush them" is a very good reason to  replace.

 John 40315

 do not archive

 [quote]   ---

ron.mcgann(at)baesystems.
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:52 pm Post subject: I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what would you d

Not  sure whether this post is serious . . . 

  

 But if  it is, put the rudder aside.  Start work on the rest of the kit, there is  plenty to do.  As you gain more experience, mull over it for a  while and come to fully understand the cost of a rudder in the grander  scheme of things, you will come to a conclusion that you are happy with.   This is not a problem you need to solve today.

  

 As  John  says, just $0.146 worth - Ozzy exchange rate  ;-< 

  

 cheers,

 Ron

 Riveting fuse side skins. 

  

 do not  archive

 [quote]   --

jjessen(at)rcn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:24 pm Post subject: I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what would you d

This is the best advice from all of us, but do call  Van's.  I'm sure they'll give the standard "just move on" statement.   

  

 I suspect, as Ron is implying, that when you are whipping  out the parts towards the end, the rudder will look dead simple and you'll come  back to it knowing what you want.  I know that I'll rebuild my VS since I  now know so much more about building, am much more skilled and can see doing  that piece over two or three long days, instead of the month it took me at  first.  The rudder is a little more complex, but it might beat getting  RV-10 builder snickers at OSH.  Or, you could turn it into the latest speed  mod.  You know, reverse dimples in golf balls!  Something like  that.  

  

 John Jessen

   ~328 (Master Builder Self  Designate)

  

 do not archive



   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of McGANN,  Ron

Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 4:51 PM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: I have a Friend who  screwed up his rudder - what would you do?

 

 Not  sure whether this post is serious . . . 

  

 But if  it is, put the rudder aside.  Start work on the rest of the kit, there is  plenty to do.  As you gain more experience, mull over it for a  while and come to fully understand the cost of a rudder in the grander  scheme of things, you will come to a conclusion that you are happy with.   This is not a problem you need to solve today.

  

 As  John  says, just $0.146 worth - Ozzy exchange rate  ;-< 

  

 cheers,

 Ron

 Riveting fuse side skins. 

  

 do not  archive

 [quote]   --

owl40188(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:32 pm Post subject: I have a Friend who screwed up his rudder - what would you d

Jeff,

  

 I don't see the #4 rivet size as being a problem, however, the universal head in a countersunk hole is a problem.  It reduces the bearing area to practically nothing as the rivet can't fill the countersunk hole.

  

 I suggest drilling out the holes.  If the results don't look good than order new parts.

  

 Niko

 40188



---

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