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Accident Hysteria
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Dave Nixon

Joined: 20 Sep 2007
Posts: 25

Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:42 pm Post subject: Accident Hysteria

I have been reading about the nahsayers regarding the safety of the Zodiac CH601XL for over a week now. And frankly, I was starting to get worried about my recently completed project that just passed the Airworthiness inspection Friday last. 

 So I started investigating the Accidents everyone was referring to. Here is a recap. 

  

 NTSB ID: DFW07LA102 - CH601 XL - 9 month sport Pilot flew into weather at 12:45PM 05/02/07, destroying the airplane in flight. He flew into heavy IMC.  Now what would a 9 month sport Pilot Operator being doing in IMC? I just can't fathom it.  And while doing so, torn the wings off. I do not feel that this is a design flaw but a 'Stupid Pilot Trick'. Unfortunately, he probably didn't have enough hours to know that. 

  

 NTSB ID: LAX07LA218 - CH601 HDS-  VFR - pulled power on base and needed power on final - couldn't get his 912 S to respond. He hit a house, flipped over. Upon examination, NTSB found that both carb bowls were varnished and empty.  Throttle cable was severely frayed.  Owner stated that he ran the engine about 11 times during the 6 year build process.  He ran it most during the recent taxi tests.  This was his first flight.  

  

 And that, my friends is it for CH601s in America.  

  

 And then we have the CH601XL Australian accident of an apparent canopy-bird collision (NO wing detachment)  and CH601HDS in Spain which, at this time appears to be pilot error (Stupid Pilot trick). 

  

 It is good to be cautious but to call for a massive investigation due to a 'chicken little' mentality is absolutely not called for. Our time would be better spent learning all we can about the airplane and its powerplant by following AC90-89 to the letter and being safety conscious E 

  

 You all can do what you want, but I am taking myself out of the "I'm In" gang. What I built is safe and well designed. Watch the NTSB reports for my first flight if you wish. 

  

 Dave Nixon 

 CH601XL 3300  tail No: N107R

 Airworthiness Inspected and ready for testing. 

           [quote][b]

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:17 pm Post subject: Accident Hysteria

I think the 601XL is a safe design. But I think you need to expand your search criteria. For example, what about LAX06LA105?  

Accident occurred Wednesday, February 08, 2006 in Oakdale, CA

 Probable Cause Approval Date: 3/26/2007

 Aircraft: Hooker Zodiac 601XL, registration: N105RH

 Injuries: 2 Fatal.  

The problem with the NTSB database and experimental aircraft is that I can register my plane as anything I wish to name it.  

-- Craig      

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Nixon

 Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 5:39 PM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Accident Hysteria  

  

  

              

I have been reading about the   nahsayers regarding the safety of the Zodiac CH601XL for over a week now. And   frankly, I was starting to get worried about my recently completed project   that just passed the Airworthiness inspection Friday last.    

      

So I started investigating the   Accidents everyone was referring to. Here is a recap.    

      

    

      

NTSB ID: DFW07LA102 - CH601 XL - 9   month sport Pilot flew into weather at 12:45PM 05/02/07, destroying the   airplane in flight. He flew into heavy IMC.  Now what would a 9 month   sport Pilot Operator being doing in IMC? I just can't fathom it.  And   while doing so, torn the wings off. I do not feel that this is a design   flaw but a 'Stupid Pilot Trick'. Unfortunately, he probably didn't have   enough hours to know that.    

      

    

      

NTSB ID: LAX07LA218 - CH601 HDS-    VFR - pulled power on base and needed power on final - couldn't get his   912 S to respond. He hit a house, flipped over. Upon examination, NTSB found   that both carb bowls were varnished and empty.  Throttle cable was   severely frayed.  Owner stated that he ran the engine about 11 times   during the 6 year build process.  He ran it most during the recent taxi   tests.  This was his first flight.     

      

    

      

And that, my friends is it for   CH601s in America.     

      

    

      

And then we have the CH601XL   Australian accident of an apparent canopy-bird collision (NO wing   detachment)  and CH601HDS in Spain which, at this time appears to be   pilot error (Stupid Pilot trick).    

      

    

      

It is good to be cautious but to   call for a massive investigation due to a 'chicken little' mentality is   absolutely not called for. Our time would be better spent learning all we can   about the airplane and its powerplant by following AC90-89 to the letter and   being safety conscious.    

      

    

      

You all can do what you want, but I   am taking myself out of the "I'm In" gang. What I built is safe and   well designed. Watch the NTSB reports for my first flight if you wish.    

      

    

      

Dave Nixon    

      

CH601XL 3300  tail No: N107R   

      

Airworthiness Inspected and ready   for testing.    

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purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:19 pm Post subject: Accident Hysteria

Dave , what about the instructor in virginia? that was a 601,  and what about the instructor and the owner that went down in calif. ? that was  a 601 both were in the trafic pattern and both had instructor's flying, no  neg  G's  no stunt flying," no stupid pilot tricks " and no noticeable  abrupt  elevator movement, even at that they were at landing speed...   One plane was factory built and one was a kit....  FACT ,both  had the  same end results  wing's folded up...      ?????      Joe  N101 HD   601XL/RAM

 [quote]   ---

ernieth(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:46 pm Post subject: Accident Hysteria

I think this was the first flight with the wings reattached. The

question was how it was attached. Report could not determine what

happened

 do you thing bolts and things fail with no unusal loads? Something

was no put together right

do no archive



On 3/18/08, Southern Reflections <purplemoon99(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:

[quote] Dave , what about the instructor in virginia? that was a 601, and what about

 the instructor and the owner that went down in calif. ? that was a 601 both

 were in the trafic pattern and both had instructor's flying, no neg G's no

 stunt flying," no stupid pilot tricks " and no noticeable abrupt elevator

 movement, even at that they were at landing speed... One plane was factory

 built and one was a kit.... FACT ,both had the same end results wing's

 folded up... ????? Joe N101 HD 601XL/RAM

 ---

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:46 pm Post subject: Accident Hysteria

If by "instructor in virginia", "One plane was factory built" and "both  had

the same end results  wing's folded up" you are including Jim Pellien's

crash then you are seriously confused:



NTSB Identification: NYC07FA025. 

The docket is stored in the Docket Management System (DMS). Please contact

Records Management Division  <http://www.ntsb.gov/info/sources.htm#pib> 

14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation

Accident occurred Saturday, November 11, 2006 in Basye, VA

Probable Cause Approval Date: 7/25/2007

Aircraft: Czech Aircraft Works CH 601 XL RTF, registration: N601VA

Injuries: 1 Fatal.

ernieth(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:56 pm Post subject: Accident Hysteria

Flight into weather like that is pilot error and is a matter of luck

that this or any plane makes it though

-1

do not archive



On 3/18/08, Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 The CA 02/06 aircraft was flown near weather so severe that a ferry pilot

 had to divert. The leading edges had elongated rivet holes upon inspection

 after the crash. Was it the final flight or the ferry flight that caused

 the elongated leading edge rivet hole damage?



 The S-LSA was heard to "explode" first, and then a wing fold, same with the

 Spanish crash.



 Another weather fold was already mentioned and a bird strike = 5.





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=170801#170801

purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:20 pm Post subject: Accident Hysteria

Sure Do, AllI say is WHY.....      Joe                 N101HD

---

purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:24 pm Post subject: Accident Hysteria

You're right, my  mistake...    fuel          I'am  sure there was another... Have to look in my pile of papers  from last  year, or the year  before...                      Joe N101HD

 [quote]   ---

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:48 pm Post subject: Accident Hysteria

On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 06:04:19PM -0700, Sabrina wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   agreed... just build the airplane to specs!


	


That doesn't explain the factory aircraft's inflight breakup. That's the one

that has me the most concerned.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:08 pm Post subject: Accident Hysteria

Are you Maynard that lives on Walts Way ????

---

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:18 pm Post subject: Accident Hysteria

On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 09:05:37PM -0700, steve wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Are you Maynard that lives on Walts Way ????


	


Nope...Oakwood Drive.



do not archive

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:35 am Post subject: Accident Hysteria

On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 10:28:03PM -0700, Sabrina wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Check out the S-LSA's fuel and exhaust system.  The factory built had an

 exhaust system with 5 times the length of exhaust pipe, 10 times the

 amount of exposed (non-heat muffed and much hotter) surface and fuel lines

 running down both sides of the engine.  The amount of leverage or stress

 on the exhaust ports for cylinders 1 and 2 are much greater on the S-LSA

 version.


	


now you've got me curious, because when I looked at the factory version

during my visit to the factory, it didn't strike me as being unusual as far

as GA exhaust systems go. Are there pictures of yours somewhere we can see

for comparison?

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

Iberplanes

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 174
Location: Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:58 am Post subject: Accident Hysteria

Hello Dave, 

  

 [quote]   Take into account the 601 crashed in Barcelona was an   XL.

    

   Bye, 

    

   Alberto Martin

Iberplanes IGL 

http://www.iberplanes.es

Igualada -    Barcelona - España



   ---

_________________
Alberto Martin
601 XL - Jabiru 3300
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

bill_dom(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:00 am Post subject: Accident Hysteria

Every now and then I see posts from people who don't seem to be clear as to what accidents/incidents are the ones causing concern. For the benefit of these peoples, here are the incidents in question:



LAX06LA105 Oakdale, CA. Wing folded up. A witness stated that he saw the wings "visibly vibrate" and then "left wing collapsed and folded rearward against the fuselage"



DFW07LA102 Canadian, TX. This is the guy that flew into IMC and his plane broke up in flight. No witnesses.



LAX07FA026 Yuba City, CA. A factory build AMD that broke up in flight. One witness sated that he heard an explosion and "observed the center section of the airplane falling straight down"



Then you have the Australian and Spanish incidents. 



In the Australian incident, a bird strike is suspected. 

In the Spanish incident, a wing folding up in flight is suspected. 



Another 2 incidents that have fueled concerns are the 2 cases of wing flutter, one by a member of  this list when he overflew a power plant and a the other one that affected an AMD Zodiac in South Florida.

William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami Florida

http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom

 [quote][b]

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:19 am Post subject: Accident Hysteria

And with the Aussie crash the "witness" first  interviewed said " The PROP STALLED".    Go  figure....SW

 [quote]   ---

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:06 am Post subject: Re: Accident Hysteria

While not commenting on the design of the XL I do want to make a comment on pilot skills.  I have been a pilot over thirty years and CFII for 23.  I also used to go to a lot of airshows as crew of a WWII B25.  I met a lot of very experienced and sometimes "famous" pilots, that have since killed themselves in airplanes.  



What I have learned from all this and what I remind myself each time I fly is that anyone can use poor judgement and anyone can make a mistake.  Not enough fuel, too short a runway, weather worse than forecast, etc.  All these are traps waiting for the unwary.  Some pilots just don't know any better, while others know better but think that their superior skills will carry them thru. Regardless of your ratings or flight hours, when you start getting too comfortable in an airplane the alarm bells should be going off.



I have no plans to quit building my XL.  I intend to build it to the plans, fly it within the design envelope and keep my eyes open for anything that might lead to trouble.  I'll also continue to follow the comments expressed on this list but will put my faith in facts, not conjecture.  Discussion is healthy and can help lead to solutions, but so  much of what I've read recently seems to have little substance backing it up.  I know it is hard to be patient but I think the answers we're all waiting for will soon be forthcoming and that we should try to take a calm and reasoned approach to the issue.



Tim



Do not archive

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

Larry Hursh

Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 125
Location: Edwardsburg, MI (near Elkhart, IN)

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:35 am Post subject: Accident Hysteria

Well said Tim - my sentiments exactly!

   

  Larry H



Tim Juhl <juhl(at)avci.net> wrote:

  [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tim Juhl" 



While not commenting on the design of the XL I do want to make a comment on pilot skills. I have been a pilot over thirty years and CFII for 23. I also used to go to a lot of airshows as crew of a WWII B25. I met a lot of very experienced and sometimes "famous" pilots, that have since killed themselves in airplanes. 



What I have learned from all this and what I remind myself each time I fly is that anyone can use poor judgement and anyone can make a mistake. Not enough fuel, too short a runway, weather worse than forecast, etc. All these are traps waiting for the unwary. Some pilots just don't know any better, while others know better but think that  their superior skills will carry them thru. Regardless of your ratings or flight hours, when you start getting too comfortable in an airplane the alarm bells should be going off.



I have no plans to quit building my XL. I intend to build it to the plans, fly it within the design envelope and keep my eyes open for anything that might lead to trouble. I'll also continue to follow the comments expressed on this list but will put my faith in facts, not conjecture. Discussion is healthy and can help lead to solutions, but so much of what I've read recently seems to have little substance backing it up. I know it is hard to be patient but I think the answers we're all waiting for will soon be forthcoming and that we should try to take a calm and reasoned approach to the issue.



Tim



Do not archive



--------

______________

CFII

Champ L16A flying

Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A

Working on fuselage





Read this topic online    [quote][b]

_________________
Larry Hursh (N650LM Reserved)

"One rivet at a time......one day at a time.."

CH650 (Converted from CH601XL)
1/2 done with fuselage
will be Corvair Powered

japhillipsga(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:38 am Post subject: Accident Hysteria

Tim, I have not commented on any of these gloom and doom threads, but I can assure you that the XL if built correctly is a tough little bird. I have been into a few situations that scared me wet and she held together. When I hear about wing this and re design that, rib, bolt or whatever I know the fault was out side the ZAC design and the correct materials and can be laid at the feet of the pilot or some unforeseen force of nature that exceeds max. "You can't out fly stupid". Keep building and so if you want to fly in my XL-3300 with dual sticks, just let me know. My 2 cents, Best of luck, Bill of Georgia N505WP, 601XL 126 Hrs

 

 --

Larry Hursh

Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 125
Location: Edwardsburg, MI (near Elkhart, IN)

Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:29 am Post subject: Accident Hysteria

Thanks for clarifying the list of accidents and incidents.  My question is has any of the Heinz Family responded to any of these with real answers to why they happened???  I AM concerned as I'm sure most of the list is too.  

   

  Larry Hursh

  CH601XL (N601LL Reserved)



William Dominguez <bill_dom(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		  Every now and then I see posts from people who don't seem to be clear as to what accidents/incidents are the ones causing concern. For the benefit of these peoples, here are the incidents in question:



LAX06LA105 Oakdale, CA. Wing folded up. A witness stated that he saw the wings "visibly vibrate" and then "left wing collapsed and folded rearward against the fuselage"



DFW07LA102 Canadian, TX. This is the guy that flew into IMC and his plane broke up in flight. No  witnesses.



LAX07FA026 Yuba City, CA. A factory build AMD that broke up in flight. One witness sated that he heard an explosion and "observed the center section of the airplane falling straight down"



Then you have the Australian and Spanish incidents. 



In the Australian incident, a bird strike is suspected. 

In the Spanish incident, a wing folding up in flight is suspected. 



Another 2 incidents that have fueled concerns are the 2 cases of wing flutter, one by a member of this list when he overflew a power plant and a the other one that affected an AMD Zodiac in South Florida.

William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami Florida

http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom

 	  Quote: 	
		    	
	




  [quote][b]

_________________
Larry Hursh (N650LM Reserved)

"One rivet at a time......one day at a time.."

CH650 (Converted from CH601XL)
1/2 done with fuselage
will be Corvair Powered

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