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using 87-0ctane with ethanol

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larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 10:13 am Post subject: using 87-0ctane with ethanol

Hi guys,



I’ve been pleased to read these posts on blended ethanol fuel as I fly a 

Subaru with Bings. After the first 40 test hours, I’ve only used 

87-octane at 10% ethanol. Poor winter weather limited flying to once a 

month and I have been concerned about water in the gasoline. At 

preflight, I drain enough fuel from each tank to fill a qt glass jar 

more than half way. I’ve never found any sign of water or found less 

than clear fuel so it’s drained back into 5-gallon storage tanks. The 

oldest gas has been 10-12 weeks in the hangar before use and the 

Subaru’s performance doesn’t seem to have been affected. I’ve 

transferred older gas at the end of winter into my car with no apparent 

problems. I’ve never seen signs of water in the 601’s gascolator, the 

quart jar or the clear filter on the firewall. I’m only optimistic that 

perhaps the fuel I’m using is from stations that have rapid turnover 

fuel stocks and a handle on their water separation. I’m going to fly a 

lot more this year and have also acquired a set of 5-gallon tanks that 

can be carried empty in the wing baggage area for ease of retrieving 

fuel from the “street”.



That’s been the experience so far.



Do fly safe,



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

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bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 4:01 pm Post subject: using 87-0ctane with ethanol

If you are using gasoline with 10% alcohol in it, you won't see any  

water in your samples or your gascolator because any water will be  

held in suspension in the fuel by the alcohol -- up to a point, that  

is. If enough water gets into the fuel, it will all settle out to the  

bottom of the tank taking the alcohol with it. At this point, you will  

now have gasoline with a significantly reduced octane rating floating  

over a mixture of water and alcohol, neither substance will do nice  

things for your engine. This is exactly how you test for alcohol in  

gasoline, mix about 10% water with the gas and see if the apparent  

water level increases as it settles out. So if you ever do find  

"water" in your fuel tank while using gasohol, you might as well drain  

the entire tank because the remaining gasoline in the tank will  

probably have too low an octane rating to be safely used in your  

Subaru engine.



When gas stations start using gasohol, they no longer have to drain  

the water from their tank sumps because all the water gets pumped into  

the gas tanks of their customers cars mixed with the fuel. On the  

other hand, if the storage tank has a lot of water in it before that  

first load of gasohol gets dumped into it, the next customers will  

pump either low octane gas or the water/alcohol mix into their cars,  

depending on whether the separation point ends up above or below the  

level of the pump intakes.



Cold winter air can't hold a lot of water, so there isn't a lot to get  

absorbed by the alcohol in the gasoline. Hot summer air can hold a lot  

of water.



On May 10, 2008, at 2:10 PM, LarryMcFarland wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 >

 Hi guys,



 I’ve been pleased to read these posts on blended ethanol fuel as I  

 fly a Subaru with Bings. After the first 40 test hours, I’ve only  

 used 87-octane at 10% ethanol. Poor winter weather limited flying to  

 once a month and I have been concerned about water in the gasoline.  

 At preflight, I drain enough fuel from each tank to fill a qt glass  

 jar more than half way. I’ve never found any sign of water or found  

 less than clear fuel so it’s drained back into 5-gallon storage  

 tanks. The oldest gas has been 10-12 weeks in the hangar before use  

 and the Subaru’s performance doesn’t seem to have been affected.  

 I’ve transferred older gas at the end of winter into my car with no  

 apparent problems. I’ve never seen signs of water in the 601’s  

 gascolator, the quart jar or the clear filter on the firewall. I’m  

 only optimistic that perhaps the fuel I’m using is from stations  

 that have rapid turnover fuel stocks and a handle on their water  

 separation. I’m going to fly a lot more this year and have also  

 acquired a set of 5-gallon tanks that can be carried empty in the  

 wing baggage area for ease of retrieving fuel from the “street”.



 That’s been the experience so far.



 Do fly safe,



 Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com




	


-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

- The Matronics Stratus-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Stratus-List

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

tshankland(at)sbcglobal.n
Guest

Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 6:28 pm Post subject: using 87-0ctane with ethanol

I haven't really gotten into this but must make a comment. I remember 

going to an FAA safety seminar about 25 or 30 years ago where we were 

told in no uncertain terms that if we used auto fuel in our aircraft we 

would DIE. They gave all the usual reasons, vapor lock, contamination 

from "unsafe" fuel supplies etc. Then we found out when tested, other 

than by all those pilots that were flying with it anyway, that it did 

not do all those things and if we had any expensive piece of paper we 

could use auto fuel in our airplanes. My Zodiac as a Suburu and I built 

it with aluminum tanks and lines and the flexible lines are automotive, 

you know those that tolerate gas and alcohol. I also talked to Bing 

about my carburetors and they told me that since they were also used on 

many ultra lights their materials were not effected by gasohol. When 

people ask me how much aviation fuel cost I honestly don't know because 

I get my gas at the Meijers Store.

Tim Shankland



Bryan Martin wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net>



 If you are using gasoline with 10% alcohol in it, you won't see any  

 water in your samples or your gascolator because any water will be  

 held in suspension in the fuel by the alcohol -- up to a point, that  

 is. If enough water gets into the fuel, it will all settle out to the  

 bottom of the tank taking the alcohol with it. At this point, you 

 will  now have gasoline with a significantly reduced octane rating 

 floating  over a mixture of water and alcohol, neither substance will 

 do nice  things for your engine. This is exactly how you test for 

 alcohol in  gasoline, mix about 10% water with the gas and see if the 

 apparent  water level increases as it settles out. So if you ever do 

 find  "water" in your fuel tank while using gasohol, you might as well 

 drain  the entire tank because the remaining gasoline in the tank 

 will  probably have too low an octane rating to be safely used in 

 your  Subaru engine.



 When gas stations start using gasohol, they no longer have to drain  

 the water from their tank sumps because all the water gets pumped 

 into  the gas tanks of their customers cars mixed with the fuel. On 

 the  other hand, if the storage tank has a lot of water in it before 

 that  first load of gasohol gets dumped into it, the next customers 

 will  pump either low octane gas or the water/alcohol mix into their 

 cars,  depending on whether the separation point ends up above or 

 below the  level of the pump intakes.



 Cold winter air can't hold a lot of water, so there isn't a lot to 

 get  absorbed by the alcohol in the gasoline. Hot summer air can hold 

 a lot  of water.



 On May 10, 2008, at 2:10 PM, LarryMcFarland wrote:



> 

> <larry(at)macsmachine.com >

> Hi guys,

>

> I’ve been pleased to read these posts on blended ethanol fuel as I  

> fly a Subaru with Bings. After the first 40 test hours, I’ve only  

> used 87-octane at 10% ethanol. Poor winter weather limited flying to  

> once a month and I have been concerned about water in the gasoline.  

> At preflight, I drain enough fuel from each tank to fill a qt glass  

> jar more than half way. I’ve never found any sign of water or found  

> less than clear fuel so it’s drained back into 5-gallon storage  

> tanks. The oldest gas has been 10-12 weeks in the hangar before use  

> and the Subaru’s performance doesn’t seem to have been affected.  

> I’ve transferred older gas at the end of winter into my car with no  

> apparent problems. I’ve never seen signs of water in the 601’s  

> gascolator, the quart jar or the clear filter on the firewall. I’m  

> only optimistic that perhaps the fuel I’m using is from stations  

> that have rapid turnover fuel stocks and a handle on their water  

> separation. I’m going to fly a lot more this year and have also  

> acquired a set of 5-gallon tanks that can be carried empty in the  

> wing baggage area for ease of retrieving fuel from the “street”.

>

> That’s been the experience so far.

>

> Do fly safe,

>

> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

>

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Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 7:56 pm Post subject: using 87-0ctane with ethanol

I used to use auto gas in my Zodiac also, but lately I haven't been  

able to find any that isn't contaminated with alcohol. The airport I  

fly out of is selling avgas for $4.15 a gallon right now so I'm not  

too worried about the price compared to $3.80 a gallon auto gas. Maybe  

with enough people screaming about the price of food right now, our  

congress idiots will back off of this ethanol kick they're currently  

on. We may need to start dragging some of the corn lobbyists out in  

the street and beating up on them along with the legislators who keep  

pandering to them to put an end to this stupidity.



If you want to use alcohol as fuel, then use alcohol. If you want to  

use gasoline, then use gasoline. No way in hell should we be forced to  

mix the two together.

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 >



 I haven't really gotten into this but must make a comment. I  

 remember going to an FAA safety seminar about 25 or 30 years ago  

 where we were told in no uncertain terms that if we used auto fuel  

 in our aircraft we would DIE. They gave all the usual reasons, vapor  

 lock, contamination from "unsafe" fuel supplies etc. Then we found  

 out when tested, other than by all those pilots that were flying  

 with it anyway, that it did not do all those things and if we had  

 any expensive piece of paper we could use auto fuel in our  

 airplanes. My Zodiac as a Suburu and I built it with aluminum tanks  

 and lines and the flexible lines are automotive, you know those that  

 tolerate gas and alcohol. I also talked to Bing about my carburetors  

 and they told me that since they were also used on many ultra lights  

 their materials were not effected by gasohol. When people ask me how  

 much aviation fuel cost I honestly don't know because I get my gas  

 at the Meijers Store.

 Tim Shankland




	




-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

- The Matronics Stratus-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Stratus-List

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

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