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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
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 Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:10 am Post subject: Constructive Feedback was Asymmetrical trim noted at OSH |
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Les Kearney wrote:
| Quote: |
Linn
Your post about "opting out" is a good segway into a topic that I wanted to
raise with the group.
Over my build process, this list has been my support group in a very real
sense. There are few builders where I am so I have had to learn as a go
along and call on the list when I run into problems. To that end, I find it
easier and easier to admit my mistakes and get help.
They say confession is good for the soul!
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| Quote: | While at KOSH, I spoke with another builder who recognized my name from my
"Oh sh*t" posts. As a builder he was only lurking as he found the list a bit
intimidating. As a group, I believe that we need to encourage more builders
to raise their issues and problems so that they can move forward in the
knowledge that they are not alone in turning aluminum into scrap. If you
read the list over time, it is easy to get the impression that not many
"mistakes" are raised and therefore everyone is doing everything exactly
right.
We all make mistakes. It's how we handle them that makes the
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difference. I'll admit to welding up the elevator horn holes twice
because I wasn't satisfied. I ended up drilling the holes for the
pushrod starting with 1/8" and working my way up to the #12 .... in
three steps. Much, much easier although it took much, much longer. I'm
now a satisfied camper.
| Quote: | While on the surface, having a "group inspection" of a/c at KOSH may sound
like a good idea, I am not sure I would appreciate an uninvited critique of
my workmanship. I suspect the process would all too easily evolve into a
beauty contest. I understand that anyone can look at any a/c at KOSH and
form their own opinions. This is fair dinkum. However, I don't think a
"group inspection" would be such a great idea as it might offend the mere
mortals on the list who are not building a show plane.
I see your point. There are no perfect airplanes out there .... whether
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we build them or a factory does. When I built my Pitts, it was rough
compared to those who have built many. I was (and still am) really
proud of my accomplishment. About the only thing I'm learning about
with the RV-10 is the riveting .... and I'm getting the same education
everyone else is. However, I don't get anal about a 'slightly
imperfect' rivet. I'm not building my airplane for awards .... I'm
going to fly the dickens out of it. My RV-10 isn't going to sit in the
hangar like antique cars sit in garages.
It's the consensus of a group that I look for. Like I said, we're an
opinionated group, and the lone pair of eyes can do more 'damage' to
your building reputation by running his mouth. He may be ignorant of
the truth. The group opinion should be far more constructive. It's the
experience of those looking that's important.
| Quote: | Perhaps a better approach would be to identify a few recognized
knowledgeable builders who can offer to review a/c one on one if asked. This
respects the individual builders while making a very worthwhile service
available in an informal and non-threatening manner.
Another good point. However, when do you see the recognized
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knowledgeable builders without a group??? 
| Quote: | Just my $0.02
And I appreciate your comments. I find this to be a really great group,
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and don't want 'fear of criticism' to cause anyone not to participate.
Linn ..... will be part of the flying group someday
| Quote: | Cheers
Les "some assembly required" Kearney
#40643
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:38 pm Post subject: Constructive Feedback was Asymmetrical trim noted at OSH |
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Les, et al,
I don't know if Canada has them, but this is one of the functions of the
EAA Tech Counselor program.
Perhaps there aren't too many tech counselors who are RV-10 builders
yet...but John C and myself are. I'm not far enough into my project to
offer much -10 specific advise, yet..but perhaps there are others who are.
Anyone who has built a plane such as the RV-10 can apply to the EAA for
designation as a Tech Counselor. I would encourage some of you that are
flying to consider this, and it is a good way to both meet new builders
and volunteer a little time to advise them. More information is
available on the EAA web site. Most EAA chapters will have several, and
some have even built an RV before. 
Project visits are done one on one, a written report is given to the
builder, and a copy goes to EAA. It is one effort to reduce failures
during the test fly-off period.
Les Kearney wrote:
| Quote: |
Linn
Your post about "opting out" is a good segway into a topic that I wanted to
raise with the group.
Over my build process, this list has been my support group in a very real
sense. There are few builders where I am so I have had to learn as a go
along and call on the list when I run into problems. To that end, I find it
easier and easier to admit my mistakes and get help.
While at KOSH, I spoke with another builder who recognized my name from my
"Oh sh*t" posts. As a builder he was only lurking as he found the list a bit
intimidating. As a group, I believe that we need to encourage more builders
to raise their issues and problems so that they can move forward in the
knowledge that they are not alone in turning aluminum into scrap. If you
read the list over time, it is easy to get the impression that not many
"mistakes" are raised and therefore everyone is doing everything exactly
right.
While on the surface, having a "group inspection" of a/c at KOSH may sound
like a good idea, I am not sure I would appreciate an uninvited critique of
my workmanship. I suspect the process would all too easily evolve into a
beauty contest. I understand that anyone can look at any a/c at KOSH and
form their own opinions. This is fair dinkum. However, I don't think a
"group inspection" would be such a great idea as it might offend the mere
mortals on the list who are not building a show plane.
Perhaps a better approach would be to identify a few recognized
knowledgeable builders who can offer to review a/c one on one if asked. This
respects the individual builders while making a very worthwhile service
available in an informal and non-threatening manner.
Just my $0.02
Cheers
Les "some assembly required" Kearney
#40643
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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2882
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:24 pm Post subject: Constructive Feedback was Asymmetrical trim noted at OSH |
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Pascal,
I like the way you took my intention for that suggestion. Those who
know me and know my plane know that I'm just another builder...who's
had many of things go wrong along the way. Plenty of mistakes to
point out. My plane isn't a showplane at all, but just another
RV-10....one that gets flown for what it was designed. I'm not
for beauty contests, but think it's great for those coming after me
in the build to learn from the mistakes that I and many others have
made. I certainly can pick on some planes and show some repetitive
examples...but it's never out of poking fun at people...it's either
about keeping them safe (i.e. the suggestion of checking peoples
trim tabs or flap alignments....both of which are things that
I've seen wrong on other RV-10's), or helping other builders avoid
cosmetic mistakes. There were many RV-10's on the field this OSH.
I saw some fairly average ones with nice blending on their elevator
horns, where the fairings were smoothly transitioned to the aluminum.
I saw a spectacularly finished RV-10 that lacked the smoothness in
that area. Showing these things can help other builders make their
planes better. Another perfect example is the seam of the upper
forward fuse to the lower forward fuse, just forward of the windshield.
I filled that seam well on the aft corners of the windscreen. It looks
wonderful. However, it looks cosmetically hideous that I didn't
think of filling that seam all the way forward. I'm constantly
aware of that on my plane. Funny thing is, there were some
absolutely otherwise spectacular planes there that did the same thing.
Wouldn't it be nice to have someone point that out to you BEFORE you
get that far along?? I know I sure which I had an RV-10 counselor
to show me some tips in person.
So nope, this isn't about picking on anyones plane, but I think
that as a group, there's a lot that could be taught, and learned,
by traveling from plane to plane. Can I do it on a one-on-one basis?
Sure. But, to tell you the truth, I'm just not interested in
that repetition over and over doing one-on-ones...it's inefficient
to do it that way at OSH. We all just need to be grown up enough
to be willing to share, willing to learn, and have both our
positives and negatives pointed out. Heck, start with me...there's
a lot of mileage you can have by critiquing the trailing edge of
at least one of my doors and how well it blends with the fuselage.
Next year for OSH, if you're an RV-10 builder, try to come for
the first 3 or 4 days of the show and we'll figure something out
to do with that time that will benefit you. I learned this year though
that if you're not there for the Sunday-Wed time early in the week,
you're going to miss a lot of potential stuff...so come early, stay
late, if at all possible.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
pascal wrote:
[quote]
Les;
My problem is I read too much about the building process so I don't
recall where I read this but the group inspection idea is one I read and
always thought was a great idea. . I have had many come by and look for
all my shortfalls, my TC is a very knowledgeable RV pilot and I always
dread what he will say about my building, I listen carefully to every
comment, I ask questions and in the end am very happy for the feedback I
received which usually is far more optimistic than I held my building
skills to be.
The important thing to remember is that we can take advice or leave it
but one needs to consider what is raised and seriously determine if it
applies.
The good thing about a group (and this one is a great one) is that one
can say they messed up and get feedback, which I usually take as
positive and not harsh, Tim and a few others have made "gotchas" as a
link to show how it is common for us to have issues with steps and
sections. Section 29 was a breeze, the fuel tank sealing was a breeze,
not because I am good, but because I was given a gotcha to avoid and
hence was able to take the plans and adjust it to others issues so I
would not have the same issue.
If one looks at all the great sites out there Tim's, Deems, William
Curtis, etc they have had many issues and they mention them and what
they needed to do to repair the issue, I have looked at all these sites,
Mike Rowe's and initially John Jensen to see what they did so I can work
off of that as a starting point.
Basically I think there is quite a lot out there to see what others have
done before us and sitting in front of a computer I have more courage to
ask a question and run than have someone look me in the face and say
"you have got to be kidding.." which I jest because usually the
responses come back quickly and allows one to think through options to
repair the issue.
Pascal
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Les Kearney" <kearney(at)shaw.ca>
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 11:10 AM
To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Constructive Feedback was Asymmetrical trim noted
at OSH
>
>
> Linn
>
> Your post about "opting out" is a good segway into a topic that I
> wanted to
> raise with the group.
>
> Over my build process, this list has been my support group in a very real
> sense. There are few builders where I am so I have had to learn as a go
> along and call on the list when I run into problems. To that end, I
> find it
> easier and easier to admit my mistakes and get help.
>
> While at KOSH, I spoke with another builder who recognized my name
> from my
> "Oh sh*t" posts. As a builder he was only lurking as he found the list
> a bit
> intimidating. As a group, I believe that we need to encourage more
> builders
> to raise their issues and problems so that they can move forward in the
> knowledge that they are not alone in turning aluminum into scrap. If you
> read the list over time, it is easy to get the impression that not many
> "mistakes" are raised and therefore everyone is doing everything exactly
> right.
>
> While on the surface, having a "group inspection" of a/c at KOSH may
> sound
> like a good idea, I am not sure I would appreciate an uninvited
> critique of
> my workmanship. I suspect the process would all too easily evolve into a
> beauty contest. I understand that anyone can look at any a/c at KOSH and
> form their own opinions. This is fair dinkum. However, I don't think a
> "group inspection" would be such a great idea as it might offend the mere
> mortals on the list who are not building a show plane.
>
> Perhaps a better approach would be to identify a few recognized
> knowledgeable builders who can offer to review a/c one on one if
> asked. This
> respects the individual builders while making a very worthwhile service
> available in an informal and non-threatening manner.
>
> Just my $0.02
>
> Cheers
>
> Les "some assembly required" Kearney
> #40643
>
> --
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Lew Gallagher
Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 402
Location: Greenville , SC
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:48 am Post subject: Re: Constructive Feedback was Asymmetrical trim noted at O |
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Tim,
We'll soon be mounting the windshield and making that fairing. I'm pretty sure what you're talking about in that lower corner, but could you post a picture to show "that seam forward"?
Thanks, - Lew
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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_________________
non-pilot
crazy about building
NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549
Fly off completed ! |
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