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Professional Built Plane (PBP)

 
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cjensen(at)dts9000.com
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:22 am    Post subject: Professional Built Plane (PBP) Reply with quote

Ralph Finch/John Cox,

The only reason that the FAA doesn't create a Professional Built Plane (PBP) is it make too much sense (sarc). Such a category would make honest men and women of the builders that have a high level of interest, but not the time or place to build a plane. If the builder can't do 51%, the PBP would come into play if they can document 25%. The PBP would let the 'buyer' do maintenance and make changes except to powerplant an flight controls but the Conditional Inspection would have to be done by an A&P. What to do about the 100% PBP? Mmmmmm. Make them construct under the supervision of an A&P, final inspection by an second, unrelated A&P and then they are maintained much like a certified plane with owner maintenance limited to oil/air/grease, except they can add/remove non-certified components at will.

There has to be a better system than the current one that makes liars out of hundreds of new plane buyers (masquarading as builders) every year.

Chuck Jensen
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brenthumphreys



Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:56 am    Post subject: Professional Built Plane (PBP) Reply with quote

The rules are not making liars out of plane buyers.

The buyers are knowingly and intentionally committing perjury.

If they can't work within the rules, they need to work to change the rules, or not break them.

[quote][b]


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AV8ORJWC



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:53 am    Post subject: Professional Built Plane (PBP) Reply with quote

Chuck - your solution sounds beautifully simple. It resembles the DMIR (Designated Manufacturers Inspection Representative) however it would attract the howls from the certified boys and probably meet a premature death.

As long as the Pro builts don't award the coveted Repairman Certificate to a guy that can buy the pro aircraft, we could just go back to the purity of the OBAM intent. The FAA should focus their effort on the DARs who award certificates to guys/gal who can't maintain their pride and joy and then those who by their actions did not Build 51% to start with. Then they could go after all the liars who commit fraud.

The public deserves a quality OBAM operating in the skies over them.

John


From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Chuck Jensen
Sent: Sat 8/30/2008 4:18 AM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Professional Built Plane (PBP)
Ralph Finch/John Cox,

The only reason that the FAA doesn't create a Professional Built Plane (PBP) is it make too much sense (sarc). Such a category would make honest men and women of the builders that have a high level of interest, but not the time or place to build a plane. If the builder can't do 51%, the PBP would come into play if they can document 25%. The PBP would let the 'buyer' do maintenance and make changes except to powerplant an flight controls but the Conditional Inspection would have to be done by an A&P. What to do about the 100% PBP? Mmmmmm. Make them construct under the supervision of an A&P, final inspection by an second, unrelated A&P and then they are maintained much like a certified plane with owner maintenance limited to oil/air/grease, except they can add/remove non-certified components at will.

There has to be a better system than the current one that makes liars out of hundreds of new plane buyers (masquarading as builders) every year.

Chuck Jensen
[quote] --


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cjensen(at)dts9000.com
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 12:45 pm    Post subject: Professional Built Plane (PBP) Reply with quote

John, thanks for the kind words and your thoughts. I would pass the idea along to EAA, but they would ignore it....wouldn't make them any money.

Chuck Jensen

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ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:04 pm    Post subject: Professional Built Plane (PBP) Reply with quote

A couple of thoughts.

1st, if I understand the FAA's legal charter correctly it has always
overstepped its authority with the 51% portion of the homebuilt rule.
The 51% rule does not add safety nor does it promote aviation. It's
really the aviation equivalent of the military's don'taskdon'ttell rule;
it's political maneuvering to get homebuilding past an uneducated public
(and mfgrs who fear competition). Having said that, I'm aware that it
isn't likely to go away. It is my opinion that the reason we are seeing
all this activity now is that the big manufacturers are seeing the
potential (money) in Light Sport & want all the pie instead of just
their slice. A lot like the airlines looking at VL jets & realizing that
if they don't get the FAA to do something to cripple them (read that
user fees), the airlines are about to lose virtually all their
high-dollar 1st class & business class ticket sales.

Here's what I intend to send the FAA as my 'comment'.

There is a very simple way to eliminate the abuse of the '51% rule' with
no changes whatsoever to the rule or the methods used to determine
compliance and without creating a new category like 'pro built' that
would require a huge amount of $time$.

All that's needed is a change to the operating limitations for the
Experimental Exhibition category to be the same as Experimental Amateur
Built. The big problem with Exhibition is the 300nm radius, home airport
only limit. If the oplims were simply changed to match EAB, the mfgrs
would still get their protection because there could be no 'for hire'
operation just like EAB, and guys that want to pay someone else (or that
*should* pay someone else due to their lack of skills) would have no
motivation to 'abuse' the 51% rule. If you choose an incompetent 'pro'
to do your work, it would be no different than choosing a bad guide when
you go mountain climbing or a bad car builder if you go racing. Danger
to people 'on the ground' really won't be any greater than these other
activities (quite a few spectators & rescue workers have died due to
other sports).

Oplims can be revised at-will by FAA without any public comment (meaning
very inexpensively). They've done it with EAB several times in the last
decade.

Charlie
John Cox wrote:
[quote] Chuck - your solution sounds beautifully simple. It resembles the
DMIR (Designated Manufacturers Inspection Representative) however it
would attract the howls from the certified boys and probably meet a
premature death.

As long as the Pro builts don't award the coveted Repairman
Certificate to a guy that can buy the pro aircraft, we could just go
back to the purity of the OBAM intent. The FAA should focus their
effort on the DARs who award certificates to guys/gal who can't
maintain their pride and joy and then those who by their actions did
not Build 51% to start with. Then they could go after all the liars
who commit fraud.

The public deserves a quality OBAM operating in the skies over them.

John

------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Chuck Jensen
*Sent:* Sat 8/30/2008 4:18 AM
*To:* rv-list(at)matronics.com
*Subject:* Professional Built Plane (PBP)

Ralph Finch/John Cox,

The only reason that the FAA doesn't create a Professional Built Plane
(PBP) is it make too much sense (sarc). Such a category would make
honest men and women of the builders that have a high level of
interest, but not the time or place to build a plane. If the builder
can't do 51%, the PBP would come into play if they can document 25%.
The PBP would let the 'buyer' do maintenance and make changes except
to powerplant an flight controls but the Conditional Inspection would
have to be done by an A&P. What to do about the 100% PBP? Mmmmmm.
Make them construct under the supervision of an A&P, final inspection
by an second, unrelated A&P and then they are maintained much like a
certified plane with owner maintenance limited to oil/air/grease,
except they can add/remove non-certified components at will.

There has to be a better system than the current one that makes liars
out of hundreds of new plane buyers (masquarading as builders) every year.

Chuck Jensen

--


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jsflyrv(at)verizon.net
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:31 pm    Post subject: Professional Built Plane (PBP) Reply with quote

Once again 51% rule has nothing to do with repairman certficate!!!!
John Cox wrote:

[quote] Chuck - your solution sounds beautifully simple. It resembles the
DMIR (Designated Manufacturers Inspection Representative) however it
would attract the howls from the certified boys and probably meet a
premature death.

As long as the Pro builts don't award the coveted Repairman
Certificate to a guy that can buy the pro aircraft, we could just go
back to the purity of the OBAM intent. The FAA should focus their
effort on the DARs who award certificates to guys/gal who can't
maintain their pride and joy and then those who by their actions did
not Build 51% to start with. Then they could go after all the liars
who commit fraud.

The public deserves a quality OBAM operating in the skies over them.

John

------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Chuck Jensen
Sent: Sat 8/30/2008 4:18 AM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Professional Built Plane (PBP)

Ralph Finch/John Cox,

The only reason that the FAA doesn't create a Professional Built Plane
(PBP) is it make too much sense (sarc). Such a category would make
honest men and women of the builders that have a high level of
interest, but not the time or place to build a plane. If the builder
can't do 51%, the PBP would come into play if they can document 25%.
The PBP would let the 'buyer' do maintenance and make changes except
to powerplant an flight controls but the Conditional Inspection would
have to be done by an A&P. What to do about the 100% PBP? Mmmmmm.
Make them construct under the supervision of an A&P, final inspection
by an second, unrelated A&P and then they are maintained much like a
certified plane with owner maintenance limited to oil/air/grease,
except they can add/remove non-certified components at will.

There has to be a better system than the current one that makes liars
out of hundreds of new plane buyers (masquarading as builders) every year.

Chuck Jensen

--


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jeffpoint



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 72
Location: MKE

PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:47 pm    Post subject: Professional Built Plane (PBP) Reply with quote

--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv(at)verizon.net (jsflyrv(at)verizon.net)>

Once again 51% rule has nothing to do with repairman certficate!!!!

Very true, and one of the most common misconceptions which is thrown around in this debate.

Another, and closely related misconception, is that the DAR can issue a repairman's cert. Only the FSDO can do this, the DAR may or may not have anything to do with it. Unscrupulous DARs issuing airworthiness certs to pro-builds is the very heart of this issue, but really has nothing to do with repairman's certs.

Jeff Point
RV-6 built and flying/ RV-8 building
RLU-1 underway
Milwaukee
do not archive

[quote][b]


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n395v



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:45 am    Post subject: Re: Professional Built Plane (PBP) Reply with quote

The heart of the issue is $$$$$$$$

The old (existing) rules worked just fine until the amateur built factories popped up.

The FAA and DARs had a large degree of latitude in their inspections and awarding of airworthiness certificates as well as repairman's certificates.

Unfortunately a few kit manufacturers and small shops stepped over the line hired some DARs and started assembly lines.

This got the attention of the manufacturers of certified planes and resulted in the lobbying that will ultimately lead to a rule change.

The really sad thing is that, I suspect, at least one of the most egregious offenders participated in formulating the new rules.

I had a co worker who spent a year writing checks to have a plane built.
Once every 3 months he flew to the factory and had his picture taken next to his project with a tool in his hand. He filled out and signed the affidavit, applied for the N number, and showed up for the inspection with the DAR 1 year after the aircraft started construction. (Yes for this 2500hr plus airplane his builders log was compressed into 12 months)

I assumed the hired DAR would sign his papers and voila he was a builder.

Much to my surprise the DAR took his check, asked a few questions and said, "it is obvious you did not build this plane and I am not going to approve it".

Now at this point my coworker should have gone to jail for falsifying the affidavit, instead nothing happened to him and the plane got certified with someone else's name as the builder.

Enforcement of the existing rules would suffice and if applied in this case with legal action against my coworker and the "factory" would have ended the problem.

Instead we have new scrutiny in a time when the press, the general public,
and many politicians would just love to see us and all of general aviation dissappear.

It would be so refreshing to see the EAA step in and demand vigorous enforcement of the existing rules. But thats not going to happen is it?


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rickpegser(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:54 am    Post subject: Professional Built Plane (PBP) Reply with quote

milt

it is nice to see that at least one dar has the backbone to do what is right. The only future that i see with builder assist centers that i see is a "rent a shop" type ideas with "tech advisors" on site. but even that would only help in areas with high builder density and cheap floor space. some thing like the military base autoshops that had all the equipment for you and all you did was rent a stall to work on your car.
rick
--- On Sun, 8/31/08, N395V <Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com> wrote:

Quote:
From: N395V <Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com>
Subject: Re: Professional Built Plane (PBP)
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Sunday, August 31, 2008, 7:45 AM

<Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com>

The heart of the issue is $$$$$$$$

The old (existing) rules worked just fine until the amateur
built factories popped up.

The FAA and DARs had a large degree of latitude in their
inspections and awarding of airworthiness certificates as
well as repairman's certificates.

Unfortunately a few kit manufacturers and small shops
stepped over the line hired some DARs and started assembly
lines.

This got the attention of the manufacturers of certified
planes and resulted in the lobbying that will ultimately
lead to a rule change.

The really sad thing is that, I suspect, at least one of
the most egregious offenders participated in formulating the
new rules.

I had a co worker who spent a year writing checks to have a
plane built.
Once every 3 months he flew to the factory and had his
picture taken next to his project with a tool in his hand.
He filled out and signed the affidavit, applied for the N
number, and showed up for the inspection with the DAR 1 year
after the aircraft started construction. (Yes for this
2500hr plus airplane his builders log was compressed into 12
months)

I assumed the hired DAR would sign his papers and voila he
was a builder.

Much to my surprise the DAR took his check, asked a few
questions and said, "it is obvious you did not build
this plane and I am not going to approve it".

Now at this point my coworker should have gone to jail for
falsifying the affidavit, instead nothing happened to him
and the plane got certified with someone else's name as
the builder.

Enforcement of the existing rules would suffice and if
applied in this case with legal action against my coworker
and the "factory" would have ended the problem.

Instead we have new scrutiny in a time when the press, the
general public,
and many politicians would just love to see us and all of
general aviation dissappear.

It would be so refreshing to see the EAA step in and demand
vigorous enforcement of the existing rules. But thats not
going to happen is it?

--------
Milt
2003 F1 Rocket
2006 Radial Rocket




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n395v



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:14 am    Post subject: Re: Professional Built Plane (PBP) Reply with quote

Quote:
it is nice to see that at least one dar

I think 99% of DARs are honest, dedicated professionals who would also do the right thing. It is the 1 % that give the bad impression being generated by this controversy. Every DAR I have ever met is an honest hardworking individual who plays by the rules.

I have absolute and immense respect for all the DARs out there.


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