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M14P Missing Oil & Hydraulic Lock

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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:36 pm Post subject: M14P Missing Oil & Hydraulic Lock

Stu,

 Diagnosis is somewhat correct.  The oil  leaks from the oil tank past the oil pump shut off valve and down into the  sump.  You could make a very simple oil drain tube from the front sump  drain into a clean gallon or 2 gallon container with a sealed cap or  lid.  Attach a flexible hose to the sump drain through a hole which  you can drill in the bottom of the cowling.  Then open the sump drain after  you fly and the excess oil will drain into the container.  Pour the excess  oil that drained into the container back into the oil tank before you fly the  next time.  

  

 The correct repair is to have the oil pump  overhauled by M14P, Inc./Carl and Jill.  The external oil shut off works  very well.  But as you said, is expensive to install.  Actually, the  external oil shut off is a "band-aide" to the problem, which is the oil  pump.

 Dennis

  

 [quote]   ---

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:46 pm Post subject: M14P Missing Oil & Hydraulic Lock

Stu, that is because of the engines lower oil sump.  That is the same general location where your engine oil drain on the front itself is located.



What you should be doing is to run the engine at about 60-70% or so for at least 30 seconds before engine shut down.  This allows the pump for the sump to scavenge all the oil out and feed it back to the tank where the dip stick is.  Then bring the engine back to idle and turn off the mags.  As you do this, during and NOT after, open the throttle all the way.  This sucks in cool air and helps to set the rings.  Or at least that is what people say anyway regarding the throttle issue.  It IS in the Russian check list, so it must do SOMETHING!  



As the engine sits not running..... The oil will creep down from the tank, reverse feed through the oil pump, through a worn ball check valve that is supposed to prevent this, and will work it's way to the lowest point in the engine again... Which is of course the lower sump.  



Now your dipstick reads lower... About 2 liters or so lower.. And will go lower still as the cylinders start filling up.



Start the engine again, the oil is pumped back to the main tank, and the oil level magically goes back up.  This is what is happening and it is fairly normal.  The oil in the cylinders will stream out the exhaust pipes as you pull the engine through before starting, which of course you are doing.... Right?  



By the way, once the sump fills all the way up, the next thing is that oil will start going into your cylinders, and also coming out the exhaust valves and running out the exhaust pipes.  This is what we have been talking about vis-à-vis a "Hydraulic Lock" recently however in that case the exhaust valve is closed and the oil fills the combustion chamber and goes no where when you rotate the engine and bring the piston up.    Read the previous posts. 



The "fix" for your problem is the same fix as has been described for the Hyd Lock issues.  



Best Regards and Welcome Aboard!  



Mark Bitterlich

N50YK



 



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petervs(at)knology.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:48 pm Post subject: M14P Missing Oil & Hydraulic Lock

The fix is even more simple than you think. Just fly it more. My plane does

the same thing, but if I fly it once a week or more it doesn't do it. Your

plane is simply begging for more attention. 



Personally I would rebuild the pump or buy one rather than a band aid fix.

If the check valve is wearing out, how far behind is the rest of the pump.



And Congrats on buying a Yak, you made the best choice. 



Pete

                                        __|__

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                __|__   ----=(*)=----

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steve.fox(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:50 pm Post subject: M14P Missing Oil & Hydraulic Lock

Question:



1) Do you have a drain kit?

Next

As to the oil reading low when cold then coming back up. Ok somebody with more knowledge can give you a better answer, but Cliff Coy once reminded me not to trus oil level in Main tank when plane had been sitting and is cold once it runs and warms up it is liable to come up. The why I can no longer recall.



 Stephen Fox

Consulting Partner/Facilitator & Trainer

thinkx Intellectual Capital

innovation drives productivity

ideas drive innovation

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http://www.thinkxic.com

email: steve.fox(at)thinkxic.com (steve.fox(at)thinkxic.com)

Boston Office: 617-379-0865

New Hampshire: 603.924.8660





 



On Oct 23, 2008, at 5:22 PM, Stu wrote:

[quote]

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:52 pm Post subject: M14P Missing Oil & Hydraulic Lock

Stu, like an idiot I did not read your whole post.  



My personal opinion.   



I would not put another check valve in the line to the pump.    



I would consider putting a mechanical VALVE in there that you can turn

on and off MANUALLY.  



Yes, you can fix the ball check valve in the pump, but it is going to

start leaking again sooner or later, they all do.  The manual valve

stops this problem dead in it's tracks.  The only problem is if you

forget to turn it on before starting the engine.  Put an interupter

switch on there that prevents the starter button from working (easy) and

you are 90% safe from being stupid and toasting an engine.  



Excess oil into the bottom of the engine does not hurt a thing, unless

you fail to get it out of the cylinders and intakes manifolds before the

next start.  Then it can ruin the engine.  I've lost GALLONS out the

exhaust ... Didn't hurt a thing. 



Mark 



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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:07 pm Post subject: M14P Missing Oil & Hydraulic Lock

Mark,

 The Kimball shut off valve kit has an electrical  interface to the start circuit and is a electro-mechanical mechanism.  If  anything fails in the starting circuit, the valve will not open and thus the  engine will not start.  Also machined out of billet aluminum.  The  Kimball's always make quality stuff though.

  

 http://www.jimkimballenterprises.com/web/zoom.php?id_lavoro=15&immagine=images/prodotti/10.jpg&w=640&h=534

  

 "Fully CNC machined oil shut off valve. Equipped  with cable connector and Starter interrupt micro switch (not shown). Female 3/4  NPT threads in and out for connection to oil system. Cable not  included."

  

 Dennis

  

 [quote]   ---

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:11 pm Post subject: M14P Missing Oil & Hydraulic Lock

Here's the link to all of the M14 stuff from Jim  Kimball Enterprises.  Look at the bottom of the list of stuff for the  entire Clean Kit.  Their item number is M14P-24.

 http://www.jimkimballenterprises.com/web/m14p.php

 Dennis

  

 [quote]   ---

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:17 pm Post subject: M14P Missing Oil & Hydraulic Lock

Unless you run out of air and get out to prop the darn thing.  It'll

start right up.   



Don't get me wrong.  I want it, I will wire it that way as well, but

there always seems to be some way to screw up no matter what you do. 



Mark

 



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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:19 pm Post subject: M14P Missing Oil & Hydraulic Lock

By the way, now if someone would JUST take the time to make up a few

hoses and fittings for this valve so that all you had to do was to pull

out the old and install the new .... One could make some money, exactly

as in spark plug wire kits!  



Yes... I'm lazy.  But then.. So are a lot of other people!  



Mark

 



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Stu

Joined: 23 Oct 2008
Posts: 8

Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:55 am Post subject: Re: M14P Missing Oil & Hydraulic Lock

Thanks guys.  To answer some of the questions...



Have intake drains, open after every flight. When starting cold, pull through about 20 blades with drains open.  The pull through usually produces oil from the stbd exhaust stack also, sometimes a lot.  I suppose the hydraulic lock occurs randomly when the No. 6 cylinder just happens to be in the compression stroke...oil has nowhere to go.  



On shutdown I run it up to 70% for about 20 seconds then close the throttle and mags off. Haven't opened the throttle during the wind down (after mags off) in the past, will give that a try.  P.S. For the most part I've found that if the Russians did it, there was a good reason. 



Great to see the different opinions on a fix...they all sound practical. I'm inclined to do research on cost, timing, hassle etc. Will post what I come up with.

_________________
Stewart Nicholson
Yak 52 N122GC

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 6:18 am Post subject: M14P Missing Oil & Hydraulic Lock

Stu,

One other thing you can do is take out the oil check valve and clean it. A

lot of times that will stop this (or slow) this problem down to a mire

dribble.

Installing the Kimball oil cutoff personally scares me and I do not have one

for that reason. Have not met a failsafe system yet that could or would not

eventually fail especially if it involves electrons (queertrons) running

around protecting my rosie pink.

Installing the intake drains and opening them after every flight helps too.

And I highly recommend that mod. Not fail safe either. Sometimes you still

have to bite the bullet and drop the chin cowl to pull the lower three spark

plugs when it becomes difficult to pull a blade.anyway As my grandfather

used to pound into my head when I helped on his farm during the summers and

breaks, never force it or else you get an unwanted reward.

Drilling a hole in the chin cowl, putting a plastic hose through it and

plugging it into the sump drain then letting it drain into a clean bucket is

an option. Also adds to the I forgot to close it factor if for some reason

the thing falls off and the usual neophyte passer by asks the inevitable

stupid question to distract you from your pre-flight. Now you have an open

avenue to dump the rest of your oil over the side too. Besides, me

personally, I like to minimize the number of  new holes in my airplane.

Installing a Darton clean kit is another way of pumping most of the oil out

of your lower 8 rocker arm boxes and the sump. Much more expensive and again

adds a gotcha factor with all those weird little hoses running all over the

place just waiting for a gremlin to loosen a clamp or pull one off usually

at the most in opportune time.

The fact that with sitting you are seeing half of your oil in the tank drain

down into your engine ultimately your sump means the check valve is not

fully sealing. It is a metal to metal seal. Simply the thing gets groodued

up overtime or develops a rough surface and does not completely close

completely allowing the oil to leak past. Yes there could be other problems

affecting the oil pump but doubtful. Deal with the obvious before chasing

the Zebras. If you have good oil pressure and the only problem is that when

she sits she fills up the sump and empties about half the oil out of the

reservoir then it is the check valve until proven otherwise. Clean the

danged thing and see what happens. It is a pain in the ass to pull the

entire oil pump to ship it off to be overhauled when all you really have to

do is pull the check valve out of the back of the oil pump and clean it. 

If you do not know where it is order an M-14 engine parts book from West

London Aeroclub Russian Engineering at

http://www.wlacrussianeng.co.uk/main.asp?ID=7 They also have posters of the

M-14 P engine cut outs so you can see the blow up of the section you want to

tear apart and hopefully reassemble correctly. Not real expensive for the

book and the posters but the shipping to the US is a bitch.

My overall point is the Russians put that valve there for a reason and made

it fairly simple to pull and clean verses putting all the other fail safe

stuff (a nice 4 letter word) into the system so the operator (pilot) really

could embarrass himself and hurt a valuable piece of equipment.

Hope this farther clears your otherwise muddy water or errr ...full sump.

Doc





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Stu

Joined: 23 Oct 2008
Posts: 8

Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 7:01 am Post subject: Re: M14P Missing Oil & Hydraulic Lock

Thanks Doc. Your idea of removing and cleaning the check valve is appealing. Anybody done this lately?

_________________
Stewart Nicholson
Yak 52 N122GC

jorgen.nielsen(at)mweb.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 7:02 am Post subject: M14P Missing Oil & Hydraulic Lock

The oil check valve is a common culprit, becoming grooved around the seat.

It is quick to remove, and you can get a machine shop to polish / cut it

straight and re-install.  I have a spare one for this purpose that we share

between a couple Yaks - if one starts leaking down too much oil we swap the

valve, take the "faulty" one in and get it fixed then return to spare

status.

 



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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 7:11 am Post subject: M14P Missing Oil & Hydraulic Lock

The problem is not necessarily the check valve  Doc is talking about.  I have personally tried this and it really doesn't  cure the problem unless of course the spring which pushes against the valve is  broken or incorrectly seated.  A bad spring will cause the valve  not to shut off.  The problem is internal within the oil pump.  I  don't think you can repair this in the field.  Carl and Jill discovered  this while repairing oil pumps.  There is another shut off valve within the  oil pump.  If you want to truly correct the problem, talk to Carl/Jill  first, then remove the oil pump and have them overhaul it.

 Dennis

  

 [quote]   ---

valleyauto(at)clearwire.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:08 am Post subject: M14P Missing Oil & Hydraulic Lock

I had the same thing with my Yak so I removed the oil pump sent it to Jill.

I think It is better, But when It sets over 2 weeks or longer it leaks. Just

need to fly it more.



Don---

Dabear(at)damned.org
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:11 am Post subject: M14P Missing Oil & Hydraulic Lock

Hit delete now.....



Ok, I warned you.



I've had the kimbal oil shut off valve and the oil sump drain pump for over 

350 hours on my M14P.  I love it, period, end of story.  Used properly, 

there is zero chance of a hydraulic lock.  It has the starter interupt if 

the valve is closed.  and if you remove all the oil from your engine after 

shutting off the oil valve, there is no oil to drain into the Cyl, therefore 

no lock.



Now, I've heard of danger of the starter interupt not working while the 

valve is closed and electrically, don't see how that will happen.  But I'll 

grant you it might be possibility.  However, when ever I start an engine I 

look for oil pressure once the engine is running, no pressure I immediately 

shut down the engine.  We do this for cessnas, pipers, etc, why is this any 

different.



I guess you could "accidently" shut the oil valve in flight, but then again 

if you did that, you really shouldn't be flying.



The only real issue I see with the system is the half second it takes to get 

oil pressure into the engine and that could be fixed with a pre-oiler.  But 

I've not seen (even in winter) it take more than a second to get oil 

pressure, so while I might do a pre-oiler in the future, it is not a 

priority.



The nice thing the system does (besides preventing Hydraulic Lock, is 

prevent oil from coming out the intake drains and the exhaust onto the 

hanger floor or ramp.



Your mileage may varry, void where prohibited.

Dabear

tjyak50

Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 81
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 5:17 am Post subject: Re: M14P Missing Oil & Hydraulic Lock

1)  Oil migration may reduce or go away during winter.



2)  Try changing your oil, and to something heavier?



3)  When I installed Bill Blackwells oil filter kit my oil migration reduced significantly.



4) If you have an insurance policy from www.airpowerinsurance.com it may help also..., heck its worth checking at least.



Tj

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:00 am Post subject: M14P Missing Oil & Hydraulic Lock

4) If you have an insurance policy from www.airpowerinsurance.com it may

help also..., heck its worth checking at least.



Tj

Have you no shame Tj? :>O)

Doc

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:28 pm Post subject: M14P Missing Oil & Hydraulic Lock

Quick question.  Where did you get the oil lines to mate with the valve,

the tank and the engine? 



On the oil sump drain pump kit... Did you have to remove the cover off

the oil sump drain cover, or fixture and have it drilled and tapped to

accept the fitting, or did it come complete and you just bolted it on? 



Thanks, 



Mark Bitterlich

 



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