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Jimmy Young

Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 182
Location: Missouri City, TX

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:19 am Post subject: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts

On pre-flight insp. Sunday, I noticed my bolts connecting my horizontal stabilizers to the boom tube had a bit of play in them. Pulled them off and saw the bolt was worn at least 35-40%. Everyone should pull them off and check them, as you can't really see it that well until you pull them out. I checked the rest of my tang bolts going to the tail feathers, and the rest were fine. Seems the bolts at the horiz. stblzrs  spin around and grind a groove in them, so be sure and check!

_________________
Jimmy Young
Missouri City, TX
Kolb FS II/HKS 700

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:16 am Post subject: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts

> On pre-flight insp. Sunday, I noticed my bolts connecting my horizontal 

stabilizers to the boom tube had a bit of play in them.  >

 	  Quote: 	
		   --------

 Jimmy Young


	




Jimmy:



Most all Kolbs I look at have tail wires that are too loose.  I keep mine 

tight as a fiddle string.  I am not happy unless they make a twang when I 

pluck them.



Loose tail wires would allow those 3/16 bolts to spin more than if they were 

tight.



How many hours do you have on them?



If the wires are tight, you may have a vibration problem.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Jimmy Young

Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 182
Location: Missouri City, TX

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:11 am Post subject: Re:Re: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts

John H wrote:

>Loose tail wires would allow those 3/16 bolts to spin more than if they were 

>tight. 

>How many hours do you have on them? 

>If the wires are tight, you may have a vibration problem. 

Hi John,

The 3/16" bolts that wore out are the ones connecting the inboard front part of the horizontal stabilizer to the boom tube. I know they spin a bit. The bolts holding on my flying wires were all fine. I do keep my wires nice and tight. My FS has 298 hrs on the airframe and 79 hrs on my new engine.

My main point to everyone was, if you don't pull them and look, you won't know if they are worn.

76 degrees (at) 11 am, cold weather is on the way later today.

_________________
Jimmy Young
Missouri City, TX
Kolb FS II/HKS 700

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:43 am Post subject: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts

> My main point to everyone was, if you don't pull them and look, you won't 

know if they are worn.

 > --------

 	  Quote: 	
		   Jimmy Young


	




Jimmy:



Understand.



However, the tail wires control how much pressure is exerted on the front 

horizontal stabilizer attachment.



Along these same line, it is a good idea to check the cable thimbles on the 

tail wire tangs.  As time accumulates on the airframe, the thin edge of the 

tangs will start to cut through the cable thimble.  I changed mine to a 

different system using different hardware.  I put a lot of hours on my Kolb. 

Found myself changing out tail wires more than I wanted to.  Several years 

ago I designed a new system.  Have not had a problem since then.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:34 am Post subject: Re: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts

Thanks for the Heads up  Jimmy, it could save someones bacon one day.  



To stop wear, I use Mobil 1 synthetic grease on all those bolts ( Not the threads ! ) where they move against anything.  I also get the added benefit that my controls feel like they are on bearings.  I do the same with the tail wire thimbles John is talking about, I like Johns tail wire hardware, and will copy it one day.  In the mean time make sure there is some grease where the tail wire thimbles contact the tang and I have no noticeable wear in 200 hours or so.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Jimmy Young

Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 182
Location: Missouri City, TX

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:41 am Post subject: Re:Re: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts

John H said:



>Understand. 



>However, the tail wires control how much pressure is exerted on the >front horizontal stabilizer attachment



As soon as I hit the send button, I realized what you meant. I got it now.



This flying wire hardware you changed to...what kind is it?



Jimmy Y

_________________
Jimmy Young
Missouri City, TX
Kolb FS II/HKS 700

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:19 pm Post subject: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts

> This flying wire hardware you changed to...what kind is it?

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Jimmy Y


	


Jimmy:



I probably need to take some photos and post on the List to better show how 

I built my tail wire system.



I didn't use the standard SS wire tangs or the cable thimbles.



I made tangs from 4130 strap.



I used a cable pulley (that's what it looks like) with a 3/16 bolt to secure 

it to the 4130 tang/fork.



I also have four turn buckle to adjust each wire.  The are mounted outboard 

at the top and bottom of each side of the horizontal stabilizers.



If you get right down to the real nitty gritty, the cable thimble was not 

designed to be used with a thin edge tang, as used on Kolb tail wires.



Another way to get around this problem is use a 3/16 clevis with the 

thimble.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

icrashrc

Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 247
Location: Mishawaka, In

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:01 am Post subject: Re: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts

John,



Saved ya the trouble of taking pics.

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_________________
Scott

www.ill-EagleAviation.com

do not archive

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:11 am Post subject: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts

> Saved ya the trouble of taking pics.

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 

 --------

 Scott

 

 www.ill-EagleAviation.com

 > Attachments: 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/pict1973_218.jpg

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/pict1965_113.jpg

 
	




Morning Scott:



Great!!!  Thanks, buddy.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Rick Lewis

Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 122
Location: Kingston, Tn.

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts

Jimmy



     I think I know the area your talking about.  I saw this could be a problem down the road with wear on the two attach bolts at the boom tube.  I have attached pictures showing how I'm avoiding this problem.  Your really lucky you caught this before things turned loose in flight. The bushings you see in the pictures came from Wicks, part# SF812-4 and cost less than a dollar each.  Two nut plates, four rivets, two bushing and a little work is all it takes to fix it right.  



Rick Lewis

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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:14 pm Post subject: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts

>     I think I know the area your talking about.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Rick Lewis


	


Rick L:



I haven't experienced a problem with the elevator control mechanism.



I think the problem was up at the forward attach points.



I fixed mine with a 4130 bushing I made from a  piece of 1/4" tubing with a 

3/16" ID.  Works good.



Again, I don't think I have photos of the installation.



Let us know how your modification works out after you get some time on them.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:05 pm Post subject: Re: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts

FWIW, the forward attach bolts for the elevator halves had the same wear on my FSII. It had about 450 hours on it when I bought it, during a routine check of the stabilizer halves I found the bolts badly grooved. In fact it was bad enough that I grounded the plane until the replacement bolts came in.



The wires were probably too loose, having read John's description. Mine didn't "guitar string" when plucked (they had the stock nicos looped through the tangs construction which was probably how they had loosened over time).... I did snug the nylocs on the new bolts up against the two ears of the brackets so the bolts couldn't rotate without a fair bit of force (but not enough to distort the ears). 



I don't recall any problem with the elevator mechanism. There was a slight amount of play in one elevator half where the bolt was a little loose inside the little sleeve thingy but that was about it. 



The original owner used to fold/unfold the plane a lot so that might have contributed to the extra wear on those points......



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

Jimmy Young

Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 182
Location: Missouri City, TX

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:54 am Post subject: Re:Re: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts

Rick Lewis said:

>>I think I know the area your talking about.<<



Rick,

My problem was at the forward attachment point where 3/16 bolts connect the hrzntl stabilizers to the tube. I should have taken a photo.



I checked the 5/16 bolts you mentioned, along with every other bolt back there on the flying wires and control assemblies. They were all fine, but for less than $30 I ordered all new ones and am replacing them anyway.



Jimmy Y

Houston 

FS II, 298 hrs/AF, 80 hrs/Twin-V

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:13 am Post subject: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts

Jimmy



I have a concern about that Genrec being bolted solid to your engine mount. 

Could that be the source of your bolt ware. I see others have had some in 

that area also but it sounded like yours was worse. Check your whole plane 

over very carefully. I know from personal experience when my VW had 

vibration issues there was a lot of stress cracking and bolt ware.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:37 am Post subject: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts

Rick



You have been adding a lot of bushings and stuff. My concern is that all 

control surface bolts that aren't tight should have castle nuts or some 

other positive safety. In your photo of your tail boom you show a nut plate. 

Are you planning to safety that bolt in some way? Just be very careful when 

you fix things you don't make it dangerous.



Another concern is, when people get all caught up fixing everything they 

work on that they never finish their planes.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIC





---

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:42 am Post subject: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts

> I have a concern about that Genrec being bolted solid to your engine 

mount.

 >

 	  Quote: 	
		   Rick Neilsen


	




Rick N:



No Lord mounts???



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:12 am Post subject: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts

I've seen Jimmy's Firestar with the Generac, and that was one of the first things I noticed, too... no Lord mounts.  But the engine runs -very- smooth... much smoother than any Rotax, with Lord mounts, I've ever seen.

  -- Robert

On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 8:30 AM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:

[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>

 > I have a concern about that Genrec being bolted solid to your engine mount.

 >

  	  Quote: 	
		   Rick Neilsen

 Rick N:

 No Lord mounts???

 john h

 mkIII 

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[b]

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:54 am Post subject: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts

At 09:27 AM 1/29/09 -0500, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Rick



Another concern is, when people get all caught up fixing everything they 

work on that they never finish their planes.




	


Rick, 



The best time to install the bushings is when you are building.  I wish I 

had.  But I had to wait until it became obvious that it was important to do 

so.  So far I have bushed the knuckles on the rear wing attachment and the 

through bolt at the rear of the fuselage with porous Oilite bronze bushings. 

 I have flange Oilite bushings in the box waiting to be installed in for the 

horizontal stabilizer to the rear ring on the fuselage tube through bolts.  

On the FireFly the next most wear prone seems to be the aileron bell crank 

hole in the inboard steel wing rib.  If I was to do it over again, I would 

bush every hole in which a pin or bolt is used to attach a wing, wing strut, 

and horizontal tail surface. A few extra minutes during assembly when you 

can't fly will save hours later on when you find that significant steel to 

steel wear has taken place.  In most cases it is not a difficult repair but 

when you are in the process of repairing, it is always seems like you could 

be flying.  



Yesterday, we got a foot of snow.  Spent four hours on the Kubota blowing 

snow.  Not as much fun as flying.  Blowing like crazy today, so I will get 

more Kubota time.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:47 am Post subject: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts

Many years ago, during my Firestar days, I  discovered the soft Lord Mounts allowed my 447 to twist and cant during  full power.  I also discovered that at full power acceleration, it would  only attain about 70 mph.  May have been more or less, but so long ago I  don't remember.  With some experimentation in flight, I discovered if I  came back off power and very slowly increased power, allowing air speed to  increase, I could attain 85 mph which was normal top speed for this  airplane.

  

 Brother Jim and I decided we needed harder engine  mounts to prevent movement of the engine under high and full power  operation.  Jim designed and welded up some really nice engine mounts  utilizing two automobile shock absorber rubber donuts for each mount.  They  were well designed and there was no metal to metal contact.  They really  stiffened up the engine, holding it in place rather than letting it twist and  roll.

  

 I made the two hour flight back to Alabama from  Florida.  I could tell through feed back in the airframe that there was a  lot more vibration than normal.  By the time I got home I had just about  shook the airplane to pieces.  Remember the aluminum angle muffler mounts  on the 447?  Those were cracked, broken, and disintegrating.  Shook my  strobe light so hard it quit working.  My feet got numb from vibration feed  back through the rudder pedals.

  

 I got on the phone, called Little Mike at Old  Kolb.  He sent me a new set of harder Lord Mounts.  My problem was  solved.

  

 The reason I share this is my concern for problems  that may be encountered by Jimmy Y's Firestar flying with no Lord Mounts.   Doesn't take long for vibration to take its toll on a 4130 airframe and  everything attached to it.

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

 [quote]    

I've seen Jimmy's Firestar with the    Generac, and that was one of the first things I noticed, too... no Lord    mounts.  But the engine runs -very- smooth... much smoother than any    Rotax, with Lord mounts, I've ever seen.



  -- Robert



 [b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Rick Lewis

Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 122
Location: Kingston, Tn.

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts

 	  NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote: 	
		  Rick



You have been adding a lot of bushings and stuff. My concern is that all 

control surface bolts that aren't tight should have castle nuts or some 

other positive safety. In your photo of your tail boom you show a nut plate. 

Are you planning to safety that bolt in some way? Just be very careful when 

you fix things you don't make it dangerous.



Another concern is, when people get all caught up fixing everything they 

work on that they never finish their planes.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIC



Don't worry Rick, this bolt will be safety wired in place.  The nut plate itself should lock the bolt in place but won't be relied on to do so.  Thank for the concern and I appreciate the comment. 



     I feel the time to make these modest changes, fixes, are now while I'm building the plane since it's much easier to get to.



Rick Lewis 





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