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John Vormbaum

Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Posts: 273
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 7:19 pm Post subject: It is time...

As much as I loved reading this, alas, it wasn't written by Kaiser. In fact,

nobody knows who wrote it except for the signature "TPS". Bummer:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/proportions.asp



--

steve2(at)sover.net
Guest

Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 3:12 pm Post subject: It is time...

I wasn't going to spoil it for David. He's a good sport. And Nico had 

written a very well thought out post. Even Milt wrote a smart and well 

balanced one.  (Until the other one about the Militia guys maybe not being 

wackos. They are wackos but should be left alone. And New England and 

California? That's like mixing a New England version of the Waltons with 

Baywatch.)



That piece was written to inflame passion, anger and fear; and the real 

author knew exactly what buttons to push to do so. There is such crazy assed 

shit being said on all sides, but hardly anyone seems to care if what is 

said is true or not. I remember pissing off a bunch of the far left about 

ten years ago over an environmental and farming issue when I had to learn 

the facts instead of parroting back the crap that was then coming through as 

faxes.



I learned people were less interested in the truth than reinforcing 

something they already chose to believe. So a work program becomes evidence 

of an evil plot designed to create an army of Obama supporters who will 

seize power and make you honkies listen to better music and eat salad.



It so often comes down to the manipulation and reinforcement of fear. Fear 

of loss, fear for safety, and the constant warnings now from so many sources 

pointing out new and dire threats. (I wonder, are pilots as a class more 

vigilant to identification of threat.) I'm not going to sacrifice everything 

that's best about us, pervert my values and live in perpetual fear because 

we're threatened.



To hell with political parties and the moronic sides they make people take. 

But if a State wants to try some really, really stupid ideas and opt out of 

Federal laws and programs, I think they should be allowed to. Like now, if 

the citizens of Texas think guns are really too hard to get and want to opt 

out of Federal laws designed to keep guns from bad guys, and automatic 

weapons off the streets... Go for it. Give it a wack and see if if you like 

it.



I think much of the time it is less right and left than it is rural 

sensibilities against city requirements. When we were just frontier and 

people were spread out common sense and little interference makes more 

sense. With you people breeding like rabbits, too much of the population is 

packed together like sardines. I'm not so sure rural rules would work in 

cities, and I wouldn't want to tell those folks what's best for them. 

Likewise out in the sticks, I like being left alone.



I'll quit now. Been working on a major project way too many weeks in a row. 

A little punchy.



(Note: the views above definately do not represent those of the swell little 

company I work for.)



Please resume your regular programming.

Steve

---

bobf(at)feldtman.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 5:12 pm Post subject: It is time...

that's why the founders set up a Republic - each state has it's own autonomy - except what the constitution says in clear black and white. it is NOT a living document for interpretation. I suggest we all re-read that document.

 I've seen more "out of state" license plates here in Texas in the last three months than I have ever seen before. Has the exodus quietly begun?

The Republic of Texas won't have GA user fees! And I can go back to carrying heat in the plane.

 bobf



On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 6:05 PM, Steve W <steve2(at)sover.net (steve2(at)sover.net)> wrote:

[quote] --> Commander-List message posted by: "Steve W" <steve2(at)sover.net (steve2(at)sover.net)>

 

 I wasn't going to spoil it for David. He's a good sport. And Nico had written a very well thought out post. Even Milt wrote a smart and well balanced one.  (Until the other one about the Militia guys maybe not being wackos. They are wackos but should be left alone. And New England and California? That's like mixing a New England version of the Waltons with Baywatch.)

  

 That piece was written to inflame passion, anger and fear; and the real author knew exactly what buttons to push to do so. There is such crazy assed shit being said on all sides, but hardly anyone seems to care if what is said is true or not. I remember pissing off a bunch of the far left about ten years ago over an environmental and farming issue when I had to learn the facts instead of parroting back the crap that was then coming through as faxes.

  

 I learned people were less interested in the truth than reinforcing something they already chose to believe. So a work program becomes evidence of an evil plot designed to create an army of Obama supporters who will seize power and make you honkies listen to better music and eat salad.

  

 It so often comes down to the manipulation and reinforcement of fear. Fear of loss, fear for safety, and the constant warnings now from so many sources pointing out new and dire threats. (I wonder, are pilots as a class more vigilant to identification of threat.) I'm not going to sacrifice everything that's best about us, pervert my values and live in perpetual fear because we're threatened.

  

 To hell with political parties and the moronic sides they make people take. But if a State wants to try some really, really stupid ideas and opt out of Federal laws and programs, I think they should be allowed to. Like now, if the citizens of Texas think guns are really too hard to get and want to opt out of Federal laws designed to keep guns from bad guys, and automatic weapons off the streets... Go for it. Give it a wack and see if if you like it.

  

 I think much of the time it is less right and left than it is rural sensibilities against city requirements. When we were just frontier and people were spread out common sense and little interference makes more sense. With you people breeding like rabbits, too much of the population is packed together like sardines. I'm not so sure rural rules would work in cities, and I wouldn't want to tell those folks what's best for them. Likewise out in the sticks, I like being left alone.

  

 I'll quit now. Been working on a major project way too many weeks in a row. A little punchy.

 

 (Note: the views above definately do not represent those of the swell little company I work for.)

 

 Please resume your regular programming.

 

 

 Steve

 

 

 ---

n395v

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: It is time...

 	  Quote: 	
		  That's like mixing a New England version of the Waltons with 

Baywatch.) 

	




I am laughing my ass off.



Do Not Archive

_________________
Milt

steve2(at)sover.net
Guest

Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 3:35 am Post subject: It is time...

Yes. We were set up as a Republic and should remain  so. That's why it was so odd during the last administration to watch so called  conservatives cheerleading the seizing and consolidation of Exexcutive and  Federal power. It's a great idea if its your guy and in the name of keeping you  safe, but no one seemed to consider it might not always be their guy and the  rules were set up with the bigger picture in mind. Lower the bar for a President  you like, allow him to bypass rule of law and courts, and then panic because the  next one you don't like may inherit those similar powers.

  

 I don't know how one avoids having to read the  Constitution and determining how to apply the thing. It took over a hundred  years for folks to wonder if all men created equal meant women too. Two hundred  years later some folks figured they couldn't have meant black people also?  Naw...... At the time this looked like a new and activist interpretation to  many, and maybe it was. Real freedom isn't just for things I like and approve  of.

  

 Keep and bear arms. I'm in a bad mood with an  itchy trigger finger and my neighbors playing that vapid 'new' country music  again. Even with slugs, the pump 20 isn't a big enough threat. Can I keep a  105mm trained on his house 24 hours a day?

  

 Sooner or later Milt is going to form his Commander  list posse and come to get me. If the land mines don't get him first, I've been  mixing up home-made anthrax, with scrapings from glowing watches and baby poop.  Sure to stop him dead in his tracks...... Is that protected?

  

 Are Federal drug laws ok? What do I care if someone  is growing weed in their outhouse.

  

 It is very reassuring to hear of the exodus to  Texas. God knows they've got the room. But what are you going to do about  Austin?

  

 Steve

 [quote]   ---

steve2(at)sover.net
Guest

Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 3:40 am Post subject: It is time...

Johnboy, this is Pam. Pam, this is Johnboy.



---

nico(at)cybersuperstore.c
Guest

Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 4:13 am Post subject: It is time...

Come on, Steve. Nobody is going to shoot someone solely  because there is a gun in his hand. If there is enough motive and demeanor, a  killing is fixed, gun or not. Knowing the other guy might also be packing heat  has been proven to be an instant sedative.

  

 You would be much more inclined to seek peace with your  neighbor through other means, even reasoning with him or getting to like 'new'  country music, if you know he has the same hardware that you do. With gun  control, you never know what he hides and what he is capable of doing knowing  all you have is your cell phone with 911 on your speed  dial.



   From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve  W

Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 4:34 AM

To:  commander-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: It is  time...

 

 Yes. We were set up as a Republic and should remain  so. That's why it was so odd during the last administration to watch so called  conservatives cheerleading the seizing and consolidation of Exexcutive and  Federal power. It's a great idea if its your guy and in the name of keeping you  safe, but no one seemed to consider it might not always be their guy and the  rules were set up with the bigger picture in mind. Lower the bar for a President  you like, allow him to bypass rule of law and courts, and then panic because the  next one you don't like may inherit those similar powers.

  

 I don't know how one avoids having to read the  Constitution and determining how to apply the thing. It took over a hundred  years for folks to wonder if all men created equal meant women too. Two hundred  years later some folks figured they couldn't have meant black people also?  Naw...... At the time this looked like a new and activist interpretation to  many, and maybe it was. Real freedom isn't just for things I like and approve  of.

  

 Keep and bear arms. I'm in a bad mood with an  itchy trigger finger and my neighbors playing that vapid 'new' country music  again. Even with slugs, the pump 20 isn't a big enough threat. Can I keep a  105mm trained on his house 24 hours a day?

  

 Sooner or later Milt is going to form his Commander  list posse and come to get me. If the land mines don't get him first, I've been  mixing up home-made anthrax, with scrapings from glowing watches and baby poop.  Sure to stop him dead in his tracks...... Is that protected?

  

 Are Federal drug laws ok? What do I care if someone  is growing weed in their outhouse.

  

 It is very reassuring to hear of the exodus to  Texas. God knows they've got the room. But what are you going to do about  Austin?

  

 Steve

 [quote]   ---

steve2(at)sover.net
Guest

Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 8:49 am Post subject: It is time...

Agreed in principle Nico. I've approved of family  packing when appropriate, and I know of a couple instances where friends and  family both have only had to display some heat to turn away bad people intending  to do harm. It is appropriate and constitutionally protected to be able to  reasonably defend oneself.

  

 I do think there is a problem inherent in the  advance of the technology of 'arms'. When the framers wrote our founding  documents, one man with a muzzle loading musket would have a difficult time  killing two people. But now it is possible to quickly and efficiently kill  lots more people faster. Virginia Tech was 30 something people? Binghamton was  13, Alabama was 10 or eleven? This wsn't done with a Peacemaker. Hundreds of  rounds can be fired in minutes. We're now seeing  mass killings as a regular occurrence and it isn't even registering, or if it is  at all its seen as further evidence we need easier access to more lethal  weapons. 

  

 The point Nico, is that while I am guaranteed the  right to arms, does this right extend without limit? Its just odd how people  have been completely inflexible and absolutist when it comes to some  constitutional rights, yet perfectly willing to give up on others in the name of  being kept safe from terrorist bad guys. Its that fear and safety thing again,  maybe. Having easy and unlimited access to any and all weapons make one 'feel'  safer, while at the same time on a macrocosmic scale increasing the likelyhood  of being killed by them.

  

 You could perform a robbery or murder with a 38  special, or maybe defend yourself, but we're seeing something different  happening now. I don't have answers, maybe only questions.

  

 Steve

  

 [quote]   ---

bobf(at)feldtman.com
Guest

Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 8:55 am Post subject: It is time...

FYI - Texas is in the process of passing a right to carry for concealed handgun license holders to pack heat on campus in Universities (there are some requirements - age etc)........ but it will give pause to a potential university shooter to pull out a weapon - he might get the same treatment as the nut job at the Colorado Springs church who never expected someone (a woman) to charge into the gunfire....... and stop him with well placed shots.

 bobf



On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 11:47 AM, Steve W <steve2(at)sover.net (steve2(at)sover.net)> wrote:

[quote]        Agreed in principle Nico. I've approved of family  packing when appropriate, and I know of a couple instances where friends and  family both have only had to display some heat to turn away bad people intending  to do harm. It is appropriate and constitutionally protected to be able to  reasonably defend oneself.

  

 I do think there is a problem inherent in the  advance of the technology of 'arms'. When the framers wrote our founding  documents, one man with a muzzle loading musket would have a difficult time  killing two people. But now it is possible to quickly and efficiently kill  lots more people faster. Virginia Tech was 30 something people? Binghamton was  13, Alabama was 10 or eleven? This wsn't done with a Peacemaker. Hundreds of  rounds can be fired in minutes. We're now seeing  mass killings as a regular occurrence and it isn't even registering, or if it is  at all its seen as further evidence we need easier access to more lethal  weapons. 

  

 The point Nico, is that while I am guaranteed the  right to arms, does this right extend without limit? Its just odd how people  have been completely inflexible and absolutist when it comes to some  constitutional rights, yet perfectly willing to give up on others in the name of  being kept safe from terrorist bad guys. Its that fear and safety thing again,  maybe. Having easy and unlimited access to any and all weapons make one 'feel'  safer, while at the same time on a macrocosmic scale increasing the likelyhood  of being killed by them.

  

 You could perform a robbery or murder with a 38  special, or maybe defend yourself, but we're seeing something different  happening now. I don't have answers, maybe only questions.

  

 Steve

  

 [quote]   ---

dongirod

Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 140

Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 1:09 pm Post subject: It is time...

Steve;

  

 I have a lot of mixed emotions on this, but, as  near as I can figure out, when the Second Amendment was adopted, the citizen  could own and carry the same weapons the military could, in like manner,  concealed or in plain sight.  Maybe that was to protect against all  enemies, foreign and domestic.  And remember, the oath I took was to  "protect and defend the Constitution" period.

  

 I believe it is Vermont has the correct  interpretation, if you are legal to buy it you are legal to carry it,  period.

  

 Don

 [quote]   ---

John Vormbaum

Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Posts: 273
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 7:21 am Post subject: It is time...

 	  Quote: 	
		     I do think    there is a problem inherent in the advance of the technology of 'arms'. When    the framers wrote our founding documents, one man with a muzzle loading musket    would have a difficult time killing two people. But now it is possible to    quickly and efficiently kill lots more people faster. Virginia Tech was 30    something people? Binghamton was 13, Alabama was 10 or eleven? This wsn't done    with a Peacemaker. Hundreds of rounds can be fired in minutes. We're now seeing mass killings as a    regular occurrence and it isn't even registering, or if it is at all its seen    as further evidence we need easier access to more lethal weapons.    

	
 Steve,

  

 The problem with your argument is that you're trying to  alter the behavior of psychotics by attacking inanimate tools. I have the  ultimate logical leap that would make all the above shootings disappear: let's  make murder 100% illegal! That'll fix it!

  

 The 2nd amendment can't be limited because of the  improvement of technology. The founding fathers  did not have muzzle loaders in mind when they framed the 2nd Amendment. They had  PEOPLE in mind. You can't put the genie back in the bottle; limiting the  law to peacemakers, for instance, still wouldn't stop a nutball from getting his  hands on anything he wanted. The Virginia Tech shooting was perpetrated with a  couple of run-of-the-mill handguns. Carrying weapons on campus was already  illegal. How did that work out for the students that day? The 2nd Amendment is  more valuable now than it was back when it was first put forth. The true purpose  of the 2nd Amendment would have been more clearly demonstrated had ONE  responsible student at VT had his own handgun that day. Yes, people may have  still been killed, but one armed student could have put that shooting to a  sudden and appropriate end, and saved many lives. Even as a deterrent, an armed  student might have just kept the shooter holed up in another room while SWAT  mobilized. What if the shooter hadn't killed himself? The news choppers would  have continued to circle and the local SWAT team would have continued to manage  their "perimeter" while the school was kept in "lockdown". A well-prepared  shooter could have taken many dozens more victims with him. If a  legally armed teacher had killed Klebold & Harris at Columbine as soon  as they started shooting, how many copycat shootings would have ensued? Maybe  none. I'm also aware of the other side of the issue; it takes a strong sense of  responsibility and maturity to carry a lethal weapon. But the same sense of  responsibility is assumed when a driver's license is issued.

  

 Robert A. Heinlein said it best: "An armed society is a  polite society." Or Andy Rooney on 60 Minutes: "I can kill someone just  as dead with a baseball bat or my car, but nobody is trying to stop me from  driving to the ball game."

  

 In a world where cities are growing and population  density is increasing, CCW is more valid, not less. A quick Google search showed  me some reports that roughly 4.4% of the human population has reported psychotic  behavior. So in a city of 3 million people, does that mean there might be as  many as 132,000 people ready to snap and do something crazy?  

  	  Quote: 	
		     Nico: Come    on, Steve. Nobody is going to shoot someone solely because there is a gun in    his hand. If there is enough motive and demeanor, a killing is fixed, gun or    not. Knowing the other guy might also be packing heat has been proven to be an    instant sedative.

	
 Nico nails it right here. People kill. Take the guns, they use knives. Take the knives, they use clubs. Take the clubs away and they'll use rocks or their bare hands. You can't legislate human nature by  taking the guns.

  

 /John

  

 PS: I'm a  competitive shooter & enthusiast. Incidentally, my guns haven't killed  ANYONE.

 



   



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[b]

jtaddington(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 1:09 pm Post subject: It is time...

John,  

You have hit it on the head. Any one that thinks the criminals are going to run down and turn in their gun is certainly not thinking clearly, these are people that don’t obey the law to start with. They will just sit back and laugh their heads off. Being unarmed just makes their job easer. I saw a program on TV 20 years ago where they were interviewing a felon and he said he was not supposed to own a gun but if you tell him what you want he can get it within 24 hours and this was single shot to full automatic. The reason fire power has increased over the years is because the fire power the bad guys have has improved. If every one went through the CHL class and found out the laws, got over the fear of guns and what the bad guys are doing it would be better, even if they did not intend to carry. I think they would be afraid not to carry when they found out what is really going on.  

I learned a lot and it is scary what some of the bad guys do such as bringing a battery powered drill and threaten to drill holes in your knee caps if you don’t tell them where things are they ask for.   

It boils down to a matter of when second’s count the police are only minutes away. I may be wrong but I think there is one police officer per 1200 people.   

I am such a red neck gun nut I was reluctant to add my two cents but her it is.  

Jim A  

         

  

From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum

 Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 10:20 AM

 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: It is time...  

  

    	  Quote: 	
		    

I do think there is a problem inherent in the advance of the technology of 'arms'. When the framers wrote our founding documents, one man with a muzzle loading musket would have a difficult time killing two people. But now it is possible to quickly and efficiently kill lots more people faster. Virginia Tech was 30 something people? Binghamton was 13, Alabama was 10 or eleven? This wsn't done with a Peacemaker. Hundreds of rounds can be fired in minutes. We're now seeing mass killings as a regular occurrence and it isn't even registering, or if it is at all its seen as further evidence we need easier access to more lethal weapons.   	
  

Steve,  

   

The problem with your argument is that you're trying to alter the behavior of psychotics by attacking inanimate tools. I have the ultimate logical leap that would make all the above shootings disappear: let's make murder 100% illegal! That'll fix it!  

   

The 2nd amendment can't be limited because of the improvement of technology. The founding fathers did not have muzzle loaders in mind when they framed the 2nd Amendment. They had PEOPLE in mind. You can't put the genie back in the bottle; limiting the law to peacemakers, for instance, still wouldn't stop a nutball from getting his hands on anything he wanted. The Virginia Tech shooting was perpetrated with a couple of run-of-the-mill handguns. Carrying weapons on campus was already illegal. How did that work out for the students that day? The 2nd Amendment is more valuable now than it was back when it was first put forth. The true purpose of the 2nd Amendment would have been more clearly demonstrated had ONE responsible student at VT had his own handgun that day. Yes, people may have still been killed, but one armed student could have put that shooting to a sudden and appropriate end, and saved many lives. Even as a deterrent, an armed student might have just kept the shooter holed up in another room while SWAT mobilized. What if the shooter hadn't killed himself? The news choppers would have continued to circle and the local SWAT team would have continued to manage their "perimeter" while the school was kept in "lockdown". A well-prepared shooter could have taken many dozens more victims with him. If a legally armed teacher had killed Klebold & Harris at Columbine as soon as they started shooting, how many copycat shootings would have ensued? Maybe none. I'm also aware of the other side of the issue; it takes a strong sense of responsibility and maturity to carry a lethal weapon. But the same sense of responsibility is assumed when a driver's license is issued.  

   

Robert A. Heinlein said it best: "An armed society is a polite society." Or Andy Rooney on 60 Minutes: "I can kill someone just as dead with a baseball bat or my car, but nobody is trying to stop me from driving to the ball game."  

   

In a world where cities are growing and population density is increasing, CCW is more valid, not less. A quick Google search showed me some reports that roughly 4.4% of the human population has reported psychotic behavior. So in a city of 3 million people, does that mean there might be as many as 132,000 people ready to snap and do something crazy?    	  Quote: 	
		    

Nico: Come on, Steve. Nobody is going to shoot someone solely because there is a gun in his hand. If there is enough motive and demeanor, a killing is fixed, gun or not. Knowing the other guy might also be packing heat has been proven to be an instant sedative.  	
    

Nico nails it right here. People kill. Take the guns, they use knives. Take the knives, they use clubs. Take the clubs away and they'll use rocks or their bare hands. You can't legislate human nature by taking the guns.  

    

   

    

/John  

    

   

    

PS: I'm a competitive shooter & enthusiast. Incidentally, my guns haven't killed ANYONE.  

    

   

      

  



 

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       [quote][b]

bobf(at)feldtman.com
Guest

Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 1:11 pm Post subject: It is time...

fyi ---



 State Representative Joe Driver (R-Garland) would allow Concealed Handgun Licensees to protect themselves on the campuses of public colleges and universities.  Campus settings are not "crime-free" zones.  Adult students, faculty, staff and visitors who are 21 or older, who pass an extensive state and federal criminal records check, and who complete a rigorous handgun training course, should not be denied their right to self-defense simply because they study, live, work on or visit a college or university campus. CHLs have been lawfully carrying handguns for protection virtually everywhere in Texas for more than a dozen years, and there is no statistical data or evidence that they would suddenly transform into irresponsible criminals if legally allowed to enter a college or university setting.

 

 This important self-defense reform needs to pass this year, before the anti-gun extremists in Washington gain momentum that filters down to the state level.  Please call and email your State Representatives and urge them to SUPPORT HB 1893 on the House floor and to OPPOSE any amendments not supported by the bill sponsor.



On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 11:47 AM, Steve W <steve2(at)sover.net (steve2(at)sover.net)> wrote:

[quote]        Agreed in principle Nico. I've approved of family  packing when appropriate, and I know of a couple instances where friends and  family both have only had to display some heat to turn away bad people intending  to do harm. It is appropriate and constitutionally protected to be able to  reasonably defend oneself.

  

 I do think there is a problem inherent in the  advance of the technology of 'arms'. When the framers wrote our founding  documents, one man with a muzzle loading musket would have a difficult time  killing two people. But now it is possible to quickly and efficiently kill  lots more people faster. Virginia Tech was 30 something people? Binghamton was  13, Alabama was 10 or eleven? This wsn't done with a Peacemaker. Hundreds of  rounds can be fired in minutes. We're now seeing  mass killings as a regular occurrence and it isn't even registering, or if it is  at all its seen as further evidence we need easier access to more lethal  weapons. 

  

 The point Nico, is that while I am guaranteed the  right to arms, does this right extend without limit? Its just odd how people  have been completely inflexible and absolutist when it comes to some  constitutional rights, yet perfectly willing to give up on others in the name of  being kept safe from terrorist bad guys. Its that fear and safety thing again,  maybe. Having easy and unlimited access to any and all weapons make one 'feel'  safer, while at the same time on a macrocosmic scale increasing the likelyhood  of being killed by them.

  

 You could perform a robbery or murder with a 38  special, or maybe defend yourself, but we're seeing something different  happening now. I don't have answers, maybe only questions.

  

 Steve

  

 [quote]   ---

jtaddington(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 1:34 pm Post subject: It is time...

Every city, state and country that has banded guns has seen a big increase in crime. If you go to the CHL class and work hard to get it you are not going to do something stupid to lose it, plus, you know better what you can do and had better not do. All the signs that say no guns allowed are telling the crooks that this is a safe place to rob.  

Jim        

  

From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Feldtman

 Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 4:11 PM

 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: It is time...  

  

   

fyi ---

 

 State Representative Joe Driver (R-Garland) would allow Concealed Handgun Licensees to protect themselves on the campuses of public colleges and universities.  Campus settings are not "crime-free" zones.  Adult students, faculty, staff and visitors who are 21 or older, who pass an extensive state and federal criminal records check, and who complete a rigorous handgun training course, should not be denied their right to self-defense simply because they study, live, work on or visit a college or university campus. CHLs have been lawfully carrying handguns for protection virtually everywhere in Texas for more than a dozen years, and there is no statistical data or evidence that they would suddenly transform into irresponsible criminals if legally allowed to enter a college or university setting.

 

 This important self-defense reform needs to pass this year, before the anti-gun extremists in Washington gain momentum that filters down to the state level.  Please call and email your State Representatives and urge them to SUPPORT HB 1893 on the House floor and to OPPOSE any amendments not supported by the bill sponsor.    

On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 11:47 AM, Steve W <steve2(at)sover.net (steve2(at)sover.net)> wrote:      

Agreed in principle Nico. I've approved of family packing when appropriate, and I know of a couple instances where friends and family both have only had to display some heat to turn away bad people intending to do harm. It is appropriate and constitutionally protected to be able to reasonably defend oneself.  

    

   

    

I do think there is a problem inherent in the advance of the technology of 'arms'. When the framers wrote our founding documents, one man with a muzzle loading musket would have a difficult time killing two people. But now it is possible to quickly and efficiently kill lots more people faster. Virginia Tech was 30 something people? Binghamton was 13, Alabama was 10 or eleven? This wsn't done with a Peacemaker. Hundreds of rounds can be fired in minutes. We're now seeing mass killings as a regular occurrence and it isn't even registering, or if it is at all its seen as further evidence we need easier access to more lethal weapons.   

    

   

    

The point Nico, is that while I am guaranteed the right to arms, does this right extend without limit? Its just odd how people have been completely inflexible and absolutist when it comes to some constitutional rights, yet perfectly willing to give up on others in the name of being kept safe from terrorist bad guys. Its that fear and safety thing again, maybe. Having easy and unlimited access to any and all weapons make one 'feel' safer, while at the same time on a macrocosmic scale increasing the likelyhood of being killed by them.  

    

   

    

You could perform a robbery or murder with a 38 special, or maybe defend yourself, but we're seeing something different happening now. I don't have answers, maybe only questions.  

    

   

    

Steve  

    

   

  [quote]    

---

steve2(at)sover.net
Guest

Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 4:04 am Post subject: It is time...

John,

  

 I read a couple of Jim's posts below and I don't  have a lot of trouble with his perspective. I don't know if all the facts are  true, but his is the approach of a responsible owner of firearms and would no  doubt use one with care and safety. It is his right to own weapons as granted  under the Constitution and I don't want that right ever taken away. I don't want  to disagree with Andy Rooney, but I don't buy the firearm is just 'benign  appliance' that can be used properly or improperly like baseball bats and  cars.

  

 A toaster is an appliance. It's job is to make  toast. Clearly there are some individuals who shouldn't own a toaster, who  are a menace to themselves and occasionally society. But because of the vast  number of toasters on the streets due to our fascination with making perfect  toast, its all too easy for the criminal and the incompetent to gain access to  increasingly powerful toasters. Because of the toaster's intended use and  function, even in cases of tragic neglect or willful misuse the casualties  remain low in number. Of course, a deranged or determined individual could  probably kill one or two men with a toaster before being subdued. (Particularly  with one of those old chrome jobbies.) Still, society at large doesn't view the  vast number of toasters available as a particular threat, as it can be argued in  the right hands other appliances could be just as lethal. Considering the  hundreds of millions of kitchen appliances produced over the decades there  have been surprisingly few documented cases mass murder.

  

 I'm interested in how these appliances become  available to people who intend harm. For example you said that the Virginia Tech  shootings were perpetrated with run of the mill handguns. I think your  point was that the guns used were commonplace. They were nothing special and  easy to acquire. The specific problem I have I think is the attitude that these  weapons will just appear on streets in a process we are powerless to do anything  about or should even try. Not to be a smart-aleck, but I did look up to see what  firearms were used at VT, and while I was at it also in Columbine and  Binghamton. (It wasn't very pleasant reading and the reminders of personal  tragedy and heroism is enough to break your heart.)

  

 At VT the guy had a Glock semi-auto with hollow  points, along with a Walther. Hard to get it straight, but it sounds as if he  had at least a bunch of 15 round magazines. Binghamton the guy had two Beretta  semi-auto pistols and it appears at least one 30(?) round magazine and laser  sighting. Columbine one of the kiddies had that Tec-9 thing, that has 52, 32 and  28 round magazines in a semi-auto pistol....... John I suppose my point is, how  is it that these firearms are now becoming commonplace and easy to acquire? What  justification is there to own such a thing? Now I know everyone will probably  say they don't need a justification. It is their right to own such a weapon. I'm  not yet prepared to say it isn't their right because of the constitutional  implications of doing so. But I am prepared to ask if it is correct and  responsible to exercise that right with that class of firearm.

  

 I am prepared to sacrifice some level of safety and  bear some degree of risk to live in a free society. As a free society I don't  want to impose unjust laws, or restrain a person's right to do most anything  they want. I would submit for discussion, it is possible (only possible) that  the exercising the right to by any firearm you feel like may have consequences  not much thought of. Purchasing such weapons is creating an industry for them.  So many say that gun laws are senseless as you can't keep guns out of the hands  of the bad guys. But this seems to be ignoring the entire economy around such  firearms. Who is making them, who is buying them, how are they getting to the  streets. People can get off on owning these things, but they are supporting the  manufacturing of increasingly lethal weapons which will be a around for  generations.

  

 Is Joe-Six-Pack's need to compensate for a small  weenie and lust for a firearm class I am having a hard time seeing a legitimate  use for contributing to the filling of the streets with increasingly lethal  appliances only a very few have a real need for. I'm uncomfortable with  draconian legal restrictions. But it is possible the gun owning community has  not acted responsibly by failing to acknowledge a larger  responsibility.

  

 I've probably worn out my welcome and would be  happy to take a conversation off list.

  

 P.S. My buddy's large caliber potato canon is more  fun to shoot than my shotgun.

  

 Steve

  

  

 [quote]   ---

moe-rosspistons(at)hotmai
Guest

Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 4:19 am Post subject: It is time...

 

 Folks,

  

 Is anyone other than Linn and Myself  going to the NRA convention this week in Phoenix?  We will be flying N680RR  down on Thursday.

  

 Moe Mills

 N680RR

 Proud Holder of The Golden Pedal  Award

  

  



  From: Jim Addington (jtaddington(at)verizon.net) 

 Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 2:31 PM

 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)  

 Subject: RE: Re: It is time...

 



  

Every city, state and  country that has banded guns has seen a big increase in crime. If you go to the  CHL class and work hard to get it you are not going to do something stupid to  lose it, plus, you know better what you can do and had better not do. All the  signs that say no guns allowed are telling the crooks that this is a safe place  to rob. 

Jim    

 

From:  owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com)  [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Feldtman

Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 4:11  PM

To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: It is  time...

 

  

fyi ---



State Representative  Joe Driver (R-Garland) would allow Concealed Handgun Licensees to protect  themselves on the campuses of public colleges and universities.  Campus  settings are not "crime-free" zones.  Adult students, faculty, staff and  visitors who are 21 or older, who pass an extensive state and federal criminal  records check, and who complete a rigorous handgun training course, should not  be denied their right to self-defense simply because they study, live, work on  or visit a college or university campus. CHLs have been lawfully carrying  handguns for protection virtually everywhere in Texas for more than a dozen years, and there  is no statistical data or evidence that they would suddenly transform into  irresponsible criminals if legally allowed to enter a college or university  setting.



This important self-defense reform needs to pass this year,  before the anti-gun extremists in Washington gain momentum that filters down to  the state level.  Please call and email your State Representatives and urge  them to SUPPORT HB 1893 on the  House floor and to OPPOSE any amendments not supported by the bill  sponsor.  

On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 11:47 AM, Steve W <steve2(at)sover.net (steve2(at)sover.net)>  wrote:   

Agreed in principle Nico. I've  approved of family packing when appropriate, and I know of a couple instances  where friends and family both have only had to display some heat to turn away  bad people intending to do harm. It is appropriate and constitutionally  protected to be able to reasonably defend  oneself.

  

 

  

I do think there is a problem  inherent in the advance of the technology of 'arms'. When the framers wrote our  founding documents, one man with a muzzle loading musket would have a difficult  time killing two people. But now it is possible to quickly and efficiently  kill lots more people faster. Virginia Tech was 30 something people? Binghamton was 13, Alabama was 10 or eleven? This wsn't done with  a Peacemaker. Hundreds of rounds can be fired in minutes. We're now seeing mass  killings as a regular occurrence and it isn't even registering, or if it is at  all its seen as further evidence we need easier access to more lethal weapons.  

  

 

  

The point Nico, is that while I am  guaranteed the right to arms, does this right extend without limit? Its just odd  how people have been completely inflexible and absolutist when it comes to some  constitutional rights, yet perfectly willing to give up on others in the name of  being kept safe from terrorist bad guys. Its that fear and safety thing again,  maybe. Having easy and unlimited access to any and all weapons make one 'feel'  safer, while at the same time on a macrocosmic scale increasing the likelyhood  of being killed by them.

  

 

  

You could perform a robbery or  murder with a 38 special, or maybe defend yourself, but we're seeing something  different happening now. I don't have answers, maybe only  questions.

  

 

  

Steve

  

 

 [quote]      

---

jtaddington(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 6:22 am Post subject: It is time...

Moe,  

I am not able to go but am glad you are.  

I pestered John to death about the battery set up and he has lost his contacts with the FAA. My AI is going to see if we can use two 12 aircraft gell cell batteries. It is sad that the FAA does not have anyone with enough back bone to say yes.  

Jim  

         

  

From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Moe-rosspistons

 Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 7:17 AM

 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: It is time...  

  

     

   

    

[b]Folks,[/b]  

    

   

    

[b]Is anyone other than Linn and Myself going to the NRA convention this week in Phoenix?  We will be flying N680RR down on Thursday.[/b]  

    

   

    

[b]Moe Mills[/b]  

    

[b]N680RR[/b]  

    

[b]Proud Holder of The Golden Pedal Award[/b]  

    

   

      

   

      

From: Jim Addington (jtaddington(at)verizon.net)   

    

Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 2:31 PM  

    

To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Subject: RE: Re: It is time...  

  

  

    

   

  

Every city, state and country that has banded guns has seen a big increase in crime. If you go to the CHL class and work hard to get it you are not going to do something stupid to lose it, plus, you know better what you can do and had better not do. All the signs that say no guns allowed are telling the crooks that this is a safe place to rob.  

Jim        

  

From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Feldtman

 Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 4:11 PM

 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: It is time...  

  

   

fyi ---

 

 State Representative Joe Driver (R-Garland) would allow Concealed Handgun Licensees to protect themselves on the campuses of public colleges and universities.  Campus settings are not "crime-free" zones.  Adult students, faculty, staff and visitors who are 21 or older, who pass an extensive state and federal criminal records check, and who complete a rigorous handgun training course, should not be denied their right to self-defense simply because they study, live, work on or visit a college or university campus. CHLs have been lawfully carrying handguns for protection virtually everywhere in Texas for more than a dozen years, and there is no statistical data or evidence that they would suddenly transform into irresponsible criminals if legally allowed to enter a college or university setting.

 

 This important self-defense reform needs to pass this year, before the anti-gun extremists in Washington gain momentum that filters down to the state level.  Please call and email your State Representatives and urge them to SUPPORT HB 1893 on the House floor and to OPPOSE any amendments not supported by the bill sponsor.    

On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 11:47 AM, Steve W <steve2(at)sover.net (steve2(at)sover.net)> wrote:      

Agreed in principle Nico. I've approved of family packing when appropriate, and I know of a couple instances where friends and family both have only had to display some heat to turn away bad people intending to do harm. It is appropriate and constitutionally protected to be able to reasonably defend oneself.  

    

   

    

I do think there is a problem inherent in the advance of the technology of 'arms'. When the framers wrote our founding documents, one man with a muzzle loading musket would have a difficult time killing two people. But now it is possible to quickly and efficiently kill lots more people faster. Virginia Tech was 30 something people? Binghamton was 13, Alabama was 10 or eleven? This wsn't done with a Peacemaker. Hundreds of rounds can be fired in minutes. We're now seeing mass killings as a regular occurrence and it isn't even registering, or if it is at all its seen as further evidence we need easier access to more lethal weapons.   

    

   

    

The point Nico, is that while I am guaranteed the right to arms, does this right extend without limit? Its just odd how people have been completely inflexible and absolutist when it comes to some constitutional rights, yet perfectly willing to give up on others in the name of being kept safe from terrorist bad guys. Its that fear and safety thing again, maybe. Having easy and unlimited access to any and all weapons make one 'feel' safer, while at the same time on a macrocosmic scale increasing the likelyhood of being killed by them.  

    

   

    

You could perform a robbery or murder with a 38 special, or maybe defend yourself, but we're seeing something different happening now. I don't have answers, maybe only questions.  

    

   

    

Steve  

    

   

  [quote]    

---

John Vormbaum

Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Posts: 273
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 7:42 am Post subject: It is time...

Steve,

  

 I'll say it again; you can't put the genie back in the  bottle. Want to blame someone? Blame the military-industrial complex...but it  doesn't matter. As long as Russia, China, etc. continue to advance developments  in weaponry, we'll be required to keep up. Just like the founding fathers  weren't thinking of the first repeating rifle, or Sam Colt's revolver, to use  your argument, you're not thinking ahead to caseless ammunition weapons (which  exist now, and although unrefined, offer unprecedented individual  firepower) or the plasma rifles of science fiction. Increasing the  lethality & simplicity of weapns is the human constant, ever since David  discovered that a leather strap can do more than hold your pants up. The market  will exist for the equipment regardless of the strength of a "why can't we all  just get along" argument.

  

 My goal is simply to make sure that I have access to the  same equipment that the people who can threaten me do. As far as availability,  we already have exceptional laws on the books to prevent criminals from getting  guns. They don't work. They never will. Just like the War on Drugs. Opiates are  very tightly controlled, and we spend billions and billions every year to combat  it; but you can still go to a street corner in any major American city and  get what you want...cheaply and within a couple of minutes. Gun control will  always remain ineffective, because it can't address the Remainder Problem: the  250,000,000 firearms already in private hands in the US. It may work, for a  little while, on islands like Australia and the UK (notice it hasn't; gun crime  has risen precipitously since their bans & voluntary turn-ins), but stands  no chance here, in Africa, or in Asia.

  

 As far as the VT/Columbine shootings etc., non-gun people  are still absorbed by misconceptions. A handgun is a horrible tool to use in a  killing. They're inaccurate, low-powered, and more than 90% of handgun shooting  victims live if they're treated professionally within the first hour. I have a  friend that did 2 rotations as an EMT in Compton back in the early '90s. It got  to the point where they rarely went lights-and-sirens to a handgun  shooting...there's no hurry. Hollowpoints? Hollowpoints are NOT designed to be  more lethal. They're not. Full metal jacket (FMJ or Ball ammo) is a far superior  killer, and why the military is so fond of it. The sole purpose of a hollowpoint  is to expand quickly and prevent overpenetration. You want to kill the bad guy  in your house; you don't want the bullet going through 2 extra walls and hurting  your children.

  

 In the VT shooting, which would have been more lethal? 5  30-round magazines or 30 5-round magazines? Doesn't matter. Same number of  people would have died, but the shooter would have gotten some quality  high-speed reload practice if he'd had the smaller capacity mags. Ever tried a  laser sight on a handgun? There's a reason they're still curiosities, and  largely unused. They respond to every bump of your heart and twitch of your  muscles, multiplied by the distance. At 15' all you realize is how likely you  are to miss. They're a distraction. You don't see Navy SEAL entry teams using  them for a reason.

  

 Basing availability on need or justification is a very  slippery slope. You DO NOT need your own airplane. Especially a twin. Perhaps we  should limit everyone to a Bonanza; although they're awfully high horsepower for  a single. Perhaps ultralights would be safer for neighborhoods, less damage to  housing when they crash, and gee, you can still get the same enjoyment out of  it.

  

 I live in California. This state has banned assault rifles  by characteristic, model number and name brand. Guess what? It has created a  HUGE black market. By some estimates, more than 350,000 rifles have come into  the state since the ban took effect in 2001. The state has decided that it can  no longer prosecute possession of these rifles as a felony; the legal system  would collapse under its own weight, so they're making possession a "public  nuisance" which would result in confiscation and a $100 fine. Talk about a  self-defeating set of laws...

  	  Quote: 	
		     Is Joe-Six-Pack's need to compensate for a small weenie and lust for a    firearm class I am having a hard time seeing a legitimate use for contributing    to the filling of the streets with increasingly lethal appliances only a very    few have a real need for. I'm uncomfortable with draconian legal restrictions.    But it is possible the gun owning community has not acted responsibly by    failing to acknowledge a larger responsibility.

	
 It's this attitude and argument that grows so tiresome. It's always the small weenie thing. Thanks to small weenies, a bunch of us have to fly around in the Largest Light Twin, right? Why can't you photo/map with an ultralight, or a Cessna 182? How do you define "a very real need" for 

 a class of firearm? The fact that YOU don't see it as necessary means it should be banned? The stories that DON'T make the (very liberal) papers  are the ones where a home invasion robbery is thwarted because one resident with  a high-capacity high-rate-of-fire firearm was able to deter a gang of thugs from  entering his home. No shots fired, no harm done, everyone safely at home that  evening. Think he'd have done as well with the baseball bat? Or a 5-shot  revolver?

  

 I've probably worn out my welcome too, so I won't post  anymore on the subject. I respect your views, and recognize that you're taking  the higher moral ground, and I have no problem with that. I even applaud it. But  I'm a pragmatist. Sheep can't be convinced, and they need someone easy to fill  the camps with first.

  

 Now back to  flying....

  

 /J

 



   From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve  W

Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 5:00 AM

To:  commander-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: It is  time...

 

 John,

  

 I read a couple of Jim's posts below and I don't  have a lot of trouble with his perspective. I don't know if all the facts are  true, but his is the approach of a responsible owner of firearms and would no  doubt use one with care and safety. It is his right to own weapons as granted  under the Constitution and I don't want that right ever taken away. I don't want  to disagree with Andy Rooney, but I don't buy the firearm is just 'benign  appliance' that can be used properly or improperly like baseball bats and  cars.

  

 A toaster is an appliance. It's job is to make  toast. Clearly there are some individuals who shouldn't own a toaster, who  are a menace to themselves and occasionally society. But because of the vast  number of toasters on the streets due to our fascination with making perfect  toast, its all too easy for the criminal and the incompetent to gain access to  increasingly powerful toasters. Because of the toaster's intended use and  function, even in cases of tragic neglect or willful misuse the casualties  remain low in number. Of course, a deranged or determined individual could  probably kill one or two men with a toaster before being subdued. (Particularly  with one of those old chrome jobbies.) Still, society at large doesn't view the  vast number of toasters available as a particular threat, as it can be argued in  the right hands other appliances could be just as lethal. Considering the  hundreds of millions of kitchen appliances produced over the decades there  have been surprisingly few documented cases mass murder.

  

 I'm interested in how these appliances become  available to people who intend harm. For example you said that the Virginia Tech  shootings were perpetrated with run of the mill handguns. I think your  point was that the guns used were commonplace. They were nothing special and  easy to acquire. The specific problem I have I think is the attitude that these  weapons will just appear on streets in a process we are powerless to do anything  about or should even try. Not to be a smart-aleck, but I did look up to see what  firearms were used at VT, and while I was at it also in Columbine and  Binghamton. (It wasn't very pleasant reading and the reminders of personal  tragedy and heroism is enough to break your heart.)

  

 At VT the guy had a Glock semi-auto with hollow  points, along with a Walther. Hard to get it straight, but it sounds as if he  had at least a bunch of 15 round magazines. Binghamton the guy had two Beretta  semi-auto pistols and it appears at least one 30(?) round magazine and laser  sighting. Columbine one of the kiddies had that Tec-9 thing, that has 52, 32 and  28 round magazines in a semi-auto pistol....... John I suppose my point is, how  is it that these firearms are now becoming commonplace and easy to acquire? What  justification is there to own such a thing? Now I know everyone will probably  say they don't need a justification. It is their right to own such a weapon. I'm  not yet prepared to say it isn't their right because of the constitutional  implications of doing so. But I am prepared to ask if it is correct and  responsible to exercise that right with that class of firearm.

  

 I am prepared to sacrifice some level of safety and  bear some degree of risk to live in a free society. As a free society I don't  want to impose unjust laws, or restrain a person's right to do most anything  they want. I would submit for discussion, it is possible (only possible) that  the exercising the right to by any firearm you feel like may have consequences  not much thought of. Purchasing such weapons is creating an industry for them.  So many say that gun laws are senseless as you can't keep guns out of the hands  of the bad guys. But this seems to be ignoring the entire economy around such  firearms. Who is making them, who is buying them, how are they getting to the  streets. People can get off on owning these things, but they are supporting the  manufacturing of increasingly lethal weapons which will be a around for  generations.

  

 Is Joe-Six-Pack's need to compensate for a small  weenie and lust for a firearm class I am having a hard time seeing a legitimate  use for contributing to the filling of the streets with increasingly lethal  appliances only a very few have a real need for. I'm uncomfortable with  draconian legal restrictions. But it is possible the gun owning community has  not acted responsibly by failing to acknowledge a larger  responsibility.

  

 I've probably worn out my welcome and would be  happy to take a conversation off list.

  

 P.S. My buddy's large caliber potato canon is more  fun to shoot than my shotgun.

  

 Steve

  

  

 [quote]   ---

RnJThompson(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 2:04 pm Post subject: It is time...

Jim & Moe,  

Whats the battery story?  

I assume that you want to replace the large battery with something lighter.  

I have two G35 batteries in place of the G50. Aero Commander did a service mod years ago. All I did was substitute modern batteries for the models they used. Have all the paperwork here somewhere.  

If you are interested I will find it and forward it.  

Cheers  

Richard  

   

--

mdella(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 2:36 pm Post subject: It is time...

Sorry to jump in here as I am new to the mailing list...



I have a 560 and am trying to find the battery tray (last shop took it out and "lost" mine).  Additionally I'm trying to understand what you're looking at doing with two G35s rather than the G50 battery...

 

Marcos

On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 2:59 PM, Richard & Jacqui Thompson <RnJThompson(at)aol.com (RnJThompson(at)aol.com)> wrote:

[quote]                 

Jim & Moe,  

Whats the battery story?  

I assume that you want to replace the large battery with something lighter.  

I have two G35 batteries in place of the G50. Aero Commander did a service mod years ago. All I did was substitute modern batteries for the models they used. Have all the paperwork here somewhere.  

If you are interested I will find it and forward it.  

Cheers  

Richard  

   

--

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