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Herb Graff

Joined: 21 Sep 2009
Posts: 12

Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:54 pm Post subject: Trim System Question

With about 3 hours of initial test flying completed on a plans built Kolb  Mark III, trim seems to be OK, at least in 2 axes. When I let go of the control  stick, the kolb flies nice and level and the long yarn from the front mounted  antenna flies perfectly straight. I can let go for about a good 3 seconds.  This was achieved with both Aileron and Rudder trim tabs.

  

 Except there is a slight pitch control problem. With pitch settings all the  way to the front, (at which point some slack just started in the spring system),  the nose wants to go pitch down.. When set to the first notch, now the nose  wants to pitch up. I seem to need some setting in between.

  

 I'm thinking the simplest fix, is to replace the two hefty springs with  slightly weaker ones, as well make them a smitchen longer to get more into the  center of the operating settings.

  

 So my question:  Is there anything wrong with this approach, or are  there better (simpler?) ways to achieve the desired result. 

  

 I will appreciate your comments.

  

 Herb Graff

 Kolb Mark III 246KT

  

  

  

  

  [quote][b]

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:51 am Post subject: Trim System Question

Herb, What engine are you running?



Rick Girard

do not archive



On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 12:43 AM,  <HGRAFF(at)aol.com (HGRAFF(at)aol.com)> wrote:

 [quote]      

 With about 3 hours of initial test flying completed on a plans built Kolb  Mark III, trim seems to be OK, at least in 2 axes. When I let go of the control  stick, the kolb flies nice and level and the long yarn from the front mounted  antenna flies perfectly straight. I can let go for about a good 3 seconds.  This was achieved with both Aileron and Rudder trim tabs.

  

 Except there is a slight pitch control problem. With pitch settings all the  way to the front, (at which point some slack just started in the spring system),  the nose wants to go pitch down.. When set to the first notch, now the nose  wants to pitch up. I seem to need some setting in between.

  

 I'm thinking the simplest fix, is to replace the two hefty springs with  slightly weaker ones, as well make them a smitchen longer to get more into the  center of the operating settings.

  

 So my question:  Is there anything wrong with this approach, or are  there better (simpler?) ways to achieve the desired result. 

  

 I will appreciate your comments.

  

 Herb Graff

 Kolb Mark III 246KT

  

  

  

  

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NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:06 am Post subject: Trim System Question

Herb

  

 Kolbs are by definition unstable, easy to control but but need to be flown  all the time. First try adjusting the trim cable to find that point where your  plane will fly more level in a notch. It would really be nice to be able to fold  maps in flight on cross countries. So far I have been able to trim the plane for  3-5 seconds but that has been it. Even with good stability thermals tend to  upset things a bunch. As with any design there are trade offs and stability  is one that falls short. Try the softer springs and let us know. I have also  seen a really good elevator trim tab system that was purchased from Rans  Aircraft that might also help. Maybe Steve Spence could share his success with  his Rans trim system.

  

 In Florida for the winter with my airplane. 

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC

 [quote]   ---

Herb Graff

Joined: 21 Sep 2009
Posts: 12

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:42 am Post subject: Trim System Question

Rick,  I'm running with a 2 cycle, forced air cooled, 65 HP, dual  magneto type ignition,  Hirth engine, that so far with 12 hours on  it (because of run-in time etc),  is purring (screaming?) away without  a hitch. Lubrication is with the recommended 100:1 mix with Blue Max oil. Had to  upgrade the Battery from 160 to 310 CCA so the starter would always go through  the compression. Now cranking speed may be enough to taxi with.  Yeah, I  would rather fly with the older four-stroke Revmaster VW, that was  first mounted, but which badly put the A/C out of CG. (Yes, I know about the VW  powered Kolbs) Too bad, the sound of the Revmaster at idle very much  matched a P51 taxiing by. I have a video with that marvelous sound and could  upload it, if I find out how to do that.

  

 Herb Graff

 Mark III 246KTdo 

  

  In a message dated 11/9/2009 6:51:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Herb,    What engine are you running?    



   Rick Girard

   do not archive

	


  [quote][b]

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:03 am Post subject: Trim System Question

Herb, I have a Rotax 582. When I rebuilt the airplane I incorporate a mix of the 582 and 618 mounts to get the thrust line down as low as I could get it while running a 66" prop (the original factory recommendation). Then I added a 1/4" spacer at the rear to change the angle of the thrust line to the wing. I have about 1 1/2" of clearance from prop tip to boom. Seems to work for me. I'll send you pics if you'd like. 



Rick Girard



On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 11:29 AM,  <HGRAFF(at)aol.com (HGRAFF(at)aol.com)> wrote:

[quote]      Rick,  I'm running with a 2 cycle, forced air cooled, 65 HP, dual  magneto type ignition,  Hirth engine, that so far with 12 hours on  it (because of run-in time etc),  is purring (screaming?) away without  a hitch. Lubrication is with the recommended 100:1 mix with Blue Max oil. Had to  upgrade the Battery from 160 to 310 CCA so the starter would always go through  the compression. Now cranking speed may be enough to taxi with.  Yeah, I  would rather fly with the older four-stroke Revmaster VW, that was  first mounted, but which badly put the A/C out of CG. (Yes, I know about the VW  powered Kolbs) Too bad, the sound of the Revmaster at idle very much  matched a P51 taxiing by. I have a video with that marvelous sound and could  upload it, if I find out how to do that.

  

 Herb Graff

 Mark III 246KTdo 

  

  In a message dated 11/9/2009 6:51:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com) writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Herb,    What engine are you running?    



   Rick Girard

   do not archive

	




   	  Quote: 	
		  



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Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:21 pm Post subject: Re: Trim System Question

[quote="rickofudall"]Herb, I have a Rotax 582. When I rebuilt the airplane I incorporate a mix of the 582 and 618 mounts to get the thrust line down as low as I could get it while running a 66" prop (the original factory recommendation). Then I added a 1/4" spacer at the rear to change the angle of the thrust line to the wing. I have about 1 1/2" of clearance from prop tip to boom. Seems to work for me. I'll send you pics if you'd like. 



Rick Girard



Rick, I am also using a 582 but with the stock thrust line. So you have raised the aft end 1/4" and the changes you have noticed are...? Details please? And the 582 and the 618 mounts differ how?

Thanks,



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

capedavis(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:58 pm Post subject: Trim System Question

Herb ,I had the Rans elevator trim on my KXP and it would fly straight and level for several minuets but the bank trim  would have to be controlled by my Knees the Kolbs are unstable  and need to be flown all the time but the pitch can be trimmed I was using the elevator trim to take pictures and it worked well.Just my 2cents . 

Chris Davis

KXP 503 492 hrs

Glider Pilot

Disabled from crash building Firefly  



 

   From: "HGRAFF(at)aol.com" <HGRAFF(at)aol.com>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Mon, November 9, 2009 1:43:23 AM

Subject: Trim System Question



  

 With about 3 hours of initial test flying completed on a plans built Kolb Mark III, trim seems to be OK, at least in 2 axes. When I let go of the control stick, the kolb flies nice and level and the long yarn from the front mounted antenna flies perfectly straight. I can let go for about a good 3 seconds. This was achieved with both Aileron and Rudder trim tabs.

  

 Except there is a slight pitch control problem. With pitch settings all the way to the front, (at which point some slack just started in the spring system), the nose wants to go pitch down.. When set to the first notch, now the nose wants to pitch up. I seem to need some setting in between.

  

 I'm thinking the simplest fix, is to replace the two hefty springs with slightly weaker ones, as well make them a smitchen longer to get more into the center of the operating settings.

  

 So my question:  Is there anything wrong with this approach, or are there better (simpler?) ways to achieve the desired result. 

  

 I will appreciate your comments.

  

 Herb Graff

 Kolb Mark III 246KT

  

  

  

  

 	  Quote: 	
		  www.build    	




         [quote][b]

zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:14 pm Post subject: Trim System Question

Herb,

 Pitch trim sensitivity really should not be a problem.As you burn off fuel or when you add a passenger,the trim requirements will change.It also changes with power settings due to the high thrust line.Under certain conditions you may even add 1 notch of flap to bring the nose down as I have done when heavy with fuel and light with passengers.Some times just releasing the flap handle from it's fully retracted notch and letting it float has a trimming effect.The effort required to maintain level flight with stick pressure is very light. 

      You can make those changes to the spring system or even a trim tab on the elevator,but I would wait until you can carry a passenger or put a sand bag in the right seat and see how it affects the trim before making any mods to the system.

  G.Aman MK-3 C Jabiru 2200A 490hrs

 

   

 

   

 

 --

zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:16 pm Post subject: Trim System Question

Rick,

  4 weeks and counting till departure.How did the van handle the trip with the trailer?

   G.Aman

 

   

 

   

 

 --

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:07 pm Post subject: Trim System Question

Sorry, I guessed I missed that part about the difference. It seems to take a lot of the pitch change with throttle out of it. The big difference I remember without getting the plans out is the the vibration dampers are mounted with the deep side up on the 618 mount and the short side is up with the 582.  Okay, I got the plans out and checked. Originally my plane had a version of the mount that was a bastardized version of the 618 mount, short side of the isolator up, a 2" spacer tube and shim plates. Now it just has the isolators long side up and no tubes. The overall effect was to lower the engine about 2", although it is still about 1" higher than the plans call out for the 582. 

 I seem to remember it was John H. who mentioned changing the thrust line by putting shims between the engine plate and the aft isolators, but my memory could be playing tricks there, too.

Rick

 

On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 3:21 PM, Richard Pike <richard(at)bcchapel.org (richard(at)bcchapel.org)> wrote:

[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org (richard(at)bcchapel.org)>

 

 [quote="rickofudall"]Herb, I have a Rotax 582. When I rebuilt the airplane I incorporate a mix of the 582 and 618 mounts to get the thrust line down as low as I could get it while running a 66" prop (the original factory recommendation). Then I added a 1/4" spacer at the rear to change the angle of the thrust line to the wing. I have about 1 1/2" of clearance from prop tip to boom. Seems to work for me. I'll send you pics if you'd like.

  

 Rick Girard

 

 Rick, I am also using a 582 but with the stock thrust line. So you have raised the aft end 1/4" and the changes you have noticed are...? Details please? And the 582 and the 618 mounts differ how?

 Thanks,

 

 Richard Pike

 MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 

 

 

 

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Herb Graff

Joined: 21 Sep 2009
Posts: 12

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:22 pm Post subject: Trim System Question

Yes Rick,

  

 I'd surely would like to see your engine setup. Please send direct to my  Email. Our Kolb, (a small club project, though I'm the only one flying it  so far), uses a 3/8 interposer plate to translate the hole patterns, for an  otherwise standard engine mount. This plate also has heat bent tabs to mount the  muffler to. It took two MAP Gas torches to apply enough heat for the bending  operation. A not very good picture of our engine arrangement is here:

  

  

  

 If I get a chance I'll take a better close-up of the mount, though there is  really nothing extraordinary about it.

  

 Herb Graff

 Kolb Mark III 246KT

  

  

  In a message dated 11/9/2009 1:05:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Herb, I    have a Rotax 582. When I rebuilt the airplane I incorporate a mix of the 582    and 618 mounts to get the thrust line down as low as I could get it while    running a 66" prop (the original factory recommendation). Then I added a 1/4"    spacer at the rear to change the angle of the thrust line to the wing. I have    about 1 1/2" of clearance from prop tip to boom. Seems to work for me. I'll    send you pics if you'd like.    



   Rick Girard

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Herb Graff

Joined: 21 Sep 2009
Posts: 12

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:54 pm Post subject: Trim System Question

Chris,

  

 Thanks for your input on the trim. Hey, several minutes with hands free is  the very most one can expect. I can just see myself with a bunchie cord around  the stick and my right knee, my arms crossed and a silly smile on my  face. That Rans elevator trim is intriguing. Have you pictures of you  installation or basic  references to it. The Kolb is back under roof  for the winter and there could be time for an appropriate mod.

  

 Herb Graff

 Kolb Mark III 246KT

  

  In a message dated 11/9/2009 7:58:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  capedavis(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Herb ,I had the Rans elevator trim on my KXP and it would fly straight    and level for several minuets but the bank trim  would have to be    controlled by my Knees the Kolbs are unstable  and need to be flown all    the time but the pitch can be trimmed I was using the elevator trim to    take pictures and it worked well.Just my 2cents . 

Chris    Davis

KXP 503 492 hrs

Glider Pilot

Disabled from crash building    Firefly 	


  [quote][b]

capedavis(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:12 pm Post subject: Trim System Question

Herb , did not take any pics of my installation    but you can see the product athttp://www.shoprans.com/ElevatorTrim.asp I think the trim tab was 24 inches and I cut it down to 12 inches the trim wheel was just like the "old cessna" trim wheel I mounted the wheel just ahead of the throttle it was an easy and quick job and worked well for me for a few years untill I sold the KXP. probably still is

Chris Davis

KXP 503 492 hrs

Glider Pilot

Disabled from crash building Firefly  



 

   From: "HGRAFF(at)aol.com" <HGRAFF(at)aol.com>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Mon, November 9, 2009 9:40:14 PM

Subject: Re: Trim System Question



 Chris,

  

 Thanks for your input on the trim. Hey, several minutes with hands free is the very most one can expect. I can just see myself with a bunchie cord around the stick and my right knee, my arms crossed and a silly smile on my face. That Rans elevator trim is intriguing. Have you pictures of you installation or basic  references to it. The Kolb is back under roof for the winter and there could be time for an appropriate mod.

  

 Herb Graff

 Kolb Mark III 246KT

  

  In a message dated 11/9/2009 7:58:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, capedavis(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		   Herb ,I had the Rans elevator trim on my KXP and it would fly straight and level for several minuets but the bank trim  would have to be controlled by my Knees the Kolbs are unstable  and need to be flown all the time but the pitch can be trimmed I was using the elevator trim to take pictures and it worked well.Just my 2cents . 

Chris Davis

KXP 503 492 hrs

Glider Pilot

Disabled from crash building Firefly 	


 	  Quote: 	
		  www.awww.buildersbooks.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.co===    	




           [quote][b]

aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:18 am Post subject: Trim System Question

I have changed the thrust line on my MK111c several  times. I have lifted the front of the engine up and then put it back and lifted  the back up,I have not moved it more than a third { 8 mm } of a inch  at either end at any time.The changes have made very little difference. The  engine is pitched  forward a little now as that gives me more clearance at  the back of the pod and boom for the propeller .  The intention was to  reduce noise .The only difference I can fell with this set up is that if you  reduce power slowly the nose of the kolb will lift slightly before dropping .   Its made so little difference that I have not bothered to change it for  the last 200hrs of flying .

  

 Downunder

 MK111c

  

 [quote]   ---

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:23 am Post subject: Trim System Question

Herb  

   

If there is a way that you can move the trim spring closer to the pivot point on the elevator control,,,   (less mechanical advantage)  then it would require more movement on the trim control to achieve the desired results.   This would give you more set points for trim, and less change between settings.  

   

Boyd Young  

Kolb MkIII  

   

       [quote][b]

russkinne(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:23 am Post subject: Trim System Question

I do not have a Kolb yet but am  a photographer, and need to have hands-free flying for more than couple seconds. Now with good elevator trim and the stick clamped between my legs, how long do you think I can take my hands off the controls?I admit I'm spoiled; had a much-modified 170 for years, and once flew for a full 30 minutes without touching the wheel!  Calm  air, just before dawn, I had some dihedral, and all worked beautifully. Just kept on course with the rudder. Plane very slowly climbed as fuel burned off.

Russ K

do not archive



On Nov 9, 2009, at 11:11 PM, chris davis wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Herb , did not take any pics of my installation    but you can see the product athttp://www.shoprans.com/ElevatorTrim.asp I think the trim tab was 24 inches and I cut it down to 12 inches the trim wheel was just like the "old cessna" trim wheel I mounted the wheel just ahead of the throttle it was an easy and quick job and worked well for me for a few years untill I sold the KXP. probably still is

Chris Davis

KXP 503 492 hrs

Glider Pilot

Disabled from crash building Firefly

From: "HGRAFF(at)aol.com (HGRAFF(at)aol.com)" <HGRAFF(at)aol.com (HGRAFF(at)aol.com)>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)

Sent: Mon, November 9, 2009 9:40:14 PM

Subject: Re: Trim System Question



Chris,

 

Thanks for your input on the trim. Hey, several minutes with hands free is the very most one can expect. I can just see myself with a bunchie cord around the stick and my right knee, my arms crossed and a silly smile on my face. That Rans elevator trim is intriguing. Have you pictures of you installation or basic  references to it. The Kolb is back under roof for the winter and there could be time for an appropriate mod.

 

Herb Graff

Kolb Mark III 246KT

 

In a message dated 11/9/2009 7:58:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, capedavis(at)yahoo.com (capedavis(at)yahoo.com) writes:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Herb ,I had the Rans elevator trim on my KXP and it would fly straight and level for several minuets but the bank trim  would have to be controlled by my Knees the Kolbs are unstable  and need to be flown all the time but the pitch can be trimmed I was using the elevator trim to take pictures and it worked well.Just my 2cents . 

Chris Davis

KXP 503 492 hrs

Glider Pilot

Disabled from crash building Firefly 	


 	  Quote: 	
		  www.awww.buildersbooks.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.co===    



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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:10 am Post subject: Trim System Question

The intention was to reduce noise  >>

  

 Hi there,

  

 Did it?  The farmer who owns the field I fly  from is constantly wickering on about the noise from the Kolb. He says it is  worse that the Challenger I used to have and that got him pretty hot under the  collar.

  

 Noise seems to be built in with a pusher  configuration. Not noise in the cockpit, that can be dealt with by decent  headphones , but the noise which causes complaints from the  neighbours.

  

 i cocked up a landing the other day and decided on  another circuit for practice. I am reluctant to climb out at less than full  throttle so went out at full chat and the farmer was waiting for me when i  landed, looking down his nose. Of course he flies a Cub which makes no more  noise than a sewing machine.

  

 Does a larger a gap between the trailing edge and  the prop help?

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:28 am Post subject: Trim System Question

At 10:23 AM 11/10/2009, russ kinne wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I do not have a Kolb yet but am  a photographer, and need to have hands-free flying for more than couple seconds. Now with good elevator trim and the stick clamped between my legs, how long do you think I can take my hands off the controls? 	


 My UltraStar is reasonably pitch stable, though all I have to do is reach forward to adjust the radio and it pitches down, and vice versa.   Pitch stability is mainly a matter of sufficiently forward C.G.  It's in roll that it's not stable at all, unsurprising because of lack of dihedral.



 -Dana

 --

  If it were truly the thought that counted, more women would be pregnant.    [quote][b]

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:04 pm Post subject: Trim System Question

Pat, you should record both the sound from his cub and your kolb and listen to them.It may be more a matter of frequency than decibel level.

BB

do not archive



On 10, Nov 2009, at 12:10 PM, pj.ladd wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   The intention was to reduce noise >>

 

Hi there,

 

Did it?  The farmer who owns the field I fly from is constantly wickering on about the noise from the Kolb. He says it is worse that the Challenger I used to have and that got him pretty hot under the collar.

 

Noise seems to be built in with a pusher configuration. Not noise in the cockpit, that can be dealt with by decent headphones , but the noise which causes complaints from the neighbours.

 

i cocked up a landing the other day and decided on another circuit for practice. I am reluctant to climb out at less than full throttle so went out at full chat and the farmer was waiting for me when i landed, looking down his nose. Of course he flies a Cub which makes no more noise than a sewing machine.

 

Does a larger a gap between the trailing edge and the prop help?

 

Pat

 	  Quote: 	
		  



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 [quote][b]

aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:10 pm Post subject: Trim System Question

Hard to tell when you are inside. those on the  ground have never said it made less noise , but that the noise had changed. it  lost that chop chop beat. {sounded less like a helicopter} As far as farmers go  its been sort of agreed that farm animals get used to the noise very quickly ,so  if the same aircraft fly's out of the same place even race horses soon learn to  ignore

 the sound ,its the visiting aircraft that cause  the  problems even if they are super quite super cubs.Take the cocky for a  ride , they seem to be more forgiving after that .The pusher sure does have a  beat all of its own.

  

 Downunder

 MK111c 

 [quote]   ---

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