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bakerocb
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA
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 Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:37 am Post subject: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace |
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1/22/2010
Hello Jon, You wrote:
1) "Oh brother.."
{Response} Hang in there for one more go around. This time we will restrict
the discussion to just charting of uncontrolled airspace and leave
transponders out of it since that subject seems to make some peoples' head
hurt.
2) ".............. one has to actually look at a sectional (NOT IFRchart) to
see where true "uncontrolled airspace" exists." and
"RE: #2. Look at the Class E section of this page:
http://www.flytandem.com/airspace.htm"
{Response} Just looking at a Sectional chart alone and the web site diagram
does not permit one to see where all true uncontrolled airspace exists. Here
is why:
A) The AIRPORT TRAFFIC AND AIRSPACE Legend portion of current Sectional
charts has this wording in it:
"Only the controlled and reserved airspace effective below 18,000 ft. MSL
are shown on this chart." This means that the location of lateral areas of
uncontrolled Class G airspace that go from the surface up to 14,500 feet can
not be determined by looking at a Sectional chart.
B) The AIR TRAFFIC SERVICES AND AIRSPACE INFORMATION on a current IFR
ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE chart has these wordings in it under AIRSPACE
INFORMATION:
"Open area (white) indicates controlled airspace (Class E); unless otherwise
indicated."
"All airspace 14,500' and above is controlled (Class E)"
"Shaded area (brown) indicates uncontrolled airspace below 14,500' (Class
G)"
So one needs both Sectional and IFR ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE charts to
completely determine where all uncontrolled Class G airspace is located.
The Sectional chart will tell one where the controlled Class E airspace
exists both laterally by an outline and vertically by either magenta or blue
shading, but won't tell one where the the lateral dimensions of uncontrolled
Class G airspace are.
The IFR ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE chart, by brown shading, will show one where
uncontrolled Class G airspace exists laterally from the surface up to
14,500.
Why don't you get an IFR ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE chart for some areas out west
where there is some brown shading, check it out, and let us know what you
find. Our IFR ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE charts back east are all white between
the navigation information.
Thanks.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
==================================================
From: "Jon Finley" <jon(at)finleyweb.net>
Subject: RE: Encoder Certification
Date: Jan 21, 2010
Oh brother..
Apparently this discussion has went around and around enough times that what
is being said no longer makes sense to anyone.
Next subject please!
Jon
========================================
Jon Finley wrote:
RE: #2. Look at the Class E section of this page:
http://www.flytandem.com/airspace.htm
Jon
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bakerocb
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:58 am Post subject: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace |
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1/23/2010
Hello Jon Finley, I am sorry that your January 22, 2010 2:11 PM posting
copied below has an emotional and rejecting tone to it. My postings in
response to yours have in no way intended to be punitive or critical of you
personally -- just educational for all involved. With that in mind please
let me respond in detail to your posting copied below.
You wrote:
1) "It is no wonder folks on the list are asking for this nonsense to stop."
{Response} Yes, I was persistent regarding transponder requirements. I did
this because some people were still posting using the wrong criteria and I
did not want to let that erroneous information stand uncorrected.
2) "As an aside, do you work for the government??"
{Response} My personal work for the U. S. government consisted of 36 years
on active duty in the US Navy and US Marine Corps as both enlisted and
officer fixing and flying airplanes and helicopters. I retired from that
work in 1986.
3) "WE ALL GET IT!"
{Response} Good, I hope that my postings had something to do with that.
4) "So, if only "controlled airspace" is shown then "uncontrolled airspace"
cannot be shown?? That makes no sense."
{Response} When the aviation chart makers were confronted with the problem
of showing the lateral dimensions of that uncontrolled Class G airspace
which goes from the surface all the way up to 14,500 feet MSL they realized
that putting such information on a Sectional chart would result in
unacceptable clutter. They came up with the solution of using brown shading
for those areas on the low altitude IFR charts to show that information.
5) "Using these generic terms ("controlled" and "uncontrolled" makes this
entire section worthless)."
{Response} These are the accepted terms. They make it possible to write
about those two different kinds of airspace without listing each individual
identification letter each time the writer wants to refer to a kind of
airspace.
6) "We agree that Class G airspace exists UNDER the floor of Class E
airspace. THIS IS DEPICTED ON A SECTIONAL. You do not need an IFR chart to
see this."
{Response} This is correct, but you do need a low altitude IFR chart to show
the lateral dimensions of the uncontrolled airspace shaded brown that goes
from the surface up to 14,500 feet MSL because that information is not
depicted on a Sectional chart. See the response to item 4 above. One cannot
get the total picture just by focusing on vertical dimensions and looking at
a Sectional chart.
7) "Why don't YOU do the research instead of asking me to do it? Better
still, do this research BEFORE responding."
{Response} I have already done so. I am suggesting that you look at the
actual charts involved, Albuquerque Sectional and the low altitude IFR chart
for that area, so that you can see the brown shading for yourself. I made
this suggestion because you did not appear to take my posted information as
valid.
 " I have given you the resource (Skyvector.com) to see any sectional and
IFR chart in the USA."
I did go to the Skyvector site as you suggested -- thank you. I Iooked at
the sample charts that they would let me look at for no cost -- those
samples, while not of the specific area of our interest, did confirm my
posted information. Since I fly from an airport in Virginia I could not
justify the expense of purchasing a current Albuquerque Sectional (my copy
is outdated) and appropriate current low altitude IFR chart just to look at
them myself when my goal was to have you look at them.
A fellow EAA Chapter member has offered to give me a complete set of current
low altitude IFR charts. When I get my hands on them I will let you know and
ask for your mailing address so that I can mail you the appropriate low
altitude IFR chart. I presume that you already have a current Albuquerque
Sectional since you fly out of Los Lunas (E98).
Please let me know if this plan is acceptable to you.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
=====================================================
---
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bakerocb
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:19 am Post subject: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace |
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1/24/2010
Hello Fellow Marine Old Bob, You wrote: "However, I do NOT see where
controlled and uncontrolled airspace is pertinent to the discussion."
Agreed -- airspace category identification on charts per se was not
pertinent to the original posting, but that identification became of
educational interest as postings went on. I don't think an audit trail of
the entire sequence of postings on how this subject got all wrapped around
the axle is desired by all readers -- so here is a condensed audit trail
version:
A) It all began with a posting by Steve Thomas (Msg # 48119 on Jan 16,
2010), using the subject "Encoder Certification" who wanted to know if he
could fly away from his home base with his newly certified experimental
amateur built airplane without an operating and certified transponder in
order to have the appropriate transponder checks done at another location.
B) Both you and I responded to his request (maybe some others as well)
telling him how this was possible. Neither of us used the term "controlled
airspace".
C) Then on Jan 18, 2010 in #48141 Jon Finley wrote: "Everything noted so
far in this thread assumes controlled airspace." and leaving the impression
that controlled airspace alone could possibly be the determining factor in
whether or not an aircraft was required to be equipped with an operable
coded transponder.
D) You and I both responded in a supportive, but clarification manner to
Jon. Then followed a series of transponder oriented postings by many that
morphed into a discussion of controlled versus uncontrolled airspace
transponder requirements that further morphed into a discussion of how
controlled and uncontrolled airspace was depicted on our aviation charts.
E) In that discourse on Jan20, 2010 in Msg #48158 Jon wrote: "......one has
to actually look at a sectional (NOT IFR chart) to see where true
"uncontrolled airspace" exists."
F) I then attempted to clarify that chart related statement by changing the
subject line to "Charting Uncontrolled Airspace" and pointing out the
existence of the brown shaded uncontrolled airspace locations on the low
altitude IFR charts which could not be determined by looking at a Sectional
chart alone. Jon took exception to my clarification and we were launched off
on an ongoing posting wrangle on that charting point using the new subject
line .
So you can see how we got from encoder certification into airspace
depictions on charts. Maybe a bit messy sequence of events, and maybe not
all directly related to this aeroelectric list venue, but still of some
interest to those of us who fly in this country. I am mindful of the many
readers of this list who may absorb what is written here without a
challenging or questioning attitude and I am reluctant to let stand
potentially misleading information.
Semper Fidelis,
'OC'
=======================================================
Time: 09:55:51 AM PST US
From: bobsv35b(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace
Good Morning OC,
I, for one admire your tenacity and am glad you are helping to educate the
rest of us. However, I do NOT see where controlled and uncontrolled
airspace is pertinent to the discussion. As I understood the question, he
wanted
to know where a transponder was required. A transponder is NOT required for
VFR flight in the vast majority of controlled airspace.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Downers Grove. IL
Stearman N3977A
Never an officer, just a Corporal, USMC.
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