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ronrvbuilder(at)bigpond.c
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 Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:37 am Post subject: Adjusting fuel flow to cylinders |
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G’day all,
Since first flight, I have noticed that my #2 cylinder is consistently hotter than the rest in all modes of flight except cruise lean of peak. At peak, and lean of peak, #2 is consistently cooler than the rest. I concluded that the fuel flow rate to cylinder 2 was less the rest for some reason. At the suggestion of one of our listers, I popped the top cowl and ran the ‘coke bottle test’. This confirmed that fuel delivery to cylinder 2 was indeed about 80% of that to the other cylinders.
So, what to do? I removed the fuel line, cleaned it and could not find any obvious obstruction. Since the flow test confirmed the flow out of the line was less than the others, I can only conclude that there is a problem with the spider. Are there any adjustments that can be made? Sorry if this is a really lame question, but engines are still a black art to me.
Cheers,
Ron
VH-XRM, flying in Oz
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:39 am Post subject: Adjusting fuel flow to cylinders |
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Was your test with the injector or without it? If with, swap that
injector with your richest cylinder. If without, I'm not sure how
relevant it is without the back pressure of the injector. I'm not
aware of any adjustments in the spider. I suppose it could have a bit
of dirt/debris inside it. Ordinarily all 4 injectors see the same
pressure, and it is the injector that determines actual flow. That is
why GAMI is able to adjust flow by providing accurate flow measured
injectors selected to match the airflow each cylinder sees.
The fuel servo controls the fuel pressure to the spider (flow divider)
which simply splits the flow into 6 lines, and has a low pressure
cutoff to stop flow when you go to idle cutoff. All 6 injectors should
see the same pressure, and the size of the orifice controls the flow
volume into the manifold.
I would soak that injector in Hoppe's #9 gun cleaner for about 30 min.
then blow out with compressed air. Do not leave the injector in the
solution too long as it can actually affect the metal over time. If
that doesn't change anything, try an injector swap. If the problem
moves with the injector, you know you need a new injector.
On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 1:33 AM, Ron McGann <ronrvbuilder(at)bigpond.com> wrote:
| Quote: | G’day all,
Since first flight, I have noticed that my #2 cylinder is consistently
hotter than the rest in all modes of flight except cruise lean of peak. fuel delivery to cylinder 2
was indeed about 80% of that to the other cylinders.
So, what to do? I removed the fuel line, cleaned it and could not find any
obvious obstruction. Since the flow test confirmed the flow out of the line
was less than the others, I can only conclude that there is a problem with
the spider. Are there any adjustments that can be made? Sorry if this is a
really lame question, but engines are still a black art to me.
Cheers,
Ron
VH-XRM, flying in Oz
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Jim Combs
Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 141
Location: Lexington, Ky
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:05 am Post subject: Adjusting fuel flow to cylinders |
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Ron,
Airflow Performance has injectors with inserts. Various inserts have different diameters and will adjust fuel flow. They have a procedure for checking and adjusting the fuel flows for balance. You should check them out.
There is no adjustment in the spider.
Jim Combs (N312F)
On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 3:33 AM, Ron McGann <ronrvbuilder(at)bigpond.com (ronrvbuilder(at)bigpond.com)> wrote:
[quote]
G’day all,
Since first flight, I have noticed that my #2 cylinder is consistently hotter than the rest in all modes of flight except cruise lean of peak. At peak, and lean of peak, #2 is consistently cooler than the rest. I concluded that the fuel flow rate to cylinder 2 was less the rest for some reason. At the suggestion of one of our listers, I popped the top cowl and ran the ‘coke bottle test’. This confirmed that fuel delivery to cylinder 2 was indeed about 80% of that to the other cylinders.
So, what to do? I removed the fuel line, cleaned it and could not find any obvious obstruction. Since the flow test confirmed the flow out of the line was less than the others, I can only conclude that there is a problem with the spider. Are there any adjustments that can be made? Sorry if this is a really lame question, but engines are still a black art to me.
Cheers,
Ron
VH-XRM, flying in Oz
| Quote: |
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 7:00 am Post subject: Adjusting fuel flow to cylinders |
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I'm not positive, but I think they're only for experimental aircraft.
The really neat thing about AF injectors is that they change an insert
instead of the whole injector body ..... making it much easier to change
the injector orifice on a hot engine.
Linn
Jim Combs wrote:
| Quote: | Ron,
Airflow Performance has injectors with inserts. Various inserts have
different diameters and will adjust fuel flow. They have a procedure
for checking and adjusting the fuel flows for balance. You should check
them out.
There is no adjustment in the spider.
Jim Combs (N312F)
On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 3:33 AM, Ron McGann <ronrvbuilder(at)bigpond.com
<mailto:ronrvbuilder(at)bigpond.com>> wrote:
G’day all,
Since first flight, I have noticed that my #2 cylinder is
consistently hotter than the rest in all modes of flight except
cruise lean of peak. At peak, and lean of peak, #2 is consistently
cooler than the rest. I concluded that the fuel flow rate to
cylinder 2 was less the rest for some reason. At the suggestion of
one of our listers, I popped the top cowl and ran the ‘coke bottle
test’. This confirmed that fuel delivery to cylinder 2 was indeed
about 80% of that to the other cylinders.
So, what to do? I removed the fuel line, cleaned it and could not
find any obvious obstruction. Since the flow test confirmed the
flow out of the line was less than the others, I can only conclude
that there is a problem with the spider. Are there any adjustments
that can be made? Sorry if this is a really lame question, but
engines are still a black art to me.
Cheers,
Ron
VH-XRM, flying in Oz
*
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
*
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*
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 7:17 am Post subject: Adjusting fuel flow to cylinders |
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Sorry guys ... thought this was on another list about injectors!!!
Linn
do not archive!
Linn Walters wrote:
| Quote: |
I'm not positive, but I think they're only for experimental aircraft.
The really neat thing about AF injectors is that they change an insert
instead of the whole injector body ..... making it much easier to change
the injector orifice on a hot engine.
Linn
Jim Combs wrote:
> Ron,
>
> Airflow Performance has injectors with inserts. Various inserts have
> different diameters and will adjust fuel flow. They have a procedure
> for checking and adjusting the fuel flows for balance. You should
> check them out.
>
> There is no adjustment in the spider.
>
> Jim Combs (N312F)
>
> On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 3:33 AM, Ron McGann <ronrvbuilder(at)bigpond.com
> <mailto:ronrvbuilder(at)bigpond.com>> wrote:
>
> G’day all,
>
>
> Since first flight, I have noticed that my #2 cylinder is
> consistently hotter than the rest in all modes of flight except
> cruise lean of peak. At peak, and lean of peak, #2 is consistently
> cooler than the rest. I concluded that the fuel flow rate to
> cylinder 2 was less the rest for some reason. At the suggestion of
> one of our listers, I popped the top cowl and ran the ‘coke bottle
> test’. This confirmed that fuel delivery to cylinder 2 was indeed
> about 80% of that to the other cylinders.
>
> So, what to do? I removed the fuel line, cleaned it and could not
> find any obvious obstruction. Since the flow test confirmed the
> flow out of the line was less than the others, I can only conclude
> that there is a problem with the spider. Are there any adjustments
> that can be made? Sorry if this is a really lame question, but
> engines are still a black art to me.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Ron
>
> VH-XRM, flying in Oz
> *
>
> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> *
> *
> *
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 7:38 am Post subject: Adjusting fuel flow to cylinders |
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I believe you are correct re experimental only. I darn sure would NOT
want to be messing with injector lines and liquid avgas on top of a
hot engine, without a nomex suit and a couple fire guards standing by.
On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 7:55 AM, Linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
I'm not positive, but I think they're only for experimental aircraft. The
really neat thing about AF injectors is that they change an insert instead
of the whole injector body ..... making it much easier to change the
injector orifice on a hot engine.
Linn
Jim Combs wrote:
>
> Ron,
>
> Airflow Performance has injectors with inserts. Various inserts have
> different diameters and will adjust fuel flow. They have a procedure for
> checking and adjusting the fuel flows for balance. You should check them
> out.
>
> There is no adjustment in the spider.
>
> Jim Combs (N312F)
>
> On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 3:33 AM, Ron McGann <ronrvbuilder(at)bigpond.com
> <mailto:ronrvbuilder(at)bigpond.com>> wrote:
>
> G’day all,
> Since first flight, I have noticed that my #2 cylinder is
> consistently hotter than the rest in all modes of flight except
> cruise lean of peak. At peak, and lean of peak, #2 is consistently
> cooler than the rest. I concluded that the fuel flow rate to
> cylinder 2 was less the rest for some reason. At the suggestion of
> one of our listers, I popped the top cowl and ran the ‘coke bottle
> test’. This confirmed that fuel delivery to cylinder 2 was indeed
> about 80% of that to the other cylinders.
>
> So, what to do? I removed the fuel line, cleaned it and could not
> find any obvious obstruction. Since the flow test confirmed the
> flow out of the line was less than the others, I can only conclude
> that there is a problem with the spider. Are there any adjustments
> that can be made? Sorry if this is a really lame question, but
> engines are still a black art to me.
> Cheers,
>
> Ron
>
> VH-XRM, flying in Oz
> *
>
> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> *
> *
> *
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Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD |
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partner14
Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Posts: 540
Location: Granbury Texas
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:55 am Post subject: Adjusting fuel flow to cylinders |
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I'm kind of surprised nobody asked.... but when you said the #2 cyl is hotter,,,, are you talking egt or cht? If it's cht, maybe cut down the Van's airdam in front of the #2 cyl a little,,, talking egt, order a .0285 injector nozzle from Airflow Perf.
Have you done the LOP test which determines the fuel flow rate (gph) that each cyl reaches LOP. Maybe one or more of the other cyl are way rich, which is why they would be running cooler.
My .02 cents
Don McDonald
--- On Sun, 2/7/10, Jim Combs <jiminlexky(at)gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: Jim Combs <jiminlexky(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Adjusting fuel flow to cylinders
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Sunday, February 7, 2010, 6:02 AM
Ron,
Airflow Performance has injectors with inserts. Various inserts have different diameters and will adjust fuel flow. They have a procedure for checking and adjusting the fuel flows for balance. You should check them out.
There is no adjustment in the spider.
Jim Combs (N312F)
On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 3:33 AM, Ron McGann <ronrvbuilder(at)bigpond.com (ronrvbuilder(at)bigpond.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
G’day all,
Since first flight, I have noticed that my #2 cylinder is consistently hotter than the rest in all modes of flight except cruise lean of peak. At peak, and lean of peak, #2 is consistently cooler than the rest. I concluded that the fuel flow rate to cylinder 2 was less the rest for some reason. At the suggestion of one of our listers, I popped the top cowl and ran the ‘coke bottle test’. This confirmed that fuel delivery to cylinder 2 was indeed about 80% of that to the other cylinders.
So, what to do? I removed the fuel line, cleaned it and could not find any obvious obstruction. Since the flow test confirmed the flow out of the line was less than the others, I can only conclude that there is a problem with the spider. Are there any adjustments that can be made? Sorry if this is a really lame question, but engines are still a black art to me.
Cheers,
Ron
VH-XRM, flying in Oz
| Quote: |
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
get=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
=nofollow>http://forums.matronics.com
blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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[quote][b]
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2882
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:56 am Post subject: Adjusting fuel flow to cylinders |
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Precision/bendix is the same thing, so this isn't unique to AFP.
Tim
On Feb 7, 2010, at 8:55 AM, Linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net>
wrote:
| Quote: |
>
I'm not positive, but I think they're only for experimental
aircraft. The really neat thing about AF injectors is that they
change an insert instead of the whole injector body ..... making it
much easier to change the injector orifice on a hot engine.
Linn
Jim Combs wrote:
> Ron,
> Airflow Performance has injectors with inserts. Various inserts
> have different diameters and will adjust fuel flow. They have a
> procedure for checking and adjusting the fuel flows for balance.
> You should check them out.
> There is no adjustment in the spider.
> Jim Combs (N312F)
> On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 3:33 AM, Ron McGann
> <ronrvbuilder(at)bigpond.com <mailto:ronrvbuilder(at)bigpond.com>> wrote:
> G’day all,
> Since first flight, I have noticed that my #2 cylinder is
> consistently hotter than the rest in all modes of flight except
> cruise lean of peak. At peak, and lean of peak, #2 is
> consistently
> cooler than the rest. I concluded that the fuel flow rate to
> cylinder 2 was less the rest for some reason. At the suggestion
> of
> one of our listers, I popped the top cowl and ran the ‘coke bot
> tle
> test’. This confirmed that fuel delivery to cylinder 2 was ind
> eed
> about 80% of that to the other cylinders. So, what to
> do? I removed the fuel line, cleaned it and could not
> find any obvious obstruction. Since the flow test confirmed the
> flow out of the line was less than the others, I can only conclude
> that there is a problem with the spider. Are there any
> adjustments
> that can be made? Sorry if this is a really lame question, but
> engines are still a black art to me.
> Cheers,
> Ron
> VH-XRM, flying in Oz *
> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> *
> *
> *
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2882
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:50 am Post subject: Adjusting fuel flow to cylinders |
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|
By this, BTW, I mean that the injectors are the same. They're
just injectors. You can buy AFP inserts for your Precision/Bendix
injectors. As far as I know, the AFP difference is in the
servo and spider.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
Tim Olson wrote:
| Quote: |
Precision/bendix is the same thing, so this isn't unique to AFP.
Tim
On Feb 7, 2010, at 8:55 AM, Linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>
> I'm not positive, but I think they're only for experimental aircraft.
> The really neat thing about AF injectors is that they change an insert
> instead of the whole injector body ..... making it much easier to
> change the injector orifice on a hot engine.
> Linn
>
> Jim Combs wrote:
>> Ron,
>> Airflow Performance has injectors with inserts. Various inserts have
>> different diameters and will adjust fuel flow. They have a procedure
>> for checking and adjusting the fuel flows for balance. You should
>> check them out.
>> There is no adjustment in the spider.
>> Jim Combs (N312F)
>> On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 3:33 AM, Ron McGann <ronrvbuilder(at)bigpond.com
>> <mailto:ronrvbuilder(at)bigpond.com>> wrote:
>> G’day all,
>> Since first flight, I have noticed that my #2 cylinder is
>> consistently hotter than the rest in all modes of flight except
>> cruise lean of peak. At peak, and lean of peak, #2 is consistently
>> cooler than the rest. I concluded that the fuel flow rate to
>> cylinder 2 was less the rest for some reason. At the suggestion of
>> one of our listers, I popped the top cowl and ran the ‘coke bottle
>> test’. This confirmed that fuel delivery to cylinder 2 was indeed
>> about 80% of that to the other cylinders. So, what to
>> do? I removed the fuel line, cleaned it and could not
>> find any obvious obstruction. Since the flow test confirmed the
>> flow out of the line was less than the others, I can only conclude
>> that there is a problem with the spider. Are there any adjustments
>> that can be made? Sorry if this is a really lame question, but
>> engines are still a black art to me.
>> Cheers,
>> Ron
>> VH-XRM, flying in Oz *
>> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> *
>> *
>> *
>
>
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robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:27 am Post subject: Adjusting fuel flow to cylinders |
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To all get on the same page terminology wise AFP calls the inserts
Restrictors. The Restrictors fit into the injectors so I have one size
Injector but currently running 4 different size Restrictors.
A LOP test (or two) should show where the cylinder is (rich or lean)
relative to the other cylinders.
Robin
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:36 pm Post subject: Adjusting fuel flow to cylinders |
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Not all Bendix injectors are two piece, so you couldn't put inserts in
the older one piece. And the inserts would not be legal in a certified
engine. But if AFP system should be no issue.
On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 10:47 AM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
By this, BTW, I mean that the injectors are the same. They're
just injectors. You can buy AFP inserts for your Precision/Bendix
injectors. As far as I know, the AFP difference is in the
servo and spider.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
Tim Olson wrote:
>
>
>
> Precision/bendix is the same thing, so this isn't unique to AFP.
> Tim
>
> On Feb 7, 2010, at 8:55 AM, Linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I'm not positive, but I think they're only for experimental aircraft. The
>> really neat thing about AF injectors is that they change an insert instead
>> of the whole injector body ..... making it much easier to change the
>> injector orifice on a hot engine.
>> Linn
>>
>> Jim Combs wrote:
>>>
>>> Ron,
>>> Airflow Performance has injectors with inserts. Various inserts have
>>> different diameters and will adjust fuel flow. They have a procedure for
>>> checking and adjusting the fuel flows for balance. You should check them
>>> out.
>>> There is no adjustment in the spider.
>>> Jim Combs (N312F)
>>> On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 3:33 AM, Ron McGann <ronrvbuilder(at)bigpond.com
>>> <mailto:ronrvbuilder(at)bigpond.com>> wrote:
>>> G’day all,
>>> Since first flight, I have noticed that my #2 cylinder is
>>> consistently hotter than the rest in all modes of flight except
>>> cruise lean of peak. At peak, and lean of peak, #2 is consistently
>>> cooler than the rest. I concluded that the fuel flow rate to
>>> cylinder 2 was less the rest for some reason. At the suggestion of
>>> one of our listers, I popped the top cowl and ran the ‘coke bottle
>>> test’. This confirmed that fuel delivery to cylinder 2 was indeed
>>> about 80% of that to the other cylinders. So, what to do? I
>>> removed the fuel line, cleaned it and could not
>>> find any obvious obstruction. Since the flow test confirmed the
>>> flow out of the line was less than the others, I can only conclude
>>> that there is a problem with the spider. Are there any adjustments
>>> that can be made? Sorry if this is a really lame question, but
>>> engines are still a black art to me.
>>> Cheers,
>>> Ron
>>> VH-XRM, flying in Oz *
>>> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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Ron.McGann(at)ausawd.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:58 pm Post subject: Adjusting fuel flow to cylinders |
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Thx guys - keep the responses coming. I should point out that I did the fuel flow test with the fuel lines disconnected from the injectors, so this is raw flow from the spider down the fuel line only. I don't see how adding inserts/restrictors is going to help my case.
Cheers,
Ron
--
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:49 pm Post subject: Adjusting fuel flow to cylinders |
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Unrestricted flow without injectors is NOT meaningful. There would be
way more flow than you would ever get through the injectors. You need
to redo the test with injectors after ensuring the offending injector
is truly clean. Then consult with AFS or GAMI as to revision needed.
On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 6:33 PM, McGann, Ron <Ron.McGann(at)ausawd.com> wrote:
[quote]
Thx guys - keep the responses coming. I should point out that I did the fuel flow test with the fuel lines disconnected from the injectors, so this is raw flow from the spider down the fuel line only. I don't see how adding inserts/restrictors is going to help my case.
Cheers,
Ron
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Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2882
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:07 pm Post subject: Adjusting fuel flow to cylinders |
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Sorry, I should have said the normal newer Precision stuff.
For many people it'll be a new rebuild with something like
an AFP or silverhawk system. Of course some people will
have older engines with the older Bendix systems too....so
that wouldn't apply I guess. And you're right...swapping
inserts isn't A.O.K. on certifieds...only us experimentals.
Chalk that up as just one more think that sets the category
apart. Man, I don't know if I could ever go back to certified
with the amazing number of benefits to experimental.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
Kelly McMullen wrote:
| Quote: |
Not all Bendix injectors are two piece, so you couldn't put inserts in
the older one piece. And the inserts would not be legal in a certified
engine. But if AFP system should be no issue.
On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 10:47 AM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com> wrote:
>
>
> By this, BTW, I mean that the injectors are the same. They're
> just injectors. You can buy AFP inserts for your Precision/Bendix
> injectors. As far as I know, the AFP difference is in the
> servo and spider.
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
> do not archive
> Tim Olson wrote:
>>
>>
>> Precision/bendix is the same thing, so this isn't unique to AFP.
>> Tim
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 7, 2010, at 8:55 AM, Linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not positive, but I think they're only for experimental aircraft. The
>>> really neat thing about AF injectors is that they change an insert instead
>>> of the whole injector body ..... making it much easier to change the
>>> injector orifice on a hot engine.
>>> Linn
>>>
>>> Jim Combs wrote:
>>>> Ron,
>>>> Airflow Performance has injectors with inserts. Various inserts have
>>>> different diameters and will adjust fuel flow. They have a procedure for
>>>> checking and adjusting the fuel flows for balance. You should check them
>>>> out.
>>>> There is no adjustment in the spider.
>>>> Jim Combs (N312F)
>>>> On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 3:33 AM, Ron McGann <ronrvbuilder(at)bigpond.com
>>>> <mailto:ronrvbuilder(at)bigpond.com>> wrote:
>>>> G’day all,
>>>> Since first flight, I have noticed that my #2 cylinder is
>>>> consistently hotter than the rest in all modes of flight except
>>>> cruise lean of peak. At peak, and lean of peak, #2 is consistently
>>>> cooler than the rest. I concluded that the fuel flow rate to
>>>> cylinder 2 was less the rest for some reason. At the suggestion of
>>>> one of our listers, I popped the top cowl and ran the ‘coke bottle
>>>> test’. This confirmed that fuel delivery to cylinder 2 was indeed
>>>> about 80% of that to the other cylinders. So, what to do? I
>>>> removed the fuel line, cleaned it and could not
>>>> find any obvious obstruction. Since the flow test confirmed the
>>>> flow out of the line was less than the others, I can only conclude
>>>> that there is a problem with the spider. Are there any adjustments
>>>> that can be made? Sorry if this is a really lame question, but
>>>> engines are still a black art to me.
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Ron
>>>> VH-XRM, flying in Oz *
>>>> get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>>>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>> *
>>>> *
>>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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ronrvbuilder(at)bigpond.c
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:56 am Post subject: Adjusting fuel flow to cylinders |
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Sorry for not being specific - as I said, I'm not an engine guru.
When I say 'hot' both CHT and EGT on #2 are higher when running ROP. On
takeoff in particular, #2 CHT redlines unless I drop the nose to increase
airspeed and airflow into the engine. I also trimmed the air dam in front
of #2 to half its original height with zero effect. The problem is not
unmanageable. I simply monitor the CHT and keep it within limits by
adjusting throttle, mixture and airspeed. But it is annoying when there is
so much difference between #2 and the rest (which are all pretty close
together).
I understand Kelly's point below. I will remove the #2 injector and
inspect/clean. I assume I can replace the existing restrictor with a larger
one.
Cheers,
Ron
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rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:19 am Post subject: Adjusting fuel flow to cylinders |
|
|
I know zilch about this at this point, but I would take the recommendation
of swapping the #2 injector with a different injector from the engine and
see if there is a difference. If you still see the same results send your
info to AFP or GAMI and let them figure this out, another option.. do you
have a new Lycoming from Vans? maybe a call to Lycoming or who ever makes
your spider ask if they have any ideas..
I was with a completed builder this weekend and I noticed he had no dam on
one side, he mentioned that he never modified the injectors as the removed
dam took care of his issue.. Not sure what the specific issue was but sounds
like a the symptoms you appear to have.. swap out injectors and find a local
builder A/P that might be able to help.
Best of success!
Pascal
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Ron McGann" <ronrvbuilder(at)bigpond.com>
Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 12:00 AM
To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: RE: Adjusting fuel flow to cylinders
[quote]
Sorry for not being specific - as I said, I'm not an engine guru.
When I say 'hot' both CHT and EGT on #2 are higher when running ROP. On
takeoff in particular, #2 CHT redlines unless I drop the nose to increase
airspeed and airflow into the engine. I also trimmed the air dam in front
of #2 to half its original height with zero effect. The problem is not
unmanageable. I simply monitor the CHT and keep it within limits by
adjusting throttle, mixture and airspeed. But it is annoying when there
is
so much difference between #2 and the rest (which are all pretty close
together).
I understand Kelly's point below. I will remove the #2 injector and
inspect/clean. I assume I can replace the existing restrictor with a
larger
one.
Cheers,
Ron
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2882
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:57 am Post subject: Adjusting fuel flow to cylinders |
|
|
A word or warning on the GAMI and AFP side of things....you will very
quickly make yourself a pest by bringing them your little issues
without hard data....taken to their specs. These companies are
justifyably NOT in the "free engine tech support" business. AFP will
be happy to help you swap inserts if you collect proper data, and if
you're a customer, they'd probably answer a couple quick
questions....probably same with GAMI however it's much less likely
that a lycoming RV10 owner will have much to offer them in the area of
becoming a paying customer. Just dropping a problem on these
companies will quickly make you a pest because their business isn't
fixing your engine problems other than helping you either fix issues
with THEIR products, or pick proper injector inserts.
So your proper first contact is probably your engine builder....or if
you just bought some used engine on eBay, then maybe a forum list.
Also, even though we're experimental, A&P's aren't obsolete....I've
paid my old A&P to assist me in fixing things too. Throw them a little
business and you can turn your local A&P from being irritated with you
because you don't bring him annual business, to happy because you're
willing to pay him for some help.
Just pointing out that these vendor/A&P relationships are important to
manage right so you don't turn them off from helping you. Don't just
drop problems on their plate....you'll just tick them off.
Tim
On Feb 8, 2010, at 9:15 AM, "Pascal" <rv10builder(at)verizon.net> wrote:
[quote]
I know zilch about this at this point, but I would take the
recommendation of swapping the #2 injector with a different injector
from the engine and see if there is a difference. If you still see
the same results send your info to AFP or GAMI and let them figure
this out, another option.. do you have a new Lycoming from Vans?
maybe a call to Lycoming or who ever makes your spider ask if they
have any ideas..
I was with a completed builder this weekend and I noticed he had no
dam on one side, he mentioned that he never modified the injectors
as the removed dam took care of his issue.. Not sure what the
specific issue was but sounds like a the symptoms you appear to
have.. swap out injectors and find a local builder A/P that might be
able to help.
Best of success!
Pascal
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Ron McGann" <ronrvbuilder(at)bigpond.com>
Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 12:00 AM
To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: RE: Adjusting fuel flow to cylinders
>
> >
>
> Sorry for not being specific - as I said, I'm not an engine guru.
>
> When I say 'hot' both CHT and EGT on #2 are higher when running
> ROP. On
> takeoff in particular, #2 CHT redlines unless I drop the nose to
> increase
> airspeed and airflow into the engine. I also trimmed the air dam
> in front
> of #2 to half its original height with zero effect. The problem is
> not
> unmanageable. I simply monitor the CHT and keep it within limits by
> adjusting throttle, mixture and airspeed. But it is annoying when
> there is
> so much difference between #2 and the rest (which are all pretty
> close
> together).
>
> I understand Kelly's point below. I will remove the #2 injector and
> inspect/clean. I assume I can replace the existing restrictor with
> a larger
> one.
>
> Cheers,
> Ron
>
> --
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Jim Combs
Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 141
Location: Lexington, Ky
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:09 am Post subject: Adjusting fuel flow to cylinders |
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|
Sir Ron,
The injectors can regulate the flow even if the individual injector is getting a slightly different pressure from the flow divider. Thats the reason for the different sizes. Its not that one can control all the variables in the distribution system (Flow divider, fuel lines, etc). The injector becomes the one point where fuel can be controlled for each individual cylinder.
The baby jar test is only testing the fuel delivery system assuming no flow restriction at all due to the injectors. You are in effect measuring the flow resistance for full fuel flow (Not the normal operating mode of the fuel system). You really need to do the lean of peak test as described by AFP and then you can see what the injector change is needed to compensate. That is where you will be running the engine for the majority of its life (Assuming cruise at altitude is the "Norm").
The AFP injectors and the process they suggest is the way to go. (My opinion)
Jim Combs (N312F)
Do Not Archive
On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 8:33 PM, McGann, Ron <Ron.McGann(at)ausawd.com (Ron.McGann(at)ausawd.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "McGann, Ron" <Ron.McGann(at)ausawd.com (Ron.McGann(at)ausawd.com)>
Thx guys - keep the responses coming. I should point out that I did the fuel flow test with the fuel lines disconnected from the injectors, so this is raw flow from the spider down the fuel line only. I don't see how adding inserts/restrictors is going to help my case.
Cheers,
Ron
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RV-10 -> N312F - Flying as of 12/2008 |
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:34 am Post subject: Adjusting fuel flow to cylinders |
|
|
I'll second Tim's comments. Your local A/P may have a hard time
wrapping his head around an experimental category 'lack of standards'.
I know, we do have standards, but they're a whole lot different the
certifieds. I have an A/P IA that I use for my annuals on my certified
stuff ..... he's never done work on an experimental until recently.
I've given him guidance and education on more than one occasion, and he
greatly appreciated it. The Lancair that he was working on was a
nightmare, and if he'd taken his first direction, it would be cut up and
in the dump. He was really skeptical of the things we do when
constructing our experimentals, but he finally came around. Your local
A/P would appreciate the experience, I'm sure, and when you need his
help, he won't raid your bank account ..... as bad.
Linn
Tim Olson wrote:
| Quote: |
A word or warning on the GAMI and AFP side of things....you will very
quickly make yourself a pest by bringing them your little issues without
hard data....taken to their specs. These companies are justifyably NOT
in the "free engine tech support" business. AFP will be happy to help
you swap inserts if you collect proper data, and if you're a customer,
they'd probably answer a couple quick questions....probably same with
GAMI however it's much less likely that a lycoming RV10 owner will have
much to offer them in the area of becoming a paying customer. Just
dropping a problem on these companies will quickly make you a pest
because their business isn't fixing your engine problems other than
helping you either fix issues with THEIR products, or pick proper
injector inserts.
So your proper first contact is probably your engine builder....or if
you just bought some used engine on eBay, then maybe a forum list.
Also, even though we're experimental, A&P's aren't obsolete....I've paid
my old A&P to assist me in fixing things too. Throw them a little
business and you can turn your local A&P from being irritated with you
because you don't bring him annual business, to happy because you're
willing to pay him for some help.
Just pointing out that these vendor/A&P relationships are important to
manage right so you don't turn them off from helping you. Don't just
drop problems on their plate....you'll just tick them off.
Tim
|
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:59 am Post subject: Adjusting fuel flow to cylinders |
|
|
Curious how many other builders are graduates of AFP training? Training
is worth both the time, money and contact relationships built. (Looking
forward to the day that the Air Group flies to OZ so I can meet with
Ron.)
As Tim mentions the process is multi stepped. #1 correctly collect the
data points. #2 make the initial restrictor sizing changes. #3 Retest
for adjusted data.... as one is restricted, the others will change in
relation to the first. #4 Resize a second or third time. #5 Retest.
#6 They are in the business of making a profit... use their time wisely.
Tim, this is a great time to post on your site the procedure to
correctly collect the data points.
John Cox
graduate - "Class of November, 2009"
A&P with IA who will travel within reason within 100 miles of any
airport served by Alaska Air to assist in restrictor resizing of
Precision (Bendix) RSA5 or 10 and AFP Fuel delivery systems.
Do not Archive
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