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planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 6:31 pm Post subject: Dangerous or just scary

I noticed something in these pictures that "I" consider to be dangerous



 I don't know if it would pass an airworthiness inspection either....



 Quiz Time.....What do "YOU" see...



http://www.milows.com/FireStar/TailSection/TailSection.htm

 "I" think he should be warned about it....Just in case he doesn't go the



airworthiness route...

 Gotta Fly...

Mike in MN / N381PM

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 7:19 pm Post subject: Dangerous or just scary

I would like to see the nicopress sleeves doubled up. On every wire 

pictured. Nicos are cheap for the benefit that redundancy provides. 

Maybe the factories have enough quality control that they can get by 

with just one... we are amateurs, nicos are cheap, and redundancy is a 

good thing.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



planecrazzzy wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I noticed something in these pictures that "I" consider to be dangerous



  I don't know if it would pass an airworthiness inspection either....



  Quiz Time.....What do "YOU" see...



 http://www.milows.com/FireStar/TailSection/TailSection.htm

  "I" think he should be warned about it....Just in case he doesn't go the



 airworthiness route...

  Gotta Fly...

 Mike in MN / N381PM



 --------

 .

 .

 .

 .

 .Do not archive





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=30101#30101

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 10:05 pm Post subject: Dangerous or just scary

My guess is you're looking at those single nico press sleeves on the

horizontal stablizer landing wires as well as the control cables to the

rudder.

It's an OWT that two nicos are needed on a cable. I suppose it got its start

with DIck Eipper or one of his contemporaries who first started selling kit

hang gliders. I know it was in the plans for the Seagull III I built in '73

/ '74. At least Mike admitted that the second nico was only there to contain

the cable end so you wouldn't snag the sail or yourself. In actual fact the

cable should be left sticking out the end of the sleeve 1/4" and a single

sleeve, swaged per spec's and checked with the gauge that came with the

swaging tool is all that is required to make a cable termination that will

hold past the breaking point of the cable. Wills Wing always used a thick

heat shrink tube over the sleeve and raw cable end to protect sails and

fingers. It was clear enough that you could inspect the sleeve and check the

cable end for any slippage after that last wing over.

One sure way to make a wire termination that can fail before the breaking

point of the wire is to put a bubble, the two cables do not lie flat along

side each other between the nico sleeves, in the termination between the two

nicos. I've made a few bubbled cable terminations over the years, all it

takes is to put a slight twisting moment into bringing the handles together

while swaging. I cut up every one of them and made new cables. I would

advise anyone who asked to do the same.

On 4/22/06, planecrazzzy <planecrazzzy(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 



 I noticed something in these pictures that "I" consider to be dangerous



 I don't know if it would pass an airworthiness inspection either....



 Quiz Time.....What do "YOU" see...



 http://www.milows.com/FireStar/TailSection/TailSection.htm

 "I" think he should be warned about it....Just in case he doesn't go the



 airworthiness route...

 Gotta Fly...

 Mike in MN / N381PM



 --------

 .

 .

 .

 .

 .Do not archive





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3D30101#30101




	




--

Rick Girard

"Pining for a home on the Range"

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:33 pm Post subject: Re: Dangerous or just scary

BINGO,

            Everyone's a winner.....



 Also important is what you CAN"T see....I'll bet the elevator only has



one nicco sleeve on it....



You might get by without rudder....maybe you could get lucky enough



that the tail didn't "fold up"... ( doubt it )  But it could also fold "down"



 But the elevator cable would be BIG trouble



.....better have a GOOD trim "backup"



   It also makes me wonder about the "other" Milow...Both planes



were being built by the same people....I wonder if the Mark III is the



same way...?

Gotta Fly...

Mike in MN

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:30 am Post subject: Dangerous or just scary

I put two nicropress sleeves on all my cables for the same reasons Mr. Pike 

talks about but... Engineering data suggests that these joints a much 

stronger than the cables so if they are done right there is no problem. Some 

times us backyard engineers do things to our planes that we think makes them 

stronger but in fact crates a weakness where there was none. The single 

sleeve is normal aircraft practice.



I have seen Tim's work up close and it is shows some of the best 

craftsmanship I have ever seen. I for one would not think twice of flying 

anything he has worked on.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIc



---

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:53 am Post subject: Re: Dangerous or just scary

The Plans call for two nicco sleeves at each end....



If he feels safe with one , That's his choice... That's why they call it



Experimental I guess...



 The DAR that I had would NOT have accepted one nicco for the 



Airworthiness Cert....

Gotta Fly...

.

.

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 10:40 am Post subject: Re: Dangerous or just scary

According to 43-13 one, done correctly, is plenty strong. I'd rather have one done correctly than two done poorly.



Thom in Buffalo

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:14 pm Post subject: Dangerous or just scary

| I put two nicropress sleeves on all my cables for the same reasons 

Mr. Pike

| talks about but... Engineering data suggests that these joints a 

much

| stronger than the cables so if they are done right there is no 

problem. Some

| times us backyard engineers do things to our planes that we think 

makes them

| stronger but in fact crates a weakness where there was none. The 

single

| sleeve is normal aircraft practice.

 |

| Rick Neilsen



Hi Gang:



Here is a good publication a lot of us should stick our noses in.  It 

will answer a lot of questions "correctly".  It is Advisory Circular 

43.13-1B:



http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/99C827DB9BAAC81B86256B4500596C4E?OpenDocument&Highlight=acceptable%20methods



Here is a shortened version of the above url: 

http://urlsnip.com/512534



The entire circular is available at this site.



I normally use two nicropress sleeves for 3/32 and smaller cable. 

1/8" I use one, I think.  I used 1/8" cable for my up elevator cable, 

but it has been so long ago I forgot if I used two or one.  Based on 

how well I assemble my cables and hardware, I choose to use two 

sleeves.  Gives me that extra little bit of assureance that it will be 

there for the duration.



I agree with what Rick Neilsen and Richard Pike had to say about 

cables and hardware.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:42 pm Post subject: Dangerous or just scary

Well said. However...



Back in 1979 I built my first flying machine, a Quicksilver B, from 

plans. Fortunately, I had an assistant, one of the test pilots from the 

North American Rockwell factory located on Albany airport, (currently 

Ayers Corp) who was invaluable in knowing how Things Are Done, obtaining 

aircraft hardware (yes, I paid for it) and for checking us out a 

swedging tool for squeezing the nico sleeves.



It was a swedging tool checked out of the Certified Tool section of the 

Rockwell factory. Used for certified aircraft.



Since I had never done any swedging before, I thought it prudent to do a 

few practice attempts, cable was cheap, nicos were cheap, and getting it 

right seemed important. So I made a couple, and then made a short length 

with a loop with thimble & nico on each end. But how to test my attempt? 

For whatever reason, (don't remember why) there was a hook in the roof 

of my garage, so I hooked one thimble loop over the hook, and put a big 

screwdriver through the loop at the lower end. Decided that if I could 

chin myself on it by holding the screwdriver with both hands and pulling 

up, that would demonstrate that the 3/32 cable could at least hold 180 

pounds. ( I was skinnier back then...)



So I gave it a try. It had one nico per thimble. Swedged as per the 

book. Using the factory's certified tool...



When that sucker pulled out, with me pulling down on that screwdriver, 

supporting all my weight on it, it smashed it into the bridge of my 

nose, knocked me silly, hurt like the devil, (I remember that part best 

of all) and dumped me semi unconscious on my tush on the garage floor. 

Oh, the humanity...



I gave the squeezer tool back to my pal at the Rockwell factory, got a 

different one, and used two nicos per thimble loop from then on.



Feel free to use as many nicos as you want, and do it by the book all 

you wish, but I know how I will be doing it...



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



Thom Riddle wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 According to 43-13 one, done correctly, is plenty strong. I'd rather have one done correctly than two done poorly.



 Thom in Buffalo





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=30190#30190

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:34 am Post subject: Dangerous or just scary

| Feel free to use as many nicos as you want, and do it by the book 

all

| you wish, but I know how I will be doing it...

|

| Richard Pike

You didn't mention if you checked your single nico with a proper 

"go-no go gauge".



There is more than one way to screw up a good nico press sleeve 

connection.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 5:59 am Post subject: Dangerous or just scary

I didn't have one. This was during my "ignorant beginner" days. Building 

Quicksilver's from plans, and buying used Easy Risers from Glen Rinck. 

If you live long enough, you find ways to screw up more than nico 

connections. Amazing that any of us survived...



Anyway-

Had assumed that if the nico tool (large bolt cutter style) came from 

the aircraft factory, it must be good, right? (Ass - u - me... oh, yeah, 

right)

The Rockwell guy took it back to the factory to have it checked, and I 

don't remember what the outcome was. The squeeze connection that failed 

looked good, but that obviously was worth nothing.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

do not archive



John Hauck wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



  | Feel free to use as many nicos as you want, and do it by the book 

 all

 | you wish, but I know how I will be doing it...

 |

 | Richard Pike

 You didn't mention if you checked your single nico with a proper 

 "go-no go gauge".



 There is more than one way to screw up a good nico press sleeve 

 connection.



 john h

 mkIII

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

rp3420(at)freescale.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:05 am Post subject: Dangerous or just scary

Rick and gang,

Rick, thank you for the kind comments about our kolbs.  Just logged on

to my computer this morning to see this thread and thought I would share

my thoughts on swegded nicos.  



Double nico swedging practice came from the early ultralight craze

starting back in mid 70's.  These early pioneers would swedge a nico and

the cable end would snag and tear sails when setting up and breaking

down the ese early ultralights.  One soulution was to nico the very end

of the cable so no cable was protruding to do such sail damage.  Then

over the years the thought evolved as redundancy.  Go look at any

general aviation aircraft, they only have one swedged nico.  



Yes, we tested the swedges with a "go" and "no go" gauge.  And we also

tested the same way Richard did, but with 300 plus pounds.  Uncle Craig

even cut a swedged nico open to show me the effects of the nico swedge

squeeze.  It is amazing to see how the copper will inandate into the

finest twines of the cable.  One swedge, done correctly and to

specification is more than enough, the cable will break before the

swedge.  



Yes, I did only use one swedge on rudder- I loose rudder, the machine

still flies.  Yes, I did use two on my elevator- I loose elevator, well,

that is the only flight control that I must have.  Because of this

reason, and maybe for my own mental health, I doubled up on swedges.

Again, for my own mental thoughts- five little kids w/o father

thoughts.......



As we built on both of our Kolb projects we were litterly sometimes like

the Wright bros.  Fighting over exactly how things should be done,

engineered, or have been done.  With these synergestic moments we would

come up with a or test that none of us would have engineered or tested

alone. 

Uncle Craig and a very close friend who is an A&P and master craftsman,

and I mean "master craftsman"- we call him weird Larry.  When you see

uncle Craigs Xtra in person, ask me what weird Larry did on it and I

will show you, it puts my uncle and myselfs custome work to shame.  To

this day I still look at some of the details Larry did and wonder how he

did it.  Larry is constantly approached by airplane restoration groups

and museums to restore WWI, WWII, golden age and classic aircraft back

to flying  condition.  You give Larry a 4x4' sheet of 2024-T3 and he

will place any type of bend, joggle, curl, compound curve, twist, you

name it......it's mind boggling!

--

rp3420(at)freescale.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:08 am Post subject: Dangerous or just scary

OOOPS!  Accidentaly sent rough draft reply without spell check or going

over real well--Im sure you catch my drift.??? 



Tim Gherkins

--

vitalfx0(at)qwest.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:27 pm Post subject: Dangerous or just scary

Yes the other milow has only one nicco.  It is because of me milow has only one nicco on his plane. again if you look at  general aircraft there is not one example where I have seen two nicco's I have not seen two nicco's on any commercial aircraft and I have not seen two nicco's on any helicopters. if the press is calibrated one nicco is as strong as the cable and Old poops I don't know what you are using to swedge your nicco's to have a cable fail with only 150 lbs you must be swedging with your hands.I engineered built and test flew an airplane with a boxed and cable braced airframe 15 years ago, it was at that time I did my research on nicco's. Again one is as strong as the cable! the only time I have seen two is on hang gliders and ultralights.   the reason has allready been referred to in a post yesterday.If you are so unsure of your building abilities and the aircraft you fly then maybe two nicco's will keep you in the air!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



It is because of the stupidity of people like Planecrazy,(not going to pass airworthy inspection with one nicco) and remarks from old poops and some others on this list after my friend's with my plane, that I am content to just look at what others are doing. and keeps me from commenting on anything I do, or making suggestions on the list, and have asked milo to stop posting anything about my plane. sorry but with this comment I had to speak my mind.

(all spelling courtesy of Webster)

Uncle Craig

MkIII EX 912 ULS

Warp

DO NOT ARCHIVE  DO NOT ARCHIVE DO NOT ARCHIVE DO NOT ARCHIVE DO NOT ARCHIVE DO NOT ARCHIVE

biglar

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 457

Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 5:06 am Post subject: Dangerous or just scary

Pretty harsh, Craig.  You seemed like a fair and decent person when I met 

you at Monument Valley.                     Lar.                  Do not 

Archive.



Larry Bourne

Palm Springs, CA

Building Kolb Mk III

N78LB  Vamoose

www.gogittum.com



---

_________________
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk IIIC
"Vamoose"

rp3420(at)freescale.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 5:58 am Post subject: Dangerous or just scary

Larry and gang,



Your right!  That was pretty harsh????  I think uncle Craig was having a

bad day?  Please ignore his rant, I will apologize for his post. 



Tim Gherkins

Firestar II



--

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 6:27 am Post subject: Dangerous or just scary

We need to move on to new things but...



In a previous post I talked about some backyard engineers changing things to 

make something stronger but in fact creating weakness. I checked out a 

MKIIIc last summer were the builder had changed the control wires for the 

elevator from stock to what looked like 1/4 - 5/16 galvanized steel cables. 

I don't remember if any of the fittings on this control system were beefed 

up, I don't think so. My comment at the time was wow you must get some major 

cable slap.



Now that I think more about this, I feel that this is a good example of us 

backyard engineers trying to make something stronger but actually making it 

weaker. The stock cables are plenty strong. Seems like someone stated that 

they are rated at 480lbs. By increasing the size of the cables they fixed 

some thing that wasn't broken. By increasing the size of the cables they 

added weight. More importantly this weight has to be carried by pulling the 

cables with considerably more force than is necessary to keep the lighter 

cables suspended in the fuselage tube. When they taxi on rough ground the 

stress on the control system goes up big time. The control system is only as 

strong as its weakest link and the cables were likely never the weakest link 

(but I'm not a structural engineer). My point is this added stress could 

cause a critical control system failure just by having to carry the added 

stretched cable weight.



My personal rule is don't change the structural design of your airplane 

unless you KNOW you are making a overall improvement. Even then it is a good 

idea to check with the designer or someone else that DOES KNOW about these 

things.



Be careful out there.



Again this advice is worth what you paid for it.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIc

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: Dangerous or just scary

When "I" was asking about this "one" nicco BULLSHIT...



 IT WAS ABOUT SAFETY.....But it got SWITCHED around about critisizing your CRAFTSMANSHIP



 Which I NEVER did....



At one time I didn't give a FUCK....



Now I'm a Pilot...  



And I don't give a FLYING FUCK....



 KMA- Rick the Prick

n79rt(at)kilocharlie.us
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:56 pm Post subject: Dangerous or just scary

(CONTENTS OF MESSAGE EDITTED)

 KMA- Duane the PLAIN



<SNIP>



Ahhhh, there is that eloquence you are so famous for...wondered how long

till that came out.



Jeremy "had my mouth washed out long time ago" Casey

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: Dangerous or just scary

I guess you can only take so much of somebody TWISTING your words around til you won't stand for it .....and well....BOOOM



 Whatever,

Gotta Fly

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