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GrummanDude
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 926
Location: Auburn, CA
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 Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 7:55 pm Post subject: AG5B Jaguar |
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I flew the first AG5B Jaguar today. It has an MT Prop on it and LASAR ignition. Personally, I think the reason it feels rough is the LASAR but, then who knows. It was also hard to start.
Straight and level at 4000 feet, 147 TAS at 2720 rpm.
Straight and level at 3500 feet, 149 TAS at 2700 RPM and 147 TAS at 2550 rpm and 9.5 gph.
Now, If Ned will just put some wing walk back on . . . .
Gary
[quote][b]
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GrummanDude
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 926
Location: Auburn, CA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:58 pm Post subject: AG5B Jaguar |
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Ned picked up his plane today. We flew for about 30 minutes side-by-side. The CS MT PRop makes a big difference on cruise and fuel burn. I want one.
Gary
[quote][b]
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Gary
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customacprop(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:42 am Post subject: AG5B Jaguar |
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Hi Gary & all,
What a coincident. I just happened to have ordered two of the new MT Propellers for the Grumman Tiger at the old price.
One for the AA-5B and one for the AG-5B. They ship from Germany mid-May.
Regards,
Jim Ayers
Less Drag Products, Inc.
MT Propeller distributor
FAA Certified Repair Station #LDSR535X
(805) 795-5377
jim(at)lessdrag.com (jim(at)lessdrag.com)
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GrummanDude
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 926
Location: Auburn, CA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:13 am Post subject: AG5B Jaguar |
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I'd have to make no interest payments.
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customacprop(at)aol.com
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Davesbox1(at)AOL.COM
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:47 am Post subject: AG5B Jaguar |
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guys i have a friend with a recently overhauled ( upper half) tiger for sale in Texas_ 40k cash. ...let me know if you guys have any takers or interested parties....254-291-0903 D
In a message dated 4/25/2010 10:43:45 P.M. Central Daylight Time, customacprop(at)aol.com writes:
[quote][b]
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lmassaro(at)tac-eng.com
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| Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:46 am Post subject: AG5B Jaguar |
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[quote]So I gather from your response, the Project X plane will be using this prop?
What were you seeing (numbers please!) on cruise and fuel burn as compared to your AA-5 rocket?
Larry Massaro
9186M
1992 AG-5B
KRNM
[b]
From: teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM (teamgrumman(at)AOL.COM)
Sent: Sat, Apr 24, 2010 8:56 pm
Subject: AG5B Jaguar
Ned picked up his plane today. We flew for about 30 minutes side-by-side.
The CS MT PRop makes a big difference on cruise and fuel burn. I want
one.
Gary
[/b]
[b]
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GrummanDude
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 926
Location: Auburn, CA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:45 pm Post subject: AG5B Jaguar |
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I guess that IS the question isn't it.
Straight and level at 4000 feet, we were truing out at 152 knots. He was running 2700 rpm, I was running 2830.
I could climb with him, but just barely.
Project X plane is next. I have a torque tube I'm stripping and getting ready for paint. It'll be Red.
I've also ordered a windshield for Project X plane. The one that is in it is too bastardized to make fit right.
As soon as 119ST is finished, I'll get started on it.
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Gary
AuCountry Aviation
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JHOSLER(at)epri.com
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| Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:09 am Post subject: AG5B Jaguar |
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You guys have any pictures with the Jaguar cowl and MT prop combo?
John
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of teamgrumman(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 2:49 PM
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: AG5B Jaguar
I guess that IS the question isn't it.
Straight and level at 4000 feet, we were truing out at 152 knots. He was running 2700 rpm, I was running 2830.
I could climb with him, but just barely.
Project X plane is next. I have a torque tube I'm stripping and getting ready for paint. It'll be Red.
I've also ordered a windshield for Project X plane. The one that is in it is too bastardized to make fit right.
As soon as 119ST is finished, I'll get started on it.
-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Massaro <lmassaro(at)tac-eng.com>
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wed, Apr 28, 2010 8:46 am
Subject: Re: AG5B Jaguar | Quote: | | So I gather from your response, the Project X plane will be using this prop?What were you seeing (numbers please!) on cruise and fuel burn as compared to your AA-5 rocket? Larry Massaro9186M1992 AG-5BKRNM What were you seeing (numbers please!) on cruise and fuel burn as compared to your AA-5 rocket? |
0 | Quote: | | What were you seeing (numbers please!) on cruise and fuel burn as compared to your AA-5 rocket? |
1 | Quote: | | What were you seeing (numbers please!) on cruise and fuel burn as compared to your AA-5 rocket? |
2 | Quote: | | What were you seeing (numbers please!) on cruise and fuel burn as compared to your AA-5 rocket? |
3 | Quote: | | What were you seeing (numbers please!) on cruise and fuel burn as compared to your AA-5 rocket? |
4 | Quote: | | What were you seeing (numbers please!) on cruise and fuel burn as compared to your AA-5 rocket? |
5 | Quote: | | What were you seeing (numbers please!) on cruise and fuel burn as compared to your AA-5 rocket? |
6 | Quote: | | What were you seeing (numbers please!) on cruise and fuel burn as compared to your AA-5 rocket? |
7 | Quote: | | What were you seeing (numbers please!) on cruise and fuel burn as compared to your AA-5 rocket? |
8 | Quote: | | What were you seeing (numbers please!) on cruise and fuel burn as compared to your AA-5 rocket? |
901234567890
[quote][b]
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Discover
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:24 am Post subject: AG5B Jaguar |
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Yeah,
Me too.
I could climb with Gary but just barely...
That is I had to put the nose way down and climb 20kts faster than best climb rate;)
More info (numbers) soon as I finish flight testing.
Regards,
Ned
[quote][b]
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GrummanDude
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 926
Location: Auburn, CA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:09 pm Post subject: AG5B Jaguar |
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jkevinl(at)bellsouth.net
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| Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:48 pm Post subject: AG5B Jaguar |
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I'm eager to see some numbers too! We (True Flight) are set up to distribute and install these and will be offering them on the new Tigers too. As they say the proof is in the puddin' so how's the puddin' Ned?
Kevin
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GrummanDude
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 926
Location: Auburn, CA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:14 pm Post subject: AG5B Jaguar |
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Kevin,
For what-it's-worth, Ken Tunnell (LyCon Engine Rebuilders) and I have a 10:1 fuel injected engine in the works that is rated at 180 hp at 2550 rpm. With the MT prop, it should climb like a homesick angel and get awesome fuel mileage. The MT prop will take advantage of the extra torque and still improve cruise speeds.
Gary
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GrummanDude
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 926
Location: Auburn, CA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:34 am Post subject: AG5B Jaguar |
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Kevin,
The problem with running 2700 rpm, legally, with 10:1 compression in a certified engine is that the FAA would never approve it. Ken Tunnell is having a tough time with 10:1 approval at a reduced rpm in the Continental engines for which he's in the process of getting an STC. He'll begin the Lycs as soon as either I come up with money or he gets the STC for the Conts.
On-the-other-hand, let's say, for example, a Tiger was made available as a kit build experimental. Then,
(1) there is a WhirlWind prop that is much better than the MT prop.
(2) a tail wheel Tiger could be made easier
(3) no limits on engines
(4) construction techniques and problems with building could be sorted out in the field instead of on the assembly line
All the development that you don't have money to do could be done by everyone else. Look at my "Dumb Design Decisions" on my web site. None of those bad choices were addressed in the Tiger LLC version. I would venture to guess a hundred hours in assembly time could be saved if more thought were put into the process. "The janitor knows which broom is best." John Z DeLorean. I would venture to guess that a hundred pounds could be shaved off the plane too. "Adding horsepower makes you faster in the straights. Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere." Colin Chapman, founder of Lotus cars and Team Lotus Racing. and "Every car (plane) has a lot of speed in it. The trick is getting speed out of it." A.J. Foyt
One step at a time. I can only afford to do so much. I have about $150,000 and 10 years invested in my cowling. Yes, it's true, I could make is simpler and cheaper. But, the cooling would go out the window too. I patterned my cooling inlets after the Mooney Ovation inlets. I see that they have changed to a simpler and cheaper inlet. It probably works. But, who out there is willing to give up 15 degrees of CHT for a cheaper inlet?
Project X: As soon as Brian's plane is gone and then Joe's plane and then 3 or so annuals, work begins on the Project X plane. It's an AG5B.
• The first step is to fix (i.e., correct) the poorly designed carb air inlet using as much hardware as is already there. The idea is to provide something that is simple to install and regains the lost inch of pressure.
Lots of plans for Project X.
Stay tuned.
Gary
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Discover
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:57 pm Post subject: AG5B Jaguar |
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Two FAA certified examples of 10:1 pistons
1) The helicopter engine HIO-360-D1A which is rated at 190HP at 3200RPM on 100/100LL with compression ratio of 10.00:1
2) Firewall Forward has STC'd 10:1 pistons in the Mooney and Cardinal without RPM restrictions according to their representative spoke with.
http://firewallforward.com/horsepowerplusstc.pdf
Admittedly, these are not paraleel valve but are angle valve engines but they do show that the FAA has approved 10:1 pistons at or above 2700rpm
----- Original Message ---
[quote][b]
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GrummanDude
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
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Location: Auburn, CA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:22 pm Post subject: AG5B Jaguar |
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True. It can be done. You can put 10:1 pistons into an -A4K. But. You would have to re-certify first, the engine, then the airframe for the additional horsepower, change the POH, come up with all new performance data, reliability data, cooling data, . . . . . Is it worth it? You tell me. I'll use your money to find out.
What I meant was, "the FAA would never approve putting 10:1 into an A4K running at 2700 rpm without lots of money." Keeping the -A4K at 180 hp makes all the difference in the world.
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flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com
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| Posted: Sat May 01, 2010 5:45 am Post subject: AG5B Jaguar |
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The Sparrow Hawk conversion of the O-235-L2C uses 9.7:1 CR as I recall and 100LL fuel. And it is a parallel valve engine.
Maybe the more important question is how much longer are we going to have 100LL fuel. Their is a stronger and stronger effort to get rid of it. There are alternatives but I haven't heard of anyone talking about 10:1 CR engines running on it, only the HP big bore Continentals and Lycomings with 8.5 and 8.7:1 and turbocharged engines. 10:1 might run on something less than 100 octane but it would probably take knock sensors and variable ignition timing to do it. Why pursue this as a goal with so much stacked against you cost wise and maybe technology wise?
Cliff
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Davesbox1(at)AOL.COM
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| Posted: Sat May 01, 2010 5:47 am Post subject: AG5B Jaguar |
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my dad is an aerospace engineer retired......(physically but not mentally lol) anyway when i bought the tiger 7 years ago....he of course read all that he could on the aircraft and made about a dozen suggestions.....i talked with a few A&P's and mentioned a couple to Dave Fletcher who is always a fundamental source of good ideas and info....and almost all were prohibited- required STC"s even down to simple things like re-routing the air intake...its depressing......i understand the concept of safety safety safety....AND establishing a system that respects and adheres to the engineers plans ( and money) who developed the tiger in the first place....but damn....IF we could take the name off the airplane and modify the hell out of it legally.....it could be so much more efficient no? but i guess then we would have a RV aircraft with incredible numbers on performance and almost no restrictions on smart mods like electronic ignitions, un-obstructed air intakes, custom exhausts........no?
dave
In a message dated 4/30/2010 11:23:31 P.M. Central Daylight Time, teamgrumman(at)aol.com writes:
| Quote: | True. It can be done. You can put 10:1 pistons into an -A4K. But. You would have to re-certify first, the engine, then the airframe for the additional horsepower, change the POH, come up with all new performance data, reliability data, cooling data, . . . . . Is it worth it? You tell me. I'll use your money to find out.
What I meant was, "the FAA would never approve putting 10:1 into an A4K running at 2700 rpm without lots of money." Keeping the -A4K at 180 hp makes all the difference in the world.
-----Original Message-----
From: 923te <923te(at)att.net>
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Fri, Apr 30, 2010 8:04 pm
Subject: Re: Re: AG5B Jaguar
Two FAA certified examples of 10:1 pistons
1) The helicopter engine HIO-360-D1A which is rated at 190HP at 3200RPM on 100/100LL with compression ratio of 10.00:1
2) Firewall Forward has STC'd 10:1 pistons in the Mooney and Cardinal without RPM restrictions according to their representative spoke with.
http://firewallforward.com/horsepowerplusstc.pdf
Admittedly, these are not paraleel valve but are angle valve engines but they do show that the FAA has approved 10:1 pistons at or above 2700rpm
----- Original Message ---
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ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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Discover
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Sat May 01, 2010 5:49 am Post subject: AG5B Jaguar |
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You just have to know the tricks of working with the FAA.
In this case the trick is in how to word the certification. That is certify the 10:1 pistons in the Tiger by limiting the maximum continuous horsepower to 180 by reducing manifold pressure and limiting maximum continuous r.p.m. to 2700.
The 8.5:1 STC for the O-320 that Bill Scott has does it this way.
Then you would have to do similar proof tests just as Firewall Forward did:
"The airframe and power plant certification testing involved engine dyno runs to verify and document both H.P. and torque increases; engine detonation testing performed at sea level conditions by authorized FAA testing facilities; engine oil cooling tests performed by the FAA at gross weight, max rate of climb and an ambient temperature of 100F, engine propeller vibration and increase torque compatibility testing performed by McCauley Engineers in Dayton, Ohio; effects of torque increases on both spin entry and recovery in all flight regimes, and engine out and airstart procedures evaluated for P.O.H. compliance."
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