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Electronic Ignition?

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cpayne(at)joimail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:33 pm Post subject: Electronic Ignition?

Sooo, when all you guys install either Barry's or Mark's electronic ignition, throw them old magnetos my way so I can "recycle" them...



Craig Payne

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:56 am Post subject: Electronic Ignition?

Sadly no.  The design I am contemplating uses the old mag case and

rotating pieces.  It will not use the existing mag coil that is getting

so hard to find.  I am trying to apply the KISS principle.  I also am

not a design engineering "team" and this is one of those "get around to

it" projects.  However, it should have a terrifically strong spark,

multiple discharge at idle, backup (ignition) starting ability if the

"shower of sparks // Booster coil" system fails, easy to service and

replace and cheap.  



The down side is that I have to make sure the existing internal high

voltage components of the original mag (cap, rotor, cigarette) will be

able to hold up to about twice the high voltage that they are carrying

now.  In order to test that off an aircraft, I have to modify a

distributor spinning machine to accept this mag, and then operate it

with test equipment applied to look for internal breakdown.  



I'm collecting old mags myself.   



Mark

 



--

dougsappllc(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:54 am Post subject: Electronic Ignition?

Mark,Sounds like you have excluded the coil from the system but just for conversation sake I have contracted with a US company to produce a run of 350 coils, these coils will fit both the Russian and Chinese mags.

 



I have dual Light Speed units on on my cub with a back up battery and have yet to find a down side to the installation, no moving parts, hotter spark, more power, and much lighter weight.   This all begs the question WHY don't we have something like this for the radial engines?

 



Doug



On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 7:55 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

  

 Sadly no.  The design I am contemplating uses the old mag case and

 rotating pieces.  It will not use the existing mag coil that is getting

 so hard to find.  I am trying to apply the KISS principle.  I also am

 not a design engineering "team" and this is one of those "get around to

 it" projects.  However, it should have a terrifically strong spark,

 multiple discharge at idle, backup (ignition) starting ability if the

 "shower of sparks // Booster coil" system fails, easy to service and

 replace and cheap.

 

 The down side is that I have to make sure the existing internal high

 voltage components of the original mag (cap, rotor, cigarette) will be

 able to hold up to about twice the high voltage that they are carrying

 now.  In order to test that off an aircraft, I have to modify a

 distributor spinning machine to accept this mag, and then operate it

 with test equipment applied to look for internal breakdown.

 

 I'm collecting old mags myself.  

 

 Mark

 

 

 --

talew(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:08 am Post subject: Electronic Ignition?

Doug,

 Let us know when you get the coils .

 Terry



 

   From: doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com>

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tue, June 29, 2010 11:50:15 AM

Subject: Re: Electronic Ignition?



Mark,  Sounds like you have excluded the coil from the system but just for conversation sake I have contracted with a US company to produce a run of 350 coils, these coils will fit both the Russian and Chinese mags.

 



 I have dual Light Speed units on on my cub with a back up battery and have yet to find a down side to the installation, no moving parts, hotter spark, more power, and much lighter weight.   This all begs the question WHY don't we have something like this for the radial engines?

 



 Doug

 

 On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 7:55 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>



Sadly no.  The design I am contemplating uses the old mag case and

rotating pieces.  It will not use the existing mag coil that is getting

so hard to find.  I am trying to apply the KISS principle.  I also am

not a design engineering "team" and this is one of those "get around to

it" projects.  However, it should have a terrifically strong spark,

multiple discharge at idle, backup (ignition) starting ability if the

"shower of sparks // Booster coil" system fails, easy to service and

replace and cheap.



The down side is that I have to make sure the  existing internal high

voltage components of the original mag (cap, rotor, cigarette) will be

able to hold up to about twice the high voltage that they are carrying

now.  In order to test that off an aircraft, I have to modify a

distributor spinning machine to accept this mag, and then operate it

with test equipment applied to look for internal breakdown.



I'm collecting old mags myself.  



Mark

--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:08 am Post subject: Electronic Ignition?

I think it is mainly a matter of "volume".  If you can convince Light

Speed to make a system for our 9 cylinder arrangement (and that is the

real issue in design) then they would be a much better source than what

I am contemplating!  



I did not know that you had contracted to have a run of coils made.  NEW

INFO!  This might move my project to the FAR back burner as I have no

desire to re-invent the wheel.  



No matter what kind of system that is used, you are always going to need

some kind of trigger.  Since this is a geared engine, it is going to be

a little bit difficult to get that off any external moving parts, such

as is the case with car engine crank triggers that are usually attached

in some way to the harmonic balancer, etc.  I am guessing that even

Light Speed is going to have problems in that regard, unless they custom

design something that goes into the holes where the mags USED to go.

That, by the way, is the exact problem I am having... Because no one

wants to do that level of design, at that kind of expense, for the small

market we appear to represent.  That is why my starting design continues

to use the M9 mag case. Actually the CJ-6 mag case would work just as

well.  Advance mechanisms can be retained or removed.  



Bottom line, I don't think they are making it for us because we do not

appear to be a market they can make money from. 



Mark

 



--

gill.g(at)gpimail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:52 am Post subject: Electronic Ignition?

Doug,  

   

Light Speed take timing directly off the engine crank, Housia and M14s don’t have a convenient take off point.  I worked with the guy in Australia who makes his own 9 cylinder radial complete with electronic ignition driven off the auxiliary.  The problem was that it was too expensive, as I recall $2000 to replace both mags.  The system will fit in place of one mag.  It had two Hall sensors taking off the same point to assure that spark was synchronized.  

   

Gill  

     

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of doug sapp

 Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 8:50 AM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Electronic Ignition?  

  

   

Mark,    

Sounds like you have excluded the coil from the system but just for conversation sake I have contracted with a US company to produce a run of 350 coils, these coils will fit both the Russian and Chinese mags.  

    

   

    

I have dual Light Speed units on on my cub with a back up battery and have yet to find a down side to the installation, no moving parts, hotter spark, more power, and much lighter weight.   This all begs the question WHY don't we have something like this for the radial engines?  

    

   

    

Doug  

    

     

On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 7:55 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:  

--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

 

 Sadly no.  The design I am contemplating uses the old mag case and

 rotating pieces.  It will not use the existing mag coil that is getting

 so hard to find.  I am trying to apply the KISS principle.  I also am

 not a design engineering "team" and this is one of those "get around to

 it" projects.  However, it should have a terrifically strong spark,

 multiple discharge at idle, backup (ignition) starting ability if the

 "shower of sparks // Booster coil" system fails, easy to service and

 replace and cheap.

 

 The down side is that I have to make sure the existing internal high

 voltage components of the original mag (cap, rotor, cigarette) will be

 able to hold up to about twice the high voltage that they are carrying

 now.  In order to test that off an aircraft, I have to modify a

 distributor spinning machine to accept this mag, and then operate it

 with test equipment applied to look for internal breakdown.

 

 I'm collecting old mags myself.  

 

 Mark

 

 

 --

bwade154(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:55 am Post subject: Electronic Ignition?

Mark I've been using Champion plugs in two airplanes for three years no fouled plugs. The latest cars are using coil over plug technology just supply 12V at the proper time talk about redundancy nine set of points simple, or computer control with advance timing for RPM & power curve OHH YA. Do have an extra mag if yo send it back with KISS electronic ignition.

   From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tue, June 29, 2010 10:55:34 AM

Subject: RE: Electronic Ignition?

--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

Sadly no.  The design I am contemplating uses the old mag case and

rotating pieces.  It will not use the existing mag coil that is getting

so hard to find.  I am trying to apply the KISS principle.  I also am

not a design engineering "team" and this is one of those "get around to

it" projects.  However,  it should have a terrifically strong spark,

multiple discharge at idle, backup (ignition) starting ability if the

"shower of sparks // Booster coil" system fails, easy to service and

replace and cheap.  

The down side is that I have to make sure the existing internal high

voltage components of the original mag (cap, rotor, cigarette) will be

able to hold up to about twice the high voltage that they are carrying

now.  In order to test that off an aircraft, I have to modify a

distributor spinning machine to accept this mag, and then operate it

with test equipment applied to look for internal breakdown.  

I'm collecting old mags myself.   

Mark

--

dstroud(at)xplornet.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 12:52 pm Post subject: Electronic Ignition?

It's just not that tough to do. Been there two times and  retrofitted a four banger (Subaru),

 single to dual electronic ignition and a six banger (Corvair )  , single points to dual  electronic back 

 in my auto conversion days. Take a  look here and  see the poor boy method on the Corvair. Scroll  down. 

 http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/corvair/dstroud/   or here to see how a Compufire unit

 feeds dual ignition to a highly modified (short stroke) vw  :

 http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2010-06_aeromorph75.asp

  

 Here's how my Corvair got done. Yank out the points system  and leave in the mechanical

 auto advance pack. Make up a new flat plate to hold two  ignition modules 180 degrees apart,

 install a six cylinder reluctor (we gaffed one from an  electronic Ford F-150). Each module fires

 out to it's own coil, the coil output feeds an MSD coil  joiner and that feeds the distributor, the 

 rotor in the distributor farts out the sparks to the  appropriate cylinders. 

  

 M14's and Huosai's  have the benefit of two mags  being driven anyway  into 18 plugs so no need for  the coil joiner 

 parts. This system is dependent on  having a live battery on board. No battery = you're now in a glider.  

  

 Could you possibly run one mag as  usual and put the electronic in the other or retain a dedicated 

 emergency backup battery for ignition only if your stock  battery went flat ?

  

 David Stroud     Ottawa, Canada

Christavia  C-FDWS

Fairchild 51 replica

under  construction C-FYXV

  

 ---

bigdog(at)bentwing.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:07 pm Post subject: Electronic Ignition?

Light Speed also has a Hall effect sensor that replaces  a mag for Lycomings. 



 [quote]         From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com    [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gill    Gutierrez

Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 11:39 AM

To:    yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Electronic    Ignition?

   

      

Doug,   

    

Light    Speed take timing directly off the engine crank, Housia and M14s don’t have a    convenient take off point.  I worked with the guy in Australia who makes    his own 9 cylinder radial complete with electronic ignition driven off the    auxiliary.  The problem was that it was too expensive, as I recall $2000    to replace both mags.  The system will fit in place of one mag.  It    had two Hall sensors taking off the same point to assure that spark was    synchronized.   

    

Gill   

     



[b]

dstroud(at)xplornet.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:12 pm Post subject: Electronic Ignition?

It shouldn't be that tough to do on the existing mags.  Been there done that two times and retrofitted 

 a four banger (Subaru), single to  dual electronic ignition and a six  (Corvair  )  , single points to dual 

 electronic back in my auto  conversion days. Take a  look here and see  the poor boy method on the 

 Corvair. Scroll down. http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/corvair/dstroud/   or here to see how a 

 Compufire unit feeds dual ignition  to a highly modified (short stroke) vw :

 http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2010-06_aeromorph75.asp

  

 Here's how my Corvair got done. Yank out the points system  and leave in the mechanical

 auto advance pack. Make up a new flat plate to hold two  ignition modules 180 degrees apart,

 install a six cylinder reluctor (we gaffed one from an  electronic Ford F-150). Each module fires

 out to it's own coil, the coil output feeds an MSD coil  joiner and that feeds the distributor, the 

 rotor in the distributor farts out the sparks to the  appropriate cylinders. 

  

 M14's and Huosai's  have the benefit of two mags  being driven  into 18 plugs  already so no  need for 

 the coil joiner parts. This system  is dependent on having a live battery on board.  

 No battery = you're now in a glider. 

  

 Could you possibly run one mag as  usual and put the electronic in the other or retain a dedicated 

 emergency backup battery for ignition only if your stock  battery went flat and run two "electronic"

 mags gutted out for the purpose ?

  

 David Stroud     Ottawa, Canada

Christavia  C-FDWS

Fairchild 51 replica

under  construction C-FYXV

  

 ---

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:52 pm Post subject: Electronic Ignition?

That is exactly the START of the idea I am working on.  A multiple coil

system would indeed be a hot setup!  The problem there is in complexity

and in component location.  I have not solved those issues.  Wish I

could.  To keep it simple, I planned on using the original spark

distribution system, using of course new wires and auto plugs (Iridium

or otherwise), because the original spark plug wires won't stand up to

the spark voltage this system will generate.  Speaking about plug gaps:

This system would easily support plug gaps up to .045    My research has

so far implied that the actual mechanism of the mags we are using now

are FAIRLY reliable, although I have had two cases of internal gear

failure.  These seem to be unusual though, and were probably due to an

actual engine issue!  I am looking at putting a Hall Effect sensor into

the mag to replace the points, but .... The points themselves would

indeed work to get things up and running quickly.  You see, what I am

looking at here is a simple kit that you can buy yourself (not

necessarily from me by the way.. But totally on your own) and install it

yourself.  It's not rocket science.  At least, I hope not. 



Mark

--

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:58 pm Post subject: Electronic Ignition?

Ironically, there IS a solid state ignition system for radial  engines.  Just not OUR radial engines.  The company in Australia,  Rotec, who builds the two small radials (7 and 9 cylinder) manufactures an  electronic ignition for their engines.  They have expressed ZERO interest  in OEM'ing their 9 cylinder units which could be easily adapted to our  engines.

 Dennis

  

 [quote]   ---

gill.g(at)gpimail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:40 pm Post subject: Electronic Ignition?

Yes the problem with our engines is that they are geared props rather than direct drive, so you can’t mount the sensor on the prop shaft for timing.  M14 has different gearing as compared to the Housia.   The Light Speed uses a wasted spark system and times directly off the crank.  

   

Gill  

       

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg

 Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 12:57 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Electronic Ignition?  

  

  

   

Light Speed also has a Hall effect sensor that replaces a mag for Lycomings.    	  Quote: 	
		    

       

  

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gill Gutierrez

 Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 11:39 AM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Electronic Ignition?  

Doug,  

   

Light Speed take timing directly off the engine crank, Housia and M14s don’t have a convenient take off point.  I worked with the guy in Australia who makes his own 9 cylinder radial complete with electronic ignition driven off the auxiliary.  The problem was that it was too expensive, as I recall $2000 to replace both mags.  The system will fit in place of one mag.  It had two Hall sensors taking off the same point to assure that spark was synchronized.  

   

Gill  

     

   

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dstroud(at)xplornet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 5:33 am Post subject: Electronic Ignition?

Does anyone on the list have a baffed out  Huosai mag  they are willing to sell? Hopefully

complete but worn components ok. There was a lad on this list I sold a Huosai engine

core to a few years back to replace his cracked block....any mags left over from that one ?

Thanks. 



David Stroud     Ottawa, Canada

Christavia C-FDWS

Fairchild 51 replica

under  construction C-FYXV

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