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hans-chr.erstad(at)c2i.ne
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 Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:43 pm Post subject: SV: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics |
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'OC', Mark and others discussing the KIS 1 handling.
I have flown my KIS 1 for 10 years now, and I agree with 'OC' comments about
the handling with respect to difficulties making consistent landings and
keeping the nose wheel up.
I built my KIS 100% according to the manual. This include tilting the main
gear slightly forward to get the wheels at the correct station (can't
remember what STA thou). Flying alone with no luggage means max forward
CG. Flying with a passenger and luggage, placing the CG max aft, make it
easier to keep the nose wheel up after landing (but not for ever 
About the wing/fuselage fairing. I have meet Julian several times at
fly-in. He told that the fairing modification made the landings with a low
approach speed a lot easier. Why not believe his experience? I think he is
the only one to make the modification, and having experiencd what difference
it makes. I have fairing modification on my to-do list. But I may never
come to that item on my list, as I feel the landings are still OK, and I do
not operate from runways shorter than 800 meters. I usually keep a little
power on in the flare.
Regards, Hans Christian, KIS #032
-----Opprinnelig melding-----
Fra: owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com] På vegne av bakerocb(at)cox.net
Sendt: 3. juli 2010 18:15
Til: kis-list(at)matronics.com; Kettering, Mark
Emne: Re: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics
7/3/2010
Hello Mark, Thanks for your reply, the good wishes, and the page from
Stinton's book. You wrote:
1) "I am not convinced there is an elevator problem being caused by
separation in this area with my aircraft. I have never had a problem with
elevator authority up to stall both in and out of ground effect."
We may not understand completely what is going on pitch wise in the landing
flare and ground effect with the KIS TR-1, but it would seem that enough
pilots have reported enough surprises / problems in this arena that we:
A) Don't have a firm grasp on the nature of what is happening in this arena;
B) Don't have agreement on the existence or extent of the surprises /
problems in this arena; and C) Don't have agreement on whether a solution is
required or what that solution should be.
I do agree with Rich that the problem is not dangerous, but I am still a bit
annoyed that after flying 50 years plus, 5,000 hours plus over all, and
almost 300 hours in this plane that I can't do a consistent flare and
touchdown on every landing. Further the nose wheel touches down immediately
after the main gear touches down almost every time. On a few rare occasions
I have kept the nose wheel from touching down, but when I make a determined
attempt to keep the nose wheel from touching down I am likely to do a little
re airborne skip.
2) "I have not seen the video and am waiting on getting it from Scott."
If my DVD copy efforts have been successful I am willing to make more copies
and send them to interested KIS TR-1 pilots -- this is what Julian had in
mind in sending me the DVD. You will see video of yarn tufts flowing forward
against the direction of travel in the wing to fuselage fillet area. Don't
know what this is doing to the air flow back at the horizontal tail
surfaces, but it can't be all good.
'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to
gather and understand knowledge."
=============================================================
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mantafs(at)earthlink.net
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:23 am Post subject: SV: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics |
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Hello Hans,
| Quote: | I have flown my KIS 1 for 10 years now, and I agree with 'OC' comments about
the handling with respect to difficulties making consistent landings and
keeping the nose wheel up.
|
I have flown a TR1 with the main gear in the stock position and with that aircraft I also had the same problems. So I made some calculations and found out that the stock main gear location was too far aft. On my TR1 I then moved it forward and fully eliminated not only this problem on my aircraft but also the takeoff tendency to over rotate. When flying with Rich and watching the stick I noted that he had to pull way back to rotate then quickly release this back force and movement to prevent over rotation on lift off.
| Quote: | About the wing/fuselage fairing. I have meet Julian several times at
fly-in. He told that the fairing modification made the landings with a low
approach speed a lot easier. Why not believe his experience? I think he is
the only one to make the modification, and having experiencd what difference
it makes. I have fairing modification on my to-do list. But I may never
come to that item on my list, as I feel the landings are still OK, and I do
not operate from runways shorter than 800 meters. I usually keep a little
power on in the flare.
|
Well, I am not a believer! But that has little to do with Julian's experiences. More to do with science and engineering methods. At some point with more data I may agree that the elevator loses authority due to wing fuselage junction separation. At this point I am waiting on seeing the video for myself. The one still picture I have seen does not seem to support the conclusion that the wing fuselage junction is causing separation of flow over the tail. I also never have a sudden loss or any loss of elevator authority with my aircraft at any time and I have the stock wing root fairings so this data also does not seem to support that conclusion.
But this is not to say that Julian did not have this problem. Maybe his plane is slightly different than mine. Maybe my more poor (or maybe better) fit of my parts in this area prevented a problem that his plane had. Who knows?
But I do do know the stock main gear location is too far aft relative to the CG (range) location. I also know that angling the gear forward (moving the gear contact point forward) reduces the hard nose let down at all CG locations and cures the tendency to over rotate.
Next time you fly please try this for me but be very careful and let me know what happens! As you pull back to rotate just hold the stick in the same location and fly off the runway. This is how a good handling aircraft should takeoff. It should not need pilot input beyond a steady back pressure. You should not need to release or push forward. The plane should literally "fly itself" off the runway. But if you do this in the TR1 with the main gear in the stock location you will over rotate and need to move the stick forward. Or you will stall and maybe worse.
Also please keep in mind that the gear location is very easy to change.
Thanks,
Mark
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ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:53 pm Post subject: SV: Re: KIS IT-1 Aerodynamics |
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Mark, 'OC' and all,
My gear dimensions are as follows;
Main gear axle center line to firewall is 42 1/8"
" " " " " " nose gear axle center line 53"
I would be interested to see your numbers.
In retrospect, I do have to watch and may have to increase stick pressure in
order to keep the nose gear off the runway. But I do have plenty of elevator
authority to do that.
Julian's plane was a tail dragger (conventional) I think. He was trying to
give it STOL qualities, an oxymoron I think. I forget what he built to
replace the KIS, I think it is a high wing with better STOL qualities.
Mark, I am in annual now, but I will try and report on your take off
procedure. That is if I don't stall, crash, and burn!
Also, maybe it would be helpful to confirm final approach and touch down
speeds from the GPS, if available, to confirm the accuracy of our different
pitot systems at slow speeds. I you are flying alone, it might be safest to
do this at altitude in a practice area.
'OC', maybe Mark and Rich are just better pilots than you and I because I
use your technique for more consistent landings.
Oh, Mark and 'OC' what was the thickness of your main gear shims? Are they
fiberglass or aluminum or???
Tim
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