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TR1 Nose Leg material

 
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John Jackson



Joined: 27 Mar 2010
Posts: 14
Location: Shrewsbury, UK

PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:53 am    Post subject: TR1 Nose Leg material Reply with quote

Hello Guys

Does anyone know what metal the second generation (solid round bar) nose leg is made from. I understand that the mounting weldment is 4130; but is the round bar also 4130?

Thanks in anticipation.

JJ

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:28 pm    Post subject: TR1 Nose Leg material Reply with quote

John
There never was a solid round bar version made by Tri R so I would assum that this was a conversion by someone along the way. You might have to track the original builder to find out what he did
Rich

--- On Wed, 7/21/10, JOHN JACKSON <helixaviation(at)btinternet.com> wrote:

Quote:

From: JOHN JACKSON <helixaviation(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: TR1 Nose Leg material
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, July 21, 2010, 7:51 PM


Hello Guys

Does anyone know what metal the second generation (solid round bar) nose leg is made from. I understand that the mounting weldment is 4130; but is the round bar also 4130?

Thanks in anticipation.

JJ

Quote:


=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List
et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com
llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution



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bakerocb



Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:41 pm    Post subject: TR1 Nose Leg material Reply with quote

7/21/2010

Hello JJ, It would help us to answer your question if we knew why you were
asking it. You wrote:

1) "Does anyone know what metal the second generation....."

There were several iterations of the nose landing gear on the KIS TR-1 so it
is probably impossible to use the term "second generation" and have
everybody understand and agree on just exactly what version of the nose
landing gear strut that you are asking about.

2) ".....(solid round bar).......

I never had the very earliest version(s) of the KIS TR-1 nose landing gear
strut in my hands so I looked at the drawings / pictures and assumed that I
was looking at a round, solid, hardened (spring) steel, tapered rod.

But Rich writes: "There never was a solid round bar version made by Tri
R...." So that leaves further potential confusion regarding the exact KIS
TR-1 nose landing gear strut, or its source and material, that you are
asking about.

3) "I understand that the mounting weldment is 4130; but is the round bar
also 4130?"

So we can't answer for certain your question about the material that the
mystery solid, round, nose landing gear strut is made from, but if you read
some of the email exchanges copied below I'd be willing to bet that any KIS
TR-1 nose landing gear strut that we know of, regardless of its shape or
solidity, was made of 4130 steel.

If you expand on your question a bit we may be able to provide more help.

'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to
gather and understand knowledge."

============================================================
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ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:28 pm    Post subject: TR1 Nose Leg material Reply with quote

Hi Rich,

I'm going on memory, which is questionable. It was probably three years ago when my nose gear cracked where the solid down rod entered the tube that became the firewall mount. The tube cracked, not the rod. Their were 3 or 4 spot welds that mated the rod to the tube. My welder replaced the tube with a thicker one and added more bracing. The down rod is threaded on the other end to attach the nose wheel yoke.

This was the version that came with my kit #47 in 1993. You had welded two horizontal, triangular shaped braces to to the tube as a beef up to the original (previous?) one. I think this was in response to some trouble that some were having when landing on turf runways.

Anyway I'd bet my KIS that the down rod is solid 3/4" rod, I think, (Since you are way down there and I'm not telling you where I am!)

I am sure I posted some pictures on Bob Andersons site. There goes that memory thing again.

Tim
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John Jackson



Joined: 27 Mar 2010
Posts: 14
Location: Shrewsbury, UK

PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:37 pm    Post subject: TR1 Nose Leg material Reply with quote

Rich/OC

I may be confusing things somewhat. I have always assumed that my nose leg was a solid bar but to be honest, I've never checked. Certainly the threaded portion that the castor assembly is attached to seems solid.

I'll try and attach a picture to clear up the confusion. (The fillet welded onto the lower bend is a later modification).

Thanks

JJ


From: "bakerocb(at)cox.net" <bakerocb(at)cox.net>
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com; helixaviation(at)btinternet.com
Sent: Wednesday, 21 July, 2010 22:41:13
Subject: Re: TR1 Nose Leg material

--> KIS-List message posted by: <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)>

7/21/2010

Hello JJ, It would help us to answer your question if we knew why you were asking it. You wrote:

1) "Does anyone know what metal the second generation....."

There were several iterations of the nose landing gear on the KIS TR-1 so it is probably impossible to use the term "second generation" and have everybody understand and agree on just exactly what version of the nose landing gear strut that you are asking about.

2) ".....(solid round bar).......

I never had the very earliest version(s) of the KIS TR-1 nose landing gear strut in my hands so I looked at the drawings / pictures and assumed that I was looking at a round, solid, hardened (spring) steel, tapered rod.

But Rich writes: "There never was a solid round bar version made by Tri R...." So that leaves further potential confusion regarding the exact KIS TR-1 nose landing gear strut, or its source and material, that you are asking about.

3) "I understand that the mounting weldment is 4130; but is the round bar also 4130?"

So we can't answer for certain your question about the material that the mystery solid, round, nose landing gear strut is made from, but if you read some of the email exchanges copied below I'd be willing to bet that any KIS TR-1 nose landing gear strut that we know of, regardless of its shape or solidity, was made of 4130 steel.

If you expand on your question a bit we may be able to provide more help.

'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to gather and understand knowledge."

==========
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bakerocb



Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:49 am    Post subject: TR1 Nose Leg material Reply with quote

7/22/2010

Hello Tim,

1) JJ wrote: "Does anyone know what metal the second generation (solid round
bar) nose leg...."

2) Rich wrote: "There never was a solid round bar version made by Tri R...."

3) You wrote: "Anyway I'd bet my KIS that the down rod is solid 3/4" rod..."

The presumption is that JJ was asking about the angled nose landing gear
strut that extends from the firewall area down to the short vertical stub
when he wrote "nose leg".

Rich answered in that regard when he said that Tri R never made a "solid
round bar version".

I don't think that there was any question or doubt that the short vertical
stub was solid steel in all versions of the KIS TR-1 nose landing gear. Only
confusion about the solidity of the angled strut portion.

'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to
gather and understand knowledge."

PS: We still don't know why JJ was asking the question.

=====================================================

---


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:21 am    Post subject: TR1 Nose Leg material Reply with quote

JJ
If I recall right the downtube (Lower portion of nosegear) is .156 wall 4130 that is bent to shape with a threaded plug pinned into place. This was then heat treated as per lyles discription. If you had heated it red to straighten you would indeed normalize the material to close to its original state. (donīt know the real details on normalizing) Lyle????. this would weaken it and allow it to bend easier. you could heat treat it again or have lyle build you a new improved gear at a reasonable price
Rich

--- On Thu, 7/22/10, bakerocb(at)cox.net <bakerocb(at)cox.net> wrote:

[quote]
From: bakerocb(at)cox.net <bakerocb(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: TR1 Nose Leg material
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Thursday, July 22, 2010, 11:24 AM

--> KIS-List message posted by: <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)>

7/22/2010

Hello Tim,

1) JJ wrote: "Does anyone know what metal the second generation (solid round bar) nose leg...."

2) Rich wrote: "There never was a solid round bar version made by Tri R...."

3) You wrote: "Anyway I'd bet my KIS that the down rod is solid 3/4" rod..."

The presumption is that JJ was asking about the angled nose landing gear strut that extends from the firewall area down to the short vertical stub when he wrote "nose leg".

Rich answered in that regard when he said that Tri R never made a "solid round bar version".

I don't think that there was any question or doubt that the short vertical stub was solid steel in all versions of the KIS TR-1 nose landing gear. Only confusion about the solidity of the angled strut portion.

'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to gather and understand knowledge."

PS: We still don't know why JJ was asking the question.

===

---


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bakerocb



Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:49 am    Post subject: TR1 Nose Leg material Reply with quote

7/22/2010

Hello Tim, You wrote: "I guess I don't understand the question or the parts
we are talking about." and "I am not clear on the short vertical stub that
is solid steel."

I think that some confusion on this point is very possible. What we are
referring to when we use the term "short vertical stub" is a solid rod of
steel, threaded on the bottom end, that was pinned into the end of the
hollow steel tube strut that came down from the firewall area.**

The stub and the tube were joined in such a fashion that someone looking at
the stub could easily believe that the remainder of the nose landing gear
strut was also solid.

If you will look at page 7 of the Newsletter Vol 1, Issue 3 - Sept 1993 you
will see a sketch of this solid stub area and the hollow tube that extends
above it.

'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to
gather and understand knowledge."

**PS: In later versions of the nose landing gear strut assembly, such as the
one that Lyle made for me, that short solid vertical stub was welded into
place.

====================================================

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ken757(at)comcast.net
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:02 am    Post subject: TR1 Nose Leg material Reply with quote

The original nose leg was not solid. It was a tube with a solid threaded plug in the end for the castor assembly. I rebuilt it years ago using a 1.5 " od 1/8 "wall tubing all the way up to the firewall tube which I could not replace because of the space restrictions of my 023L2C LYC. I fly off a grass strip and have no problem with the gear so far.
[quote] ---


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John Jackson



Joined: 27 Mar 2010
Posts: 14
Location: Shrewsbury, UK

PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:11 pm    Post subject: TR1 Nose Leg material Reply with quote

Rich and all

Thanks for the advice. I've just removed my nose leg for straightening and found the 'pin' that holds the stub into the tube.

Rather than straightening the original leg, I'm considering replacing the lower tube section by drilling out the rosette weld where it slides into the upper portion.

Any thoughts about wall thickness of the replacement lower tube?  Would replacing like-for-like be the best bet or does anyone think a thicker walled tube would be stronger yet still flexible enough to take out the shock loads? Also, how about bolting the nose leg assembly back together (with suitable bushing) rather than rosette welding; this would make it easier to replace the lower portion in the future if it bends again? I'd plan to have 3 new lower sections made locally and get the whole lot, including the original mounting bracket, heat treated as per Lyles description.

Having completed 320 hours and about 750 landings (250 of which were on to grass), I'm happy that the nose leg assembly I've got is doing a good job, it's just not 'man enough' for rough fields. In future I'll stick to smooth grass strips but have some spares incase I hit an unexpected bump.

Thanks

JJ


From: Richard Trickel <richard_trickel(at)yahoo.com>
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, 22 July, 2010 13:16:54
Subject: Re: TR1 Nose Leg material

JJ
If I recall right the downtube (Lower portion of nosegear) is .156 wall 4130 that is bent to shape with a threaded plug pinned into place. This was then heat treated as per lyles discription. If you had heated it red to straighten you would indeed normalize the material to close to its original state. (donīt know the real details on normalizing) Lyle????. this would weaken it and allow it to bend easier. you could heat treat it again or have lyle build you a new improved gear at a reasonable price
Rich

--- On Thu, 7/22/10, bakerocb(at)cox.net <bakerocb(at)cox.net> wrote:

[quote]
From: bakerocb(at)cox.net <bakerocb(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: TR1 Nose Leg material
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Thursday, July 22, 2010, 11:24 AM

--> KIS-List message posted by: <bakerocb(at)cox.net>

7/22/2010

Hello Tim,

1) JJ wrote: "Does anyone know what metal the second generation (solid round bar) nose leg...."

2) Rich wrote: "There never was a solid round bar version made by Tri R...."

3) You wrote: "Anyway I'd bet my KIS that the down rod is solid 3/4" rod..."

The presumption is that JJ was asking about the angled nose landing gear strut that extends from the firewall area down to the short vertical stub when he wrote "nose leg".

Rich answered in that regard when he said that Tri R never made a "solid round bar version".

I don't think that there was any question or doubt that the short vertical stub was solid steel in all versions of the KIS TR-1 nose landing gear. Only confusion about the solidity of the angled strut portion.

'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to gather and understand knowledge."

PS: We still don't know why JJ was asking the question.

===

---


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richard_trickel(at)yahoo.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:55 am    Post subject: TR1 Nose Leg material Reply with quote

JJ
I think you can get only .188 wall material tube so your only next step is solid bar. I would try consulting someone about that. I guess bolting the lower section would work though
Rich

--- On Thu, 7/22/10, JOHN JACKSON <helixaviation(at)btinternet.com> wrote:

[quote]
From: JOHN JACKSON <helixaviation(at)btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: TR1 Nose Leg material
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Thursday, July 22, 2010, 11:11 PM

Rich and all

Thanks for the advice. I've just removed my nose leg for straightening and found the 'pin' that holds the stub into the tube.

Rather than straightening the original leg, I'm considering replacing the lower tube section by drilling out the rosette weld where it slides into the upper portion.

Any thoughts about wall thickness of the replacement lower tube? Would replacing like-for-like be the best bet or does anyone think a thicker walled tube would be stronger yet still flexible enough to take out the shock loads? Also, how about bolting the nose leg assembly back together (with suitable bushing) rather than rosette welding; this would make it easier to replace the lower portion in the future if it bends again? I'd plan to have 3 new lower sections made locally and get the whole lot, including the original mounting bracket, heat treated as per Lyles description.

Having completed 320 hours and about 750 landings (250 of which were on to grass), I'm happy that the nose leg assembly I've got is doing a good job, it's just not 'man enough' for rough fields. In future I'll stick to smooth grass strips but have some spares incase I hit an unexpected bump.

Thanks

JJ


From: Richard Trickel <richard_trickel(at)yahoo.com>
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, 22 July, 2010 13:16:54
Subject: Re: TR1 Nose Leg material

JJ
If I recall right the downtube (Lower portion of nosegear) is .156 wall 4130 that is bent to shape with a threaded plug pinned into place. This was then heat treated as per lyles discription. If you had heated it red to straighten you would indeed normalize the material to close to its original state. (donīt know the real details on normalizing) Lyle????. this would weaken it and allow it to bend easier. you could heat treat it again or have lyle build you a new improved gear at a reasonable price
Rich

--- On Thu, 7/22/10, bakerocb(at)cox.net <bakerocb(at)cox.net> wrote:

[quote]
From: bakerocb(at)cox.net <bakerocb(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: TR1 Nose Leg material
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Thursday, July 22, 2010, 11:24 AM

--> KIS-List message posted by: <bakerocb(at)cox.net>

7/22/2010

Hello Tim,

1) JJ wrote: "Does anyone know what metal the second generation (solid round bar) nose leg...."

2) Rich wrote: "There never was a solid round bar version made by Tri R...."

3) You wrote: "Anyway I'd bet my KIS that the down rod is solid 3/4" rod..."

The presumption is that JJ was asking about the angled nose landing gear strut that extends from the firewall area down to the short vertical stub when he wrote "nose leg".

Rich answered in that regard when he said that Tri R never made a "solid round bar version".

I don't think that there was any question or doubt that the short vertical stub was solid steel in all versions of the KIS TR-1 nose landing gear. Only confusion about the solidity of the angled strut portion.

'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to gather and understand knowledge."

PS: We still don't know why JJ was asking the question.

===

---


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