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Elevator Trailing Edge

 
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bakerocb



Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:59 pm    Post subject: Elevator Trailing Edge Reply with quote

8/17/2010

Hello Graham, You wrote: "...changing the elevator trailing edge from the
original stepped shape to a knife edge......"

I don't understand your words "..from the original stepped shape.." for the
elevator trailing edge.

My reading of the construction manual has the trailing edges of the top and
bottom elevator fiberglass skin moldings being glued directly to each other
as they meet. The result, looking at it from a side view, is a flat sided #
isosceles triangle with the trailing edge being the thickness of the two
fiberglass skins plus any adhesive ("a good coat of resin" in the words of
the manual) holding those edges together.*

Where does the "stepped shape" term arise from? Thanks.

'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to
gather and understand knowledge."

#PS: Flat sided being very important since I discovered (in my effort to
extend the trailing edge of the elevator) that any other shape (concave in
my original case) could result in a significant trimming effect on the
elevator.

*PS: Hence my warning against sanding the trailing edge to far forward lest
one sand away the area being held together by the resin.

====================================================
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:11 pm    Post subject: Elevator Trailing Edge Reply with quote

Hi Back OC ... Yep think i have goofed up .... The Ailerons and Flaps have a
'Stepped' trailing edge ..that obviously works fine ... But i have long
wondered how the airflow characteristics work there ... (as compared with a
more common knife edge trailing edge ... ) But due being too busy with too
much 'other stuff ' and only having a very small brain .. i mistakenly
transposed my aileron/flap puzzlement onto the Elevator trailing edge
question .
Will be at the Hanger tomorrow and will double check ...but am sure u are
rite that the elevator trailing edge is different than the other control
surface trailing edges .. Sorry for my confusion ...!

Graham


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fredorosa(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:34 pm    Post subject: Elevator Trailing Edge Reply with quote

By "stepped" I think he's referring to a squared off trailing edge (blunt).  I made my elevator with a 1/8 to 3/16 squared off trailing edge.

I don't think you should go any thicker than that.  Also, increasing the chord 1 1/2 to 2 inches is a good idea.  Best way to increase the chord is along the chord line.  See Bob Reed's web site for pics on how I did it.


Al Rosa
Al
On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 4:57 PM, <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)> wrote:
[quote]--> KIS-List message posted by: <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)>

8/17/2010

Hello Graham, You wrote: "...changing the elevator trailing edge from the original stepped shape to a knife edge......"

I don't understand your words "..from the original stepped shape.." for the elevator trailing edge.

My reading of the construction manual has the trailing edges of the top and bottom elevator fiberglass skin moldings being glued directly to each other as they meet. The result, looking at it from a side view, is a flat sided # isosceles triangle with the trailing edge being the thickness of the two fiberglass skins plus any adhesive ("a good coat of resin" in the words of the manual) holding those edges together.*

Where does the "stepped shape" term arise from? Thanks.

'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to gather and understand knowledge."

#PS: Flat sided being very important since I discovered (in my effort to extend the trailing edge of the elevator) that any other shape (concave in my original case) could result in a significant trimming effect on the elevator.

*PS: Hence my warning against sanding the trailing edge to far forward lest one sand away the area being held together by the resin.

==
---


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bakerocb



Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:40 am    Post subject: Elevator Trailing Edge Reply with quote

8/18/2010

Hello Graham, Thanks for your follow up regarding the KIS TR-1 stepped
elevator trailing edge skin surface copied below. You wrote:

1) "..Yep think i have goofed up..."

Now I don't think so. I took another look at the drawing of the elevator
trim tab cross section on page 14 (Rev 15) of the KIS TR-1 Builders Manual
and it shows very clearly a molded step in the bottom surface of the
trailing edge of the elevator skin. See the attached Hs14a.bmp file
(courtesy of Hans- Christian Erstad.)

2) "but am sure u are rite that the elevator trailing edge is different than
the other control surface trailing edges"

I won't talk to the other control surfaces, but the drawing referenced above
shows that you were right in using the term "stepped" as it applied to the
bottom surface of the trailing edge of the elevator skin.

I think that what happened in my case (and maybe some others as well --
Jesse?) is that our method of extending the trailing edge of the elevator
just obliterated that molded step and I forgot that it ever existed. My bad.

3) ".. Sorry for my confusion ...!"

Not at all, turns out that I was the one confused about no molded step in
the skin in the original configuration.

'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to
gather and understand knowledge."

========================================================
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bakerocb



Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:35 am    Post subject: Elevator Trailing Edge Reply with quote

8/18/2010

Hello Graham, Thanks for your most gracious response and the pictures. I'd
like to ask some questions / make some comments regarding the pictures:

1) In the bottom center of picture _57 there is a silver colored metal can
with a cable like projection coming out to the right and entering the
console. What is the purpose of this can?

2) On the round rotating control cross bar in this same picture there is a
short welded on bar stick out to the aft that appears to hit an angled piece
of metal fastened to the center console for the purpose of a nose up control
stick movement pitch stop.

Was this short welded on bar part of the original kit provided piece and
intended for the purpose described above?

What provides the stop for the nose down control stick movement?

This short welded on bar, as well as the welded on mounting tab for the
aileron stop bolt, did not appear on the follow on square version of the
rotating cross bar in my kit #116.

'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to
gather and understand knowledge."

PS: Beautiful workmanship and paint job shown in picture _874.

==================================================
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:33 am    Post subject: Elevator Trailing Edge Reply with quote

OC .. To answer ur queries ... The Silver Metal Can is the electric Flap
actuator motor ...its mounted on an angle so it can clear the seat ... the
drive shaft is flexible ...it isn't showing any visible signs of ware even
though it is running well out of alignment as u can see in the pic .....

The short welded on lug/stopper which provides the limit of the
stick aft travel ( when it reaches the alloy angle stopper screwed onto the
console board ) was on the a/c as i purchased it ..it all looks original ..
The throw travel of the stick fwd is provided for by the stick mounting
bracket just contacting (hitting) onto the spar tunnel ..

My TR1 was built by a US guy back in '97 .. named Duane Robinson ... It was
his last build of seven different completed a/c ...one of which was a
Helicopter ..yep truly amazing effort !!!!!!!! Later contracted Leukemia
probably from the various plastics he was working with over many yrs..
responded to treatment and was thankfully still well when i last spoke to
him 12 mths ago ...

Got out to the Hanger today and refreshed my head about the Elevator
Trailing Edge and have attached a Pic .. as the saying goes a picture
tells a thousand words ... i could have saved a lot confusion by being
clearer ... The Stepped edge i was trying to explain .... should have been
better described as ' under molded step trailing edge' or something ..!!

Can see the reason for the step ...as being a means of bringing the sandwich
skins to a junction ... and it obviously works fine ...its just that it
takes my attention and i wonder about the airflow there .. especially with
regard to effects on 'stick feel' etc on other trailing edge profiles ..

Anyway other more pressing items to deal with ..like the Engine build that
is still under way ...

Cheers
Graham


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bakerocb



Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:51 am    Post subject: Elevator Trailing Edge Reply with quote

8/19/2010

Hello Graham, Thanks for the answers. You wrote:

1) ".. named Duane Robinson.."

And a huge tip of the Baker hat to Duane. I don't recall that name coming up
previously in the KIS builders group. He must have been too busy building to
fiddle around on a computer. Duane, are you out there?

Your attached picture has generated a few more questions:

A) I don't see any rudder control cable coming out the side of the fuselage
and going to a rudder horn. How did Duane accomplish control of the rudder?

B) Also I don't see any evidence of an exposed elevator pitch trim tab
control horn. How did he accomplish control of the pitch trim tab? Duane
appears to be a very innovative and clever builder.

C) Note the round metal cover with the screw in the center that partially
fills in the opening where the elevator spar goes through the fuselage. It
appears that Duane used something like a Tinnerman A6914-1024-1 patch plate.
Right now I am searching in vain to purchase some of these to cover holes in
my wheel pants. Any ideas?

'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to
gather and understand knowledge."

=============================================================

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:22 am    Post subject: Elevator Trailing Edge Reply with quote

OC... ,
Re Query A, .. Nup no rudder cables outside the fuse ... Not sure of
the actual cable hook up back there as the 2 Batteries are mounted in the
tail and block easy view ...

B, .. Sorry can't remember the trim servo hook up
..but i will remove the cover plate and check back to u ..

C, .. Re the Tinnerman like disk .... i suspect home
fabbed up on the lathe .. Like Tim i bored out a hole about the similar size
for the tire valve access ....and used a rubber plug ( like used to
blank-off a wiring harness hole in say an auto firewall )

Sorry not more help ..

Graham


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Keith.Miller(at)esa.int
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:51 am    Post subject: Elevator Trailing Edge Reply with quote

OC
At least on Kit #079, the short welded on bar stick out to the aft that
appears to hit an angled piece
of metal, was not included on my cross control bar , but it is a clever way
of limiting the travel of the horizontal stabilizer .
|------------>
| From: |
|------------>
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|<bakerocb(at)cox.net> |
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|------------>
| To: |
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|"KIS-LIST, MATRONICS" <kis-list(at)matronics.com>, <gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au> |
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|------------>
| Date: |
|------------>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|18/08/2010 16:42 |
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
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| Subject: |
|------------>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Fw: Elevator Trailing Edge |
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
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| Sent by: |
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|owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com |
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

8/18/2010

Hello Graham, Thanks for your most gracious response and the pictures. I'd
like to ask some questions / make some comments regarding the pictures:

1) In the bottom center of picture _57 there is a silver colored metal can
with a cable like projection coming out to the right and entering the
console. What is the purpose of this can?

2) On the round rotating control cross bar in this same picture there is a
short welded on bar stick out to the aft that appears to hit an angled piece
of metal fastened to the center console for the purpose of a nose up control
stick movement pitch stop.

Was this short welded on bar part of the original kit provided piece and
intended for the purpose described above?

What provides the stop for the nose down control stick movement?

This short welded on bar, as well as the welded on mounting tab for the
aileron stop bolt, did not appear on the follow on square version of the
rotating cross bar in my kit #116.

'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to
gather and understand knowledge."

PS: Beautiful workmanship and paint job shown in picture _874.

==================================================
---


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