Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Verner Engines
Goto page 1, 2 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

dhkey(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:58 pm Post subject: Verner Engines



Verner engnies? John from the archives it looks like you tried one. How did

it work? Anyone else have an opinion of them?

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "John Williamson" <kolbrapilot2(at)comcast.net>

Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Introducions in the BBS format

Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:41:03 -0800

<kolbrapilot2(at)comcast.net>

Hey John H and All,

That young fellow is your's truly in 1970.

I like this new format and capabilities.

--------

John Williamson

Arlington, TX

Kolbra, 912ULS

Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=2583#2583

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: Verner Engines



Might be able to get your answer by asking the Kolb List how many listers are flying with a Verner.

john h

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Williamson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 146
Location: Arlington, TX

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 7:58 pm Post subject: Re: Verner Engines



David and All,

I tried a Verner 155.

I fly a Rotax 912 ULS.

That should say all that needs to be said about the Verner.

_________________
John Williamson
Arlington, TX

Kolbra, 912ULS, 1640 hours
http://home.tx.rr.com/kolbrapilot

dhkey(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:53 am Post subject: Verner Engines



thanks for the info that's all I needed to know, looked good on paper. I'll

drop it.

David.Lehman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 265
Location: "Lovely" Fresno CA

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:38 am Post subject: Re: Verner Engines



 	  John Williamson wrote: 	
		  David and All,

I tried a Verner 133.

I fly a Rotax 912 ULS.

That should say all that needs to be said about the Verner.

	


John...

I can't afford a 912 and a local has a Verner 133 for sale...

I listen to the voice of experience, what was your experience with the Verner?...

Thanx...

DVD

_________________
ô¿ô

"Both optimists and pessimists contribute to the society. The optimist invents the aeroplane, the pessimist the parachute."

--- George Bernard Shaw

John Williamson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 146
Location: Arlington, TX

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:47 am Post subject: Re: Verner Engines



Hi David and All,

The Verner 133 is heavy.

You have to engineer an exhaust.

Whatever you engineer, has to withstand a high amount of vibration, more than a Rotax 912 series engine.

The thrust line will be several inches higher than a Rotax.

It is well worth the wait to save and get yourself a Rotax 912 or 912ULS.

_________________
John Williamson
Arlington, TX

Kolbra, 912ULS, 1640 hours
http://home.tx.rr.com/kolbrapilot

David.Lehman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 265
Location: "Lovely" Fresno CA

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:51 am Post subject: Re: Verner Engines



 	  John Williamson wrote: 	
		  Hi David and All,

The Verner 133 is heavy.

You have to engineer an exhaust.

Whatever you engineer, has to withstand a high amount of vibration, more than a Rotax 912 series engine.

The thrust line will be several inches higher than a Rotax.

It is well worth the wait to save and get yourself a Rotax 912 or 912ULS. 	


Thanx John...

Good information, makes me appreciate my 503 more...

DVD

_________________
ô¿ô

"Both optimists and pessimists contribute to the society. The optimist invents the aeroplane, the pessimist the parachute."

--- George Bernard Shaw

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:00 am Post subject: Verner Engines



|Come on John W, I know you are very happy

| with the 100 hp 912 but as you told me, you didn't have a good test

of the

| Verner.

Rick N:

Getting a bad engine, out of the box, from Verner does not say much

for their product, quality control, nor reliability down the line.

Owning an engine that is not serviceable/reliable enough to accomplish

"a good test" is not what I would be looking for to keep me in the air

on down the line.

Dennis Kirby had a Verner, initially, on his MKIII. Not only was the

engine not performing as advertised, but support, service and response

to the many problems Dennis had with the Verner were not there. For

Dennis, it was a night mare, ruining his first experience with the

airplane he built. Dennis found and bought a used 912, and the smile

on his face is permanently etched. 

TNK mounted a Verner on the first MKIIIx, took it to Sun and Fun and

worked on it for a week, with factory reps assisting. If I remember

correctly, I saw it get off the ground once or maybe twice. On return

to London, KY, the Verner disappeared, never to be seen in and around

TNK.

No one is "knocking" Verner. Simply stating what I have seen and what

I have been told by a couple of reliable folks that were

owners/operators of these engines.

|Don't let these guys intimidate you into not sharing your

experience.

| Also if there are other people out there that fly other engines

please share

| you experience.

Don't think anyone is trying to intimidate Verner/Kolb owners, if they

exist on this List. Simply trying to inform folks of the history of

Verner as I know it. That is why I answered the question yesterday

with a question, "How many Verner powered Kolbs on the Kolb List.

| I fly a Redrive VW powered MKIIIc and it is working into a fairly

good

| engine with a cost of around $5500 for the power package.

|

| Rick Neilsen

Rick, a "fairly good engine" is not an engine I can be comfortable

with. Are you comfortable flying your VW powered MKIIIc? You don't

have to answer that question. I don't expect you too. Comfort with

the reliability and safety of what I fly is of utmost importance. I

do this for fun, not for pay. When it ceases to be fun, I quit.

Take care,

john h

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:17 am Post subject: Re: Verner Engines



Gang:

Let's see if we can find anyone who owns and is flying an aircraft powered with a Verner. If we can, let's ask them to give us an honest and unbiased report of their engines performance, reliability, serviceability, and support from Verner.

john h

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

David.Lehman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 265
Location: "Lovely" Fresno CA

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:01 am Post subject: Re: Verner Engines



 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  Gang:

Let's see if we can find anyone who owns and is flying an aircraft powered with a Verner. If we can, let's ask them to give us an honest and unbiased report of their engines performance, reliability, serviceability, and support from Verner.

john h 	


Well John, I suppose this is a major "DUH!", but the local engine is available because he replaced the Verner on his GT500 with a new Jabiru...

DVD

_________________
ô¿ô

"Both optimists and pessimists contribute to the society. The optimist invents the aeroplane, the pessimist the parachute."

--- George Bernard Shaw

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:05 am Post subject: Re: Verner Engines

Dave: Might find out what his thoughts and experiences with the Verner were. However, he's in the selling mode and doubt he is going to be 100% open about it.

Understand replacing with a Jab, direct drive, on an Eiper GT500???

john h

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

David.Lehman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 265
Location: "Lovely" Fresno CA

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:17 am Post subject: Re: Verner Engines



 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  Dave: Might find out what his thoughts and experiences with the Verner were. However, he's in the selling mode and doubt he is going to be 100% open about it.

Understand replacing with a Jab, direct drive, on an Eiper GT500???

john h 	


John...

You're correct about the seller/buyer information highway sometimes being a little biased... Supposedly, he was disappointed with a cooling problem on the Verner...

And you're also correct, it's a Jabiru 2200 on a Quicksilver GT500...

We have an ambitious Jabiru dealer in town and there are several (2200s and 3300s) flying in the area...

Thanx...

DVD

_________________
ô¿ô

"Both optimists and pessimists contribute to the society. The optimist invents the aeroplane, the pessimist the parachute."

--- George Bernard Shaw

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:51 pm Post subject: Re: Verner Engines



 	  David.Lehman wrote: 	
		  [Well John, I suppose this is a major "DUH!", but the local engine is available because he replaced the Verner on his GT500 with a new Jabiru...

DVD 	


Hahaha, not to bright a guy, he went from buying a horrible engine to buying a mediocre engine...

The Roatx 912S is a far superrior engine to either of those. I would save for as long as it takes to get a great engine rather than throw away what you have on something you will never be happy with.

Michael A. Bigelow

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:53 pm Post subject: Re: Verner Engines



 	  David.Lehman wrote: 	
		  [Well John, I suppose this is a major "DUH!", but the local engine is available because he replaced the Verner on his GT500 with a new Jabiru...

DVD 	


Hahaha, not to bright a guy, he went from buying a horrible engine to buying a mediocre engine...

The Roatx 912S is a far superrior engine to either of those. I would save for as long as it takes to get a great engine rather than throw away what you have on something you will never be happy with.

Michael A. Bigelow

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

rsanoa

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 71
Location: Bell Buckle,TN

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:47 pm Post subject: Verner Engines

I keep my UltraStar just about 400 - 500 feet from the Jabiru 'factory' or US distribution facility now located on the Shelbyville, TN airport. It's here that customers can come and assemble their aircraft with the Jabiru engines. It's a great looking combination and there is a couple of customers assembling every day. I believe it takes about two weeks and is licensed as homebuilt with the customer doing a little over 50% of the work to be legal. This has been going on now for about 8-10 months and a lot of them have flown away with happy owners. I don't know of any that have come back or reported trouble, so the Jabiru engine can't be too mediocre. There seems to be a line up of customers waiting for a spot to build and fly. Business is so good that Jabiru has asked for a new building twice as large. They are getting ready to produce a two cylinder version of the engine.

_________________
Ray S.Anderson

John Williamson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 146
Location: Arlington, TX

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: Verner Engines



The Verner 133 engine might be great on a trike or powered parachute but it didn't seem to be very good on a Kolb Kolbra.

As for the Jabiru 2200 engine, it's a great little engine and works very well in the right application.

The Jabiru airplanes were made to optimize the performance of the Jabiru engine.

Yes, a Jabiru will work on a Kolb. I have over 500 hours flying a Jabiru 2200 engine on my Kolbra but it was not the correct engine for the Kolbra.

You can engineer any engine to fit on any Kolb but the chance of getting the best performance out of the engine and airframe is just that, a chance.

For half the price of a Rotax 912 you can fly 70 to 80 mph. With the 912 you can fly 80 to 90 mph all day long.

When my wife asked what was in the last Rotax engine box that was delivered to my garage, I just responded "Insurance." She understood completely what I was talking about.

_________________
John Williamson
Arlington, TX

Kolbra, 912ULS, 1640 hours
http://home.tx.rr.com/kolbrapilot

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:12 pm Post subject: Verner Engines



Kolbers,

I was curious as to why the Verner seems to have such a bad reputation. I

stumbled across the following site:

http://www.bmaa.info/upload/techdocs/20041061154110.Hm01 22.pdf

BRITISH MICROLIGHT AIRCRAFT ASSOCIATION

HOMEBUILT AIRCRAFT DATA SHEET (HADS)

NO: HM1 ISSUE: 22

This is a data sheet for an XAir (UK), and was put together in 2004.

There is an interesting table on the bottom of page five. The BMWR100RS was

fitted with Rotax C gear boxes and a comparison can be made to the Verner

133M. For the C boxes listed with the 3.0:1 ratio and the Verner all

recommended propeller sizes were 68 inches. But the Rotax gear boxes could

swing a three blade propeller while only a two blade propeller was recommend

for the Verner. This indicates the Verner engine gearbox was not designed

to handle high inertia propellers.

The report last page contains a table that compares X'Air aircraft

performance using the Rotax 582, Jabiru 2.2, Simonini V2, HKS700E, Rotax

912, and Verner 133M engines.

This data sheet indicates that all of the above engines can be used safely

on the X'Air. Which engine you select depends on your desire for

performance and the size of your pocket book. Pretty much the same can be

said for Kolb designs.

Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: Verner Engines



 	  jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne wrote: 	
		  Kolbers,

I was curious as to why the Verner seems to have such a bad reputation.

The report last page contains a table that compares X'Air aircraft

performance using the Rotax 582, Jabiru 2.2, Simonini V2, HKS700E, Rotax 912, and Verner 133M engines.

This data sheet indicates that all of the above engines can be used safely

on the X'Air. Which engine you select depends on your desire for

performance and the size of your pocket book. Pretty much the same can be

said for Kolb designs.

Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN 	


The data sheet says that any of those engines fit the power, weight, etc. parameters for the airplane... So they are saying that particular airplane will safely fly with any of those engines. That does NOT mean that those engines are all equal, or even that they are good engines....

As to why the verner has such a bad reputation, because its a really crapppy engine....

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

neilsenrmf(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:57 pm Post subject: Verner Engines



John/All

I got this note from another member of the list. It expresses much better

some of what I was trying to say so I decided to share the following with

the group.

<<<<I won't stick my neck into the line of fire but from a mature point of

view engine, airplane, and all sorts of other stuff comes down to a

matter of priorities. -Could I write a check for a new 912, well yes,

and I most likely would not miss it, but then that's not the way I do

things.

I look at all the OTHER stuff I can do with what I save. Some of these

builders have put $30,000 into their Kolb. I doubt I have more than

$12,000 in mine and I have a low time 4 stroke machine ready for some

serious flying. My father set me straight on point of view, as what's

good

for one guy isn't the same for another.>>>>>>

As stated above I too could write a check for a Rotax 912 but I won't. If I

was going to do the kind of flying the Johns do it would be worth it to me

but I don't. For the kind of flat land flying I do my VW is just fine. The

other part of my madness is that I'm attempting to refine the VW engine

package so that it can be almost as reliable as a Rotax 912 but with a MUCH

lower price tag.

Also some of the comments I'm seeing on the list aren't very constructive. I

still haven't heard any evaluation on a Verner engine (statistics or facts

not just hear say) (May be John W but he never flew it) and we are getting

comments such as "Crappy" or "Hahaha, not to bright a guy, he went from

buying a horrible engine to buying a mediocre engine..." Remember Verner has

made at least two different engines and maybe the newer engines are better.

Just because you guys spent those big bucks doesn't it is right for

everyone. Please keep a open mind and allow others to contribute.

Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIc

---

FS2Kolb(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:35 pm Post subject: Verner Engines

God Bless America, where we can do what we want with our Kolbs

 

 

In a message dated 1/11/2006 10:58:04 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,  

neilsenrmf(at)comcast.net writes:




<neilsenrmf(at)comcast.net>



John/All



I got this note from  another member of the list. It expresses much better 

some of what I was  trying to say so I decided to share the following with 

the  group.

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum