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Verner Engines
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Kirk Smith



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 78
Location: SE Michigan

PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:52 am    Post subject: Verner Engines Reply with quote

One of the things about the Verner engine that made me hesitant was the hp
per cylinder. They are getting 40 hp/cyl. Everything else that I was aware
of in the 80-100 hp range gets from 15-25 hp/cyl. Jump up to the O-320
Lycomings and then there's 40 hp/cyl but this is a much more massive engine
than a Verner. Just seemed to me they were over stressing that little
engine.
I'd like to see how a Jabiru 2200 would perform on a Kolb with a gear
reduction unit so a larger prop could be spun.

Do not archive


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:29 am    Post subject: Verner Engines Reply with quote

At 07:34 PM 1/11/06 -0800, you wrote:
Quote:


The data sheet says that any of those engines fit the power, weight, etc. parameters for the airplane... So they are saying that particular airplane will safely fly with any of those engines. That does NOT mean that those engines are all equal, or even that they are good engines....

As to why the verner has such a bad reputation, because its a really crapppy engine....

Michael,

Do you have personal experience with the Verner?

The same can be said about any engine, such as, a Model T and Model A Ford
that are flying in Pietenpols. The plane was designed around the engine.
These people are not crazy. They just like the idea, sound, feel and smell
of the engine in flight.

I found the Rotax 447 to be very uncivil and I changed engines to something
I thought would be better. And so far, except for a few coolant leaks that
were my fault, it has been a very good engine.

There are so many "good" engines out there that never make it to market.
The market place determines what is a good engine. The trick is to match
the engine to the plane and to meet the owner's expectations and desire for
performance too. If an engine does not work out, one can build a plane on
which it will work well, adapt it to some non-aircraft use, sell it to
someone else, or use it for a boat anchor.

I am sure that there are those out there that love their HKS, Hirth, and yes
even the Verner engine.

Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN


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John Hauck



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:55 am    Post subject: Verner Engines Reply with quote

| I got this note from another member of the list. It expresses much
better
| some of what I was trying to say so I decided to share the following
with
| the group.
|
| <<<<I won't stick my neck into the line of fire but from a mature
point of
| view engine, airplane, and all sorts of other stuff comes down to a
| matter of priorities.

| As stated above I too could write a check for a Rotax 912 but I
won't. If I
| was going to do the kind of flying the Johns do it would be worth it
to me
| but I don't. For the kind of flat land flying I do my VW is just
fine.

| Rick Neilsen

Rick and your anonymous friend/All:

I'm not trying to sell Rotax, nor am I bad mouthing the Verner. The
question was: "Does anyone have any info on the Verner." I tried to
share that info in a "mature" manner, based on observations and
reports from owners/operators. Reread the post I addressed to you
yesterday, please.

I'm not trying to talk anybody into or out of anything. I figure they
are mature enough to be flying, they are mature enough to choose the
airplane and powerplant they wish to fly.

I would like to share a thought on flying. Most accidents occur
within the local flying area. Local flying is no safer or easier than
cross country flying. Most aircraft accidents happen in the local
flying area. Flat land flying doesn't exempt anyone from the hazards
of flying. Gravity is not prejudice. Treats everyone the same, no
matter what the geographic location. And...............the ground is
hard, whether Rocky Mountains or a flat farm field in Michigan. And
the water is just as wet.

My priorities and requirements for flying are to be as safe and
comfortable with my hobby as possible. That's my priorities. Like
someone said a few minutes ago: God bless America where we can do
what we want with our Kolbs. I for one, sure agree with that
statement. NOTE: Please identify yourselves. Most Kolb folks like
to know who they are talking to, as a matter of courtesy. Also, Matt
Dralle asked that we use our first and last name for ID.

Folks, no need to go back copy with comments that should be aired on
the List. The List doesn't learn anything from what we can not share.
I'm still looking for the firing line, and/or the line of fire. When
somebody finds it, let me know. Smile

Personally, I could care less what anyone flies on their Kolbs.
However, I have been flying Kolbs for a while and I think what I am
flying and have been flying is the best there is to offer. No matter
what one chooses to use for power, please be careful, and share your
experiences with us, so we can learn too. Because I also like to
share my experiences, does not mean I do not want to learn about
yours. I believe I have as much right to express my experiences,
strengths, and hopes, on the Kolb List as anyone else. Everyone on
the Kolb List is created equal!!! Some of us have more experience
than others. Can't change that. That also means some of us have
broken more airplanes than others too. hehehe Hope we learn from it
all.

Take care,

john h


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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama
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John Williamson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 146
Location: Arlington, TX

PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:17 am    Post subject: Re: Verner Engines Reply with quote

Hi Rick and All,

I flew the Verner 133.

I just don't advertise that I flew it because it was such a BAD experience.

Cheap is not always a bad way to go. Expensive is not always the best way to go.

I tried a cheap engine and I got a cheap engine.

I tried an expensive engine and got a very reliable engine.


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Arlington, TX

Kolbra, 912ULS, 1640 hours
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neilsenrmf(at)comcast.net
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:19 am    Post subject: Verner Engines Reply with quote

John

That's fine but BAD is rather subjective. Was there allot of vibration, lack
of thrust (more or less than the Jabiru), high temps, high fuel burn, good
or bad climb, slow or fast cruise etc. Please give us something we can
evaluate(more or less than the Jabiru and/or 912). I assume you are
referring to the replacement engine?

Most of us aren't A & Es but if the price was right maybe your BAD would be
FINE??????

John I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass. You are the only one that has
had this experience or at least telling us they did. Please, I would like
the details.

Do not archive

Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIc
---


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Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:56 am    Post subject: Verner Engines Reply with quote

Rick Neilsen wrote: << I still haven't heard any evaluation on a Verner
engine (statistics or facts not just hear say) ... Please keep a open mind
and allow others to contribute. >>

Kolb Friends -

This thread began when David Key asked the simple question, "Whaddaya all
think about the Verner engine?" As a former Verner owner on my Kolb, I feel
obliged to pass on my experiences.

Most of you might recall that I originally built my Mark-III with a
Verner-1400 80 hp engine. Because of reliability issues with the Verner, I
replaced it this past summer with a 912ul. Although the engine itself ran
beautifully, the reduction drive unit was experiencing some kind of
torsional harmonic vibration that was causing the prop hub bolts to fail on
a regular (every 6 hours of flight time) basis.

Although the US distributor from whom I purchased this engine has put
forth exceptional effort in working with me by replacing the broken
parts and trying to help me solve the problem, we were getting
zero support or help from the factory in Czech Republic.

I'm presently very happy with my Rotax-912. I'm sure there are Verner
engines out there that have accumulated hundreds of hours of trouble-free
service for their owners. Unfortunately for me, mine was not one of them.

Dennis Kirby
1996 Mark-III, "Magic Bike" in
Cedar Crest, NM


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kiwimick



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 25
Location: ENGLAND

PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:45 pm    Post subject: Verner Engines Reply with quote

Jack/All,
I think thae HADS for the X-Air sums it up.
Remember speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?.
My Xtra with NEW type Jab 2200 cruises at 75kt all day long (approx 84mph I
think it is) more if I open the tap up< considering the price difference to
the 912 I think I can live with the minute speed difference, and feel happy
about the much simpler engine turning much slower than all other
installations and the muck lighter weight than the other 4 strokers.

Mike
Xtra/New type Jab with big prop
135hrs of purring at no more than 3100 rpm
---


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 2:32 pm    Post subject: Verner Engines Reply with quote

Speaking of the Jabiru,
I can make at least a 2nd hand report. A local has a 2200 on an older
MarkIII. He has about 400 hours on it so far without any problems.
It performs surprisingly well with the little direct drive prop, and seems
not to overheat on the ground with the pusher configuration (he has the
scoops mounted up top). Not sure how that works but it does.

The only drawbacks I can see are the fact that its cost is nearly the same
as a 912 all said and done, and is restricted a bit in terms of prop size
due to the direct drive and 3100 rpm or so max power output speed.

But I can't argue with the results he's getting. I"m kind of a Rotax
shellback and would get a 912 myself, especially since the costs are
similar, but the jab definitely looks like a good reliable motor...

LS
N646F

[quote]Jack/All,
I think thae HADS for the X-Air sums it up.
Remember speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?.
My Xtra with NEW type Jab 2200 cruises at 75kt all day long (approx 84mph I
think it is) more if I open the tap up< considering the price difference to
the 912 I think I can live with the minute speed difference, and feel happy
about the much simpler engine turning much slower than all other
installations and the muck lighter weight than the other 4 strokers.

Mike
Xtra/New type Jab with big prop
135hrs of purring at no more than 3100 rpm
---


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John Williamson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 146
Location: Arlington, TX

PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Verner Engines Reply with quote

Rick and All,

When I say "BAD," that means that I wouldn't want to be flying in the same vicinity of an aircraft with the Verner 133.

I said it had a terrible vibration.

It was 78 hp verse 80 hp on the Jabiru it was going to replace.

I could mount a 3 blade Warp Drive prop instead of the 2 blade Warp Drive prop on the Jabiru.

With the gearbox on the Verner 133, it had more torque than the Jabiru with the direct drive.

I only flew it long enough to know that I did not want to fly it any more and put the Jabiru back on the Kolbra. Sometimes you just "Know" that something isn't right.

You can't compare the performance of the Verner 133 to the Jabiru or the Rotax 912 ULS because the engines are so different in performance capabilities and their intented applications.

As for engine support: Rotax is supported by a long list of retailers. The Verner has three reps that I know of and the one I bought mine from was worthless. The Jabiru has three dealers here in the USA that I know of. I bought mine from Pete, who is now in TN, and supported me every time I called him.

The maintenance schedule on the Jabiru was one of my big deciding factors to look for something else. The tappet check and headbolt retorque every 25 hours gets old real quick when you fly 50 hours on a two week trip and have to do them in the middle of no-where.


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Arlington, TX

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JetPilot



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Verner Engines Reply with quote

neilsenrmf(at)comcast.net wrote:


Also some of the comments I'm seeing on the list aren't very constructive. I still haven't heard any evaluation on a Verner engine (statistics or facts not just hear say) (May be John W but he never flew it) and we are getting comments such as ...

Remember Verner has
made at least two different engines and maybe the newer engines are better.


Most of us can read about others experiences and make a really good, educated judgement about an engine. If you need an "evaluation" with "statistics" then you are going to miss the obvious. After what I have read about verner engines, I would not even waste my time on the numbers of that engine... Most of the reports from users of that engine will give me far better information on what its like to own and operate that engine than "evaluations" and "statitiscs" ever will. Idea

"Maybe the newer engines are better"
I would never buy from a manufacturer that has a horrible record just on the hopes that " Maybe the newer engines are better". That is just asking for it Shocked

"The engine matches the airplane"

The Rotax 912 seems to match everything, Kolbs, Diamond, Kitfox, Air Force Predator, Trikes, the list is endless. In the end, the Rotax 912S is just a great engine that will work no matter what you put it on. Inferrior engines will only work on a very small range of applications. Again, the quality and design of the engine determines how many applications it will work on, and the Rotax 912 wins hands down.

In the end, its just a question if you want to spend the money or not. Not everyone can afford the 912, I have been there, and I totally respect that... But as poor as I was before, I never forgot what was the superior engine and what I would one day buy. Mr. Green

Michael A. Bigelow


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:31 am    Post subject: Verner engines Reply with quote

Ha ! Who needs a Verner when there are plenty of Cuyuna's still flying...
sissy boys....
Ed in Western NY


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rsanoa



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 71
Location: Bell Buckle,TN

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:54 am    Post subject: Verner engines Reply with quote

Right on Edward !!!!

Just had a thought. Back a few years, when Cuyuna's were the engine for snowmobiles, how many snowmobilers were stranded and died because their trusty Cuyunas let them down? Never heard of one.
Ray .... TN
UltraStar (CUYUNA)
Do not archive

Edward Steuber <esteuber(at)rochester.rr.com> wrote:


Ha ! Who needs a Verner when there are plenty of Cuyuna's still flying...
sissy boys....
Ed in Western NY





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Kirk Smith



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 78
Location: SE Michigan

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:27 am    Post subject: Verner engines Reply with quote

Just had a thought. Back a few years, when Cuyuna's were the
engine for snowmobiles,
how many snowmobilers were stranded and died because their trusty
Cuyunas let them down?
Never heard of one.
Quote:
Ray .... TN

That's only cuz there was an Artic cat there to tow em home.....:>)

Do not
archive


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kiwimick



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 25
Location: ENGLAND

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:41 pm    Post subject: Verner Engines Reply with quote

All, Jabs are now 85hp and tappetts are hydralulic so never have to be
adjusted.

Mike
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