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jindoguy(at)gmail.com
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 Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:09 am Post subject: Engine ideas (sleepless night) |
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All this talking about an O-200 on the Mk III got me thinking in the middle
of the night. I have a couple of Lycoming O-290G (ground power unit engine)
in my shop. Way too heavy for the Mk III but what if it were cut down to a
two cylinder? Yeah, a lot of work to make a billet crank case for it, and
there would be some other issues, but it might make an interesting project
this winter. Get rid of the mags and use an electronic ignition, use a VW H=
i
Perf oil pump and get rid of the expensive Lyc unit. Unlike the Conti, the
Lyc uses a starter that doesn't go through the accessory gear drive and wit=
h
a 122 ring gear you can run an inexpensive (and much lighter) HonToyNisMa
starter. Hmmm.
Okay, gotta take the less powerful antihistamine tabs tonight and get some
sleep.
--
Rick Girard
"Pining for a home on the Range"
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:35 am Post subject: Engine ideas (sleepless night) |
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Morning Gang:
Thinking out loud again. Not to ruffle anyone's feathers, especially
the Kolb Alternative Engine Group.
I got my start with Kolb Aircraft more than 22 years ago. With the
exception of the Cuyuna ULII02 on the Ultrastar, Kolb aircraft have
been powered by Rotax engines. The only other engine to come close to
the Rotax, 2 and 4 stroke, was the direct drive Jabiru on John W's
Kolbra. His Jab was adequate, but did not do the Kolbra justice.
Hence, the 912ULS now powers the JW Kolbra.
Verner hasn't made much of a hit.
VW hasn't either, to be honest. Rick Neilsen is flying one on his
MKIII.
Geo/Suzuki will push a MKIII quick enough to fly. Bob Bean has one on
his MKIII.
Not to forget Jack Hart's Vitorini (sp). Haven't seen a run on Kolbs
powered by this engine.
Hirth is out there on Kolbs, but I don't hear much about them either.
I assume they do perform well with comparable power output to the
Rotax 2 stroke.
To be honest, I don't have personal experience with any of the
alternative engines, except the Cuyuna, which was my first power unit
on my very first airplane, a 1984 Ultrastar.
Please to not read anything into what I am thinking and sharing with
the List. I am not saying, "Do not pursue alternative power plants
for Kolbs." Simply saying, "So far, we have not been able to come up
with something equal to or better than Rotax to power Kolbs. Anything
less, at this time, is an injustice to the Kolb and its popular
performance.
Personally, I would love to have an alternative to the 912ULS I now
fly. If I could find an alternative at half the price of a new
912ULS, it would still be an expensive engine.
However, based on the nature of our sport, I want the best possible to
make my sport fun, safe, comfortable, and reliable. Anything less
takes the key element, "fun" out of the loop. No pun intended. If it
ain't fun, then it must be work or worse.
On my way to Indianapolis, IN, and Hampton, IA, this morning and
tomorrow. There is a 1936 Farmall
F-20 waiting for me at the end of the line. Picked a hell of a time
to go, weather looks very wet from here to there and return. Like
flying and weather, I have to take whatever the Man sends me for that
day.
Take care, see ya in four or five days,
john h
mkIII
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_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:43 am Post subject: Engine ideas (sleepless night) |
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With the
| exception of the Cuyuna ULII02 on the Ultrastar, Kolb aircraft have
| been powered by Rotax engines.
I know, I know, I forgot the Kolb Flyer powered by Solo, Chrysler, and
whatever Homer could find on the back shelf. Don't think I want to
try them though.
john h
hauck's holler, alabama
PS: Shutting down, for real, this time.......................
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_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:25 am Post subject: Engine ideas (sleepless night) |
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At 08:36 AM 4/30/06 -0500, you wrote:
| Quote: |
Morning Gang:
Not to forget Jack Hart's Vitorini (sp). Haven't seen a run on Kolbs
powered by this engine.
...............................................>
|
| Quote: | Please to not read anything into what I am thinking and sharing with
the List. I am not saying, "Do not pursue alternative power plants
for Kolbs." Simply saying, "So far, we have not been able to come up
with something equal to or better than Rotax to power Kolbs. Anything
less, at this time, is an injustice to the Kolb and its popular
performance.
........................................>
|
| Quote: | However, based on the nature of our sport, I want the best possible to
make my sport fun, safe, comfortable, and reliable. Anything less
takes the key element, "fun" out of the loop. No pun intended. If it
ain't fun, then it must be work or worse.
..
|
John,
I cannot assume to speak for all who have or are mounting non Rotax engines
on other Kolb designs. But I have experience with both a Rotax 447 and the
Simonini Victor 1+ on a FireFly, I feel I can counter the statement, "So
far, we have not been able to come up with something equal to or better than
Rotax to power Kolbs." As far as I am concerned the Victor 1 is far
superior to the 447. It always starts on the first or second turn over,
idles smoothly at or below 2,000 rpm, is much quieter, and burns from 1.5 to
1.0 gph less than the 447 at the same cruise speeds.
Mounting the Victor 1+ was not easy, but it has immeasurably improved the
quality of my flight time.
Have a good trip.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
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Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:51 am Post subject: Engine ideas (sleepless night) |
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So what does Simonini get for a Victor 2 with their C box?
7 liters an hour at 5200 rpm is better than my 582.
And 92 hp on climbout wouldn't hurt either.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Jack B. Hart wrote:
| Quote: |
<snip>
I cannot assume to speak for all who have or are mounting non Rotax engines
on other Kolb designs. But I have experience with both a Rotax 447 and the
Simonini Victor 1+ on a FireFly, I feel I can counter the statement, "So
far, we have not been able to come up with something equal to or better than
Rotax to power Kolbs." As far as I am concerned the Victor 1 is far
superior to the 447. It always starts on the first or second turn over,
idles smoothly at or below 2,000 rpm, is much quieter, and burns from 1.5 to
1.0 gph less than the 447 at the same cruise speeds.
Mounting the Victor 1+ was not easy, but it has immeasurably improved the
quality of my flight time.
Have a good trip.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
|
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_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. |
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DAquaNut(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 3:32 pm Post subject: Engine ideas (sleepless night) |
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In a message dated 4/30/2006 10:26:22 A.M. Central Standard Time,
jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net writes:
As far as I am concerned the Victor 1 is far
superior to the 447. It always starts on the first or second turn over,
idles smoothly at or below 2,000 rpm, is much quieter, and burns from 1.5 to
1.0 gph less than the 447 at the same cruise speeds.
Mounting the Victor 1+ was not easy, but it has immeasurably improved the
quality of my flight time.
Have a good trip.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Jack,
I seem to be getting 1 hour and 45 min of flight time on 5
gallons. Does that sound about the same as you got with your 447? Seems like I
went 41 miles at 65 mph and burned about 2 and 3/4 gallons. I was thinking
the 447 has a safe range of 50 or 60 miles and have a gallon or so left. What
did you consider a safe range with your 447, and now with the victor 1+ with
minimal headwind?
Ed (firefly #62)
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jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 5:15 am Post subject: Engine ideas (sleepless night) |
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Ed,
The best I could do was about 70 miles with the 447, and I had to put it on the ground. 447 averge for nine round trips from Perryville Municipal to Painton, MO and back was 3.1 gph.
Last summer, I flew several 100 to 110 mile loops from Winchester where I landed at at least two other airports. In each instance, I calculated I could make it back to Winchester with out adding fuel. But it would have been cutting it very close. So, I added 100 LL at the last stop and to be comfortable during last leg home. A poor guess on the wind could have emptied the gas tank.
I have been working on leaning out the Victor 1+. I am plotting the points so I can keep track of the needle position, jet sizes, etc. so that I can figure out what my next move should be. Before every test flight a spark plug is removed to check that the engine was not running too lean during the previous flight. Then new needle seems to be very good at 5,200 rpm and lower. But as one moves to the higher rpms, the EGT starts to drop and the Bing goes rich. I calculated the fuel flow area between the needle and needle jet at the lowest throttle opening at which the engine reachs maximum rpm and found that the main jet is much too large. I have ordered some smaller main jets in an attempt to lean out the Bing and to increase the EGT above 5,200 rpm.
The last test was run at 5,200 rpm and the calculated fuel flow rate was 1.91 gph. Air speed was gps average of 52 mph. This fuel flow rate is conservative as the total fuel consumed includes, engine warm up, taxi in and out, takeoff and approach rpms with a constant cruise rpm. The timer is tripped as the takeoff roll starts and is tripped again at touch down. Fuel volume is read with the FireFly in the same fixed position in the hangar. Based on this performance the FireFly could be flown 109 miles with a one gallon reserve, or 122 miles with a half gallon reserve.
Raining here today. A good day to re-assemble the FireFly.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
| Quote: | I seem to be getting 1 hour and 45 min of flight time on 5
gallons. Does that sound about the same as you got with your 447? Seems like I
went 41 miles at 65 mph and burned about 2 and 3/4 gallons. I was thinking
the 447 has a safe range of 50 or 60 miles and have a gallon or so left. What
did you consider a safe range with your 447, and now with the victor 1+ with
minimal headwind?
Ed (firefly #62)
|
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John Jung
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 108
Location: Surprise, AZ, USA
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 7:43 am Post subject: Re: Engine ideas (sleepless night) |
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| Richard Pike wrote: | | So what does Simonini get for a Victor 2 with their C box? |
Jack or anyone,
I also am interested in more information about the Victor 1 and 2. The 2 would give my Firestar a nice cruise speed, and the weight appears to be O.K. But I could not find price or even availability.
Where did you get your Victor? And, how does the power compare with the 447? Do they exaggerate the HP?
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_________________
John Jung
Firestar II N6163J
Surprise, AZ |
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ulflyer(at)verizon.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 9:50 pm Post subject: Engine ideas (sleepless night) |
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|
Hi Ed, Jerry here. On our Fire Fly 447 we planned for an hour and 30
minutes and then got real serious about getting it on the
ground. Not much reserve. Looks like were both experiencing about
the same fuel burn.
jerb
At 06:30 PM 4/30/2006, you wrote:
| Quote: |
In a message dated 4/30/2006 10:26:22 A.M. Central Standard Time,
jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net writes:
As far as I am concerned the Victor 1 is far
superior to the 447. It always starts on the first or second turn over,
idles smoothly at or below 2,000 rpm, is much quieter, and burns from 1.5 to
1.0 gph less than the 447 at the same cruise speeds.
Mounting the Victor 1+ was not easy, but it has immeasurably improved the
quality of my flight time.
Have a good trip.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Jack,
I seem to be getting 1 hour and 45 min of flight time on 5
gallons. Does that sound about the same as you got with your
447? Seems like I
went 41 miles at 65 mph and burned about 2 and 3/4 gallons. I was thinking
the 447 has a safe range of 50 or 60 miles and have a gallon or so
left. What
did you consider a safe range with your 447, and now with the victor 1+ with
minimal headwind?
Ed (firefly #62)
|
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