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mjpienaar(at)shaw.ca
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 Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:12 am Post subject: Brake Lines/tubing |
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Hi All,
What type of tubing should I use for my brakes? I was thinking of flexible lines from the master cylinders to a manifold and then solid metal lines to a point 12 to 18 inches from the wheel and then flexible lines to the wheel again. Can I use aluminum tubing and if yes what grade.
Has anybody used part No 11-03854 (link below) from aircraft spruce to secure wires and tubing? What adhesive would you suggest and would double sided tape work.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/cabletiemounts.php
Thanks
Mike
[quote][b]
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mantafs(at)earthlink.net
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| Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:15 pm Post subject: Brake Lines/tubing |
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Hi Mike,
Many people use 3003 aluminum tube for brake lines. I have used this on boat trailers all the way to the calipers. To allow for the suspension movement I just put an about 1 foot diameter loop so that suspension movement moves the loop like a clock spring. Since our suspension is the aluminum landing gear leg I do not think any flexible tubing is needed at the gear leg so the aluminum tube can go directly to the caliper. I think you will need flexible tube at the master cylinders.
I have never bought the cable tie mounts from ACS. Their price seems very expensive! They have something that looks the same at Lowes and Home Depot. Those I have used and they hold and work very well for up to about 5 to 10 years. Then they fall off. They come with their own double sticky foam tape already attached. Of course if you add a screw or two then they do not fall off.
They are quick to use but I think there are longer lasting methods. For example a small patch of fiberglass with a fold sticking up forming a small tab. Once cured drill a hole in the tab and cable tie using the hole. You can also drill two small holes next the each other only through the inner skin. Then push the cable tie in one hole and out the other. If need you can add a doubler (small patch of fiberglass) before you drill the holes. You can also back fill the hole with silicone if you are worried about water.
Mark
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sstearns2(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:17 pm Post subject: Brake Lines/tubing |
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Hi Mike,
Those adhesive backed things are a waste of time. I have a bag of 100 if you want them.
For a threaded hardpoint I'd use these and glass them in... I must have 50 of them in my airplane.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/ezpoint.php
I used 5052-0 AL 1/4" tubing for the brake lines. It's stong enough to handle the pressure but soft enough so you can work it easily. You can use it all the way from the interior floor to the brake caliper since there is little relative movement. Make sure to inspect it well at annuals for cracks though.
I used Aeroquip 303 hose from the interior floor to the brake clyinders. You have buy the mandrel tool to make the hoses, but it's not hard once you see how it works. Any A&P book will have instructions or they are online somewhere I'm sure. Also once you learn to make real aircraft hoses you can make your own oil and fuel hoses for the engine too. I also mounted the brake fluid resevior on the back of the firewall higher than the brake cylinders. It's easy to see with a flashlight and you normally don't need to touch it since fluid is normally added at the caliper.
Please don't use any plastic tubing for the brakes.
Cheers,
Scott
--- On Thu, 9/30/10, Mike Pienaar <mjpienaar(at)shaw.ca> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: Mike Pienaar <mjpienaar(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Brake Lines/tubing
To: "KISBUILDERS" <kis-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: Thursday, September 30, 2010, 9:10 AM
Hi All,
What type of tubing should I use for my brakes? I was thinking of flexible lines from the master cylinders to a manifold and then solid metal lines to a point 12 to 18 inches from the wheel and then flexible lines to the wheel again. Can I use aluminum tubing and if yes what grade.
Has anybody used part No 11-03854 (link below) from aircraft spruce to secure wires and tubing? What adhesive would you suggest and would double sided tape work.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/cabletiemounts.php
Thanks
Mike
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llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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bakerocb
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:24 pm Post subject: Brake Lines/tubing |
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9/30/2010
Hello Mike, You wrote:
1) "What type of tubing should I use for my brakes?"
Back in 1999 I wrote a doctoral thesis on this subject in the form of some
responses to other's postings (usually Ted's). Copied below from the
archives for you to wade through if you like is a copy of that thesis which
was reposted on 12/01/00.
Please let me know if you have any questions.
2) "Has anybody used part No 11-03854 (link below) from aircraft spruce to
secure wires and tubing? What adhesive would you suggest and would double
sided tape work."
Definitely don't use double sided tape -- with heat and the passage of time
it will fail. I recommend that you do a google search and locate a source of
screw fastening cable tie mounts with no intstalled mounting adhesive --
there are many available from many different sources such as this:
http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=9110250
Then to fasten these cable tie mounts in place I recommend that you rough up
the nylon base then glue them into position with epoxy gel cement. Here is a
good epoxy to use:
http://www.tapplastics.com/shop/product.php?pid=338
'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to
gather and understand knowledge."
=================================================
Match: #128Message: #11042From: BAKEROCB(at)aol.comDate: Dec 01,
2000Subject: Re: e: Brakeline transition-alu to plastic?
12/01/00
Hello Ted, This subject was chewed over a bit a while back, both from a
performance and material view point. I'll repeat some of those postings on
the chance that they may be of some help to you. OC
Subj: Brake Plumbing
Date: 10/06/1999
To: kisbuilders(at)angus.mystery.com
10/6/99
In a message dated 10/03/1999 8:22:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
tmclam(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us writes:
| Quote: | I noticed in the Aircraft Spruce cat. that the supplied Polyflo brake
tubing
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| Quote: | and Nylo Seal tubing are compatable with 3/16 OD Polyflo brass
fittings.
That is that if 3/16 tubing was supplied instead of 1/4 in. OD ,Nylo Seal
and
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| Quote: | Nylo Seal has a much higher useful temperature range.Short lengths of
Nylo
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| Quote: | Seal right at the brake assemblies may solve the high heat failure
problem.
Polyflo gets soft at 107 Deg.F
Nylo Seal gets soft at 300 " " and has a much higher burst
pressure.
|
Hello Ted, Thanks for initiating this subject. I'd like to go on and write
a
bit on the subject of brake plumbing. This may get a bit long so please
bear
with me.
1) Plastic Tubing Alone All the Way. There are probably four issues here of
some interest. They are a) softening / melting of the tube in the vicinity
of the brake assembly from over heated brakes. b) expansion of the tubing
under pressure which could reduce braking effectiveness. c) burst pressure
of
the tubing. d) integrity of compression connections. There are other issues
such as durability, size / flexibilty / ease of routing, cost, availability,
ease of installation re connectivity, and so forth, but we'll lay those
aside
for now except as they affect the four listed.
1a) Softening / melting: If you are going to use plastic tubing alone all
the
way you definitely want something at least as good as NYLO-SEAL (33-NSR) or
Parker PARFLEX (NNR-3-039) next to your brake assemblies. You can read some
of the specs on NYLO-SEAL on page 116 of the 1999-2000 Aircraft Spruce
catalog. Some selected specs on PARFLEX (NNR-3-039) from my Parker catalog
are: OPERATING TEMP -60 degF to +200 degF, OD 3/16 in, WALL THICK 0.039 in,
WORK PRESSURE 625 psi, BURST PRESSURE 2500 psi. These two products have
comparable performance because they are both made of nylon 11. Aircraft
Spruce notes that NYLO-SEAL is satisfactory for continuous operation up to
180 degF then becomes embrittled above this temp.
1b) Expansion Under Pressure. If you are concerned about this, then cross
section of the tube / wall thickness becomes of interest. The very smallest
ID with the very largest OD will give the best performance in this regard,
but there are some obvious limits. In the interest of some brevity I won't
replicate a whole bunch of data here because as you'll see shortly there are
some other overriding factors. It appears that a happy medium is a 3/16
inch
OD tube with a 0.039 inch thick wall (Part numbers 33-NSR for NYLO-SEAL and
NNR-3-039 for PARFLEX).
1c) Burst Pressure. Sort of academic for unmelted, well connected tubing.
Suggested working pressure is 1/4 of burst pressure. If you pick the right
size tubing you can get 625 psi working pressure and a burst pressure of
2500
psi. The tubing part numbers above will give you that. If you want the
same
burst pressure performance in a 1/4 in OD tube you need to go up to a 0.050
wall thickness (Part numbers 44-NSR and NNR-4-050).
1d) Compression Connection Integrity. First off a quote from Aircraft
Spruce
"1/4in and 3/8in tubing is not recommended for brake lines; not enough
working pressure to maintain fitting connection to hose". I'm not sure that
I either understand or believe what they are trying to say, but I do believe
that connection integrity is a very high priority. How do you achieve it?
It
is very frustrating because there are more fitting bodies, sleeves, inserts
and partial bits of information floating around on these items than one can
sort out.
I have two different brands of brass POLY-FLO type compression fittings here
for 1/4 in OD tube and both have integral plastic sleeves (one brand white,
one brand black) inside the compression nut. One wonders how these plastic
sleeves will perform next to an over heated brake assembly.
Both brands of these brass fitting bodies for 1/4 in OD plastic tubing have
integral tube inserts or nipples. By that I mean that there is a brass tube
built into the fitting body that the plastic tubing is slipped over during
assembly as opposed to using a separate short brass bell mouthed tube that
is
inserted into the end of the plastic tube prior to inserting the end of the
plastic tubing into the fitting body. But, depending upon the thickness of
the plastic tube wall, that integral brass nipple built into the fitting
body
can fit the ID of the plastic tubing very loosely (it does for 1/4 in OD,
0.035 in thick wall tubing), probably because the nipple OD was made to fit
plastic tubing with the thickest tubing wall likely to be used. This
looseness can adversely affect the integrity of the connection because the
compression sleeve cannot squeeze the plastic tube wall tightly enough
against the integral brass nipple to keep the connection from coming apart
under a pull or high pressure. That may be what Aircraft Spruce is trying
to
say in that quote above. I have a report here that says that the POLY-FLO
type brass fittings for the 1/8 in and 3/16 in OD size plastic tubing do not
include that integral nipple.
So what is the solution? One can use a brass fitting body with no integral
nipple so that a combination of a separate, properly sized brass tube insert
inside the end of the plastic tube, and a compression sleeve made of brass,
could be used. Such a combination, for example, would be a Parker STRAIGHT
BRASS MALE CONNECTOR 68C-3-2, with a BRASS SLEEVE 60C-3, and BRASS 63PT-3-40
INSERT. This combination would allow you to connect your 3/16 OD plastic
tubing with a 0.039 thick wall into a 1/8 in National Pipe Thread (tapered)
female opening in your brake assembly.
Where do you obtain such Parker hardware? I'm looking, but not too hard
because there is an alternate route that one may take.
2) Metal Reenforced Flexible Tubing. Earl's (310-609-1602) makes a
pre-assembled Teflon hose with a stainless braided outer cover called SPEED
FLEX. It is promoted for automobile use because of reduced brake line
expansion under pressure.
It has a continuous operating temperature range of -65degF to +450degF. It
has a maximum operation pressure of 2,000 psi and each hose is tested to
4,000 psi. It can be obtained with straight AN 3 female swivel connections
on
both ends and comes in a variety of lengths from 10 to 36 inches. Prices in
my 1996 CHASSIS SHOP catalog range from $9 to $16 US. (800-530-9494)
One could connect to the 1/8 in NPT female opening in the brake assembly
using an AN 823-3D ELBOW, FLARED TUBE AND PIPE THREAD, 45deg, aluminum
fitting. On the other end of the SPEED FLEX tubing one could convert back
to
3/16 in OD nylon tubing by using a combination of an AN 816-3D NIPPLE,
FLARED
TUBE AND PIPE THREAD aluminum fitting and a brass POLY-FLO FEMALE CONNECTOR
266P-03x02. Or the AN 816-3D nipple and a PARKER FEMALE CONNECTOR 66C-3-2
with the previously mentioned brass sleeve and insert.
There are trade offs in this arena in weight, cost, performance, appearance,
and installation ease. I believe each builder should make his own decisions
based on the best information available to him. I encourage others to
contribute to this discussion in order to make better information available
to all of us.
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
Subj: Re: 3/16 Brake Lines/OC's memo
Date: 10/24/1999
To: kisbuilders(at)angus.mystery.com
10/24/99
In a message dated 10/20/1999 1:07:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
tmclam(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us writes:
Cat.
| Quote: | I have come to the conclusion that the only safe and
proven{Rutan-Glassair]
plastic brake scheme is to use 3/16 Nylaflow tubing,3/16 Polyflow brass
fittings,and2030-4 Weatherhead Tube inserts.......
|
Hello Ted, I thank you for your input, but I'm a little puzzled by it. I'm
not sure why you are choosing NYLAFLOW tubing (which is made from type 6/6
nylon) instead of NYLO-SEAL or PARFLEX (which is made from type 11 nylon)
and
there may be a size compatibility issue in the hardware / tubing that you
describe.
Let me put down some selected data that I have here from S & L Plastics (the
makers of NYLAFLOW), the Aircraft Spruce catalog, and the Parker PARFLEX
catalog:
1) 3/16 inch OD NYLAFLOW tubing comes in Type H (heavy wall), part number
4TD2-04420, ID 0.111 inch, wall thickness 0.038 inch, burst pressure 2,500
psi and Type T (thin wall), part number 4TD2-54420, ID 0.137 inch, wall
thickness 0.025 inch, burst pressure 1,000 psi.
2) The OD of the Weatherhead part number 2030-4 brass tube insert is 1/8 or
0.125 inch. If you are using NYLAFLOW Type H 3/16 inch OD tubing you may
be
able to force the 0.125 inch OD brass insert into the 0.111 inch ID plastic
tubing. (I've also heard of people doing some reaming of the plastic tubing
in order to force in a brass tube insert that was a little too large). On
the other hand, if you are using NYLAFLOW Type T 3/16 inch OD tubing then
the
0.125 inch OD brass insert will be a loose fit in the 0.137 inch ID plastic
tubing.
3) The 3/16 inch OD NYLAFLOW tubing listed on page 116 of the 1999-2000
Aircraft Spruce catalog is described as having an ID of 0.138 inch. I
assume
that means that they are selling the Type T (thin wall) NYLAFLOW tubing
(which is also what I got from Wicks a while back when I ordered some 1/4
inch OD tubing for a pitot static system).
4) The suggested temperature range for the NYLAFLOW tubing is -65 to +150
deg F. The suggested temperature range for the NYLO-SEAL and PARFLEX nylon
tubing is -60 to +200 deg F.
5) The tubing with the thickest wall will have the least expansion under
pressure.
6) The combination that you describe may be entirely satisfactory, but if I
were going to go plastic all the way from the brake pedal cylinder to the
wheel brake assembly, my inclination would be to go with the 3/16 inch OD
tubing that gives me the highest pressure burst rating and the highest
operating temperature and search out the fittings and inserts that are
compatible with that tubing.
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
Subj: Re: Brakelines/Fitting Orfice?
Date: 10/30/1999
To: kisbuilders(at)angus.mystery.com
In a message dated 10/30/1999 10:44:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
tmclam(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us writes:
| Quote: | To any Hydraulic Guru
brass fittings for plastic brake lines is the same 1/8 in. dia. hole for
the 3/16 and 1/4 in fittings.
Should the tubing inside dia. match the orfice size for better flow and
less cavitation and possible Bleeding problems?Dumping fluid from a 1/8
hole to an abrupt larger dia. dose not seem right to me.
Had to request a reorder of 3/16 Nylaflow from AS because the 20 feet i
received had kinks in it every 4-6 feet.I need two 7-8 ft. runs.
Ted
|
Hello Ted, I sure don't qualify as a hydraulic guru (although I've been
called "all wet" a few times) but I'd like to respond to your
questions/comments.
First with regard to flow. In our aircraft brake systems we are looking at
a
minimal amount of fluid flow or movement. The brake pucks are just a minute
distance away from the discs before brake application (recall that there are
no piston retracting springs in the wheel brake assembly) and the cylinder
space behind pistons pushing the brake pucks should be full of fluid, so
when
you step on the brake pedal you should get almost instant equal liquid
pressure through out the system. That is why we can get away with using
such
small inside diameter tubing between the brake pedal cylinder and the wheel
brake cylinder.
If there is no air in the system and the flexible line does not expand under
pressure
we are dealing with an almost rigid connection in terms of equal pressure
beween the piston at the pedal and the piston at the wheel since the fluid
is
pretty much incompressible.
Notice that I said pressure, not force. The force exerted on the brake
pucks
is going to be a function of the leverage designed into the brake pedal, the
amount of force you are applying to the pedal with your foot, and the
relative sizes of the pedal brake cylinder / piston and the wheel brake
cylinder / piston.
With regard to the hole size in the fitting: You are referring to these
fittings as being either 3/16 or 1/4 inch fittings by virtue of the fact
that
they accept either a 3/16 or 1/4 inch OD flex tube on the compression end of
the fitting. But the other end of these fittings are male National Pipe
Thread (tapered)** right? And hole sizes in NPT fittings are approximately
the diameter of the fitting name. For example a NPT 1/8 inch male fitting
will have a hole about 1/8 inch in diameter through it. The outside of the
male fitting will of course be tapered, much larger in diameter than 1/8
inch, will have 27 threads per inch, and should thread into a 1/8 inch NPT
female opening.
By the way, I am not a big fan of using Teflon paste or tape anywhere on the
fittings in the fuel or hydraulic systems of our aircraft. Instead I favor
something like Sealube (see page 296 of the 1999-2000 ACS catalog) that will
both seal and lubricate and never harden.
Are you getting the thin wall or the thick wall NYLAFLOW tubing? Thick wall
would be superior for a brake system. Thick wall NYLO-SEAL or PARFLEX would
be even better. See my earlier post on this subject.
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - ?/?/?
**PS: The complete proper name for this thread is National Pipe and that
terminology along with the approximate orifice size almost completely
defines
the thread (except for some fit criteria) for those people familiar with
taps, dies, and threads. But so many lay people have come to grief trying
to
screw together a National Pipe thread piece of hardware, which is tapered,
and a straight threaded piece of hardware that I have taken to emphasizing
that the NP thread is in fact a tapered thread and people shouldn't try to
force two dissimilar threaded pieces together.
=====================================================
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Robert Reed
Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 331
Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth
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| Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:24 pm Post subject: Brake Lines/tubing |
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Mike,
I am using 3/16 braided flex tubing for the entire system. You could easily use solid metal lines for the manifold to the bulkhead fitting for the wheels but I decided not change the inside diameter by doing that. I used 3/16 flex because it fit perfectly and very snug in the grove on the landing gear.
Bob Reed
From: Mike Pienaar <mjpienaar(at)shaw.ca>
To: KISBUILDERS <kis-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Thu, September 30, 2010 11:10:30 AM
Subject: Brake Lines/tubing
Hi All,
What type of tubing should I use for my brakes? I was thinking of flexible lines from the master cylinders to a manifold and then solid metal lines to a point 12 to 18 inches from the wheel and then flexible lines to the wheel again. Can I use aluminum tubing and if yes what grade.
Has anybody used part No 11-03854 (link below) from aircraft spruce to secure wires and tubing? What adhesive would you suggest and would double sided tape work.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/cabletiemounts.php
Thanks
Mike
[quote][b]
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kentpyle(at)iland.net
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:50 pm Post subject: Brake Lines/tubing |
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Mike, some of the planes that are steered with the brakes have had the plastic lines melt due to the heat created by the brakes. I used regular brake line from the brake to where the line enters the fuse. Then used flex line on the the brake cylinders. Kent
[quote] ---
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fredorosa(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 5:00 am Post subject: Brake Lines/tubing |
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I used teflon with stainless steel braiding for the whole run from master cylinder to the caliper. It lasts the lifetime of the plane.
Al
On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 8:23 PM, kent pyle <kentpyle(at)iland.net (kentpyle(at)iland.net)> wrote:
[quote] Mike, some of the planes that are steered with the brakes have had the plastic lines melt due to the heat created by the brakes. I used regular brake line from the brake to where the line enters the fuse. Then used flex line on the the brake cylinders. Kent
[quote] ---
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