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fuel seepage
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sstearns2(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:03 pm    Post subject: fuel seepage Reply with quote

My right wing has a lot of small places where fuel is seeping out of the laminate. For instance some of the screws that hold the aileron on have blue stains around them. It's pretty clear that fuel has gotten into the wing skin sandwich panel and is wicking through laminate and foam. The left wing doesn't have any fuel seeps.

The top right wing skin also has a lot of the weave showing through which might be related to the fuel getting to the panel.

I'm a bit surprised since the fuel tanks have two coat of the jeffco fuel sealer in them. I played around with some sandwich panel that is the same material as the wing skin (but without fuel sealer) and fuel soaks through the laminate and through the foam core easily.

Anyone have any thoughts? Should I worry or is this common?

Scott

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:42 pm    Post subject: fuel seepage Reply with quote

Bummer! I think Rich has recommended creating a vacuum in the tank and applying a thin epoxy mix to the affected surface areas, the vacuum sucks the epoxy into the voids. You should find this and other recommendations in the archives.

Tim
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:35 am    Post subject: fuel seepage Reply with quote

Scott
If the fuel stains are around the aileron screws I think your problem may be fuel coming out of the cap. I also had this problem and found that leaving the tanks a little low solved the problem. During flight you cannot see the fuel coming out but it does. Check your fuel caps. I doubt very much that fuel would seep that far through the foam core. The core is closed cell so the only way fuel could travel is along the skin/core bond. Have you tested the tank for air leakage with a monometer. I would start there and take it step by step.
Rich

--- On Tue, 10/19/10, Scott Stearns <sstearns2(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

Quote:

From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: fuel seepage
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, October 19, 2010, 5:01 AM

My right wing has a lot of small places where fuel is seeping out of the laminate. For instance some of the screws that hold the aileron on have blue stains around them. It's pretty clear that fuel has gotten into the wing skin sandwich panel and is wicking through laminate and foam. The left wing doesn't have any fuel seeps.

The top right wing skin also has a lot of the weave showing through which might be related to the fuel getting to the panel.

I'm a bit surprised since the fuel tanks have two coat of the jeffco fuel sealer in them. I played around with some sandwich panel that is the same material as the wing skin (but without fuel sealer) and fuel soaks through the laminate and through the foam core easily.

Anyone have any thoughts? Should I worry or is this common?

Scott

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:05 am    Post subject: fuel seepage Reply with quote

Hi Rich,

I have a laminate that is just like the wing laminate. I poured a pool of fuel on top of it and it readily soaked thru the laminate and through the foam core. The carbon was somewhat low resin content and I didn't use glue sheet in the wing skins.

I also had areas in the wingtip where fuel was seeping out of the wing skin laminate. Also some of the areas around the screws that hold the lower wing root fairing on are pretty badly blue stained.

Scott



--- On Tue, 10/19/10, Richard Trickel <richard_trickel(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

Quote:

From: Richard Trickel <richard_trickel(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: fuel seepage
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, October 19, 2010, 5:27 AM

Scott
If the fuel stains are around the aileron screws I think your problem may be fuel coming out of the cap. I also had this problem and found that leaving the tanks a little low solved the problem. During flight you cannot see the fuel coming out but it does. Check your fuel caps. I doubt very much that fuel would seep that far through the foam core. The core is closed cell so the only way fuel could travel is along the skin/core bond. Have you tested the tank for air leakage with a monometer. I would start there and take it step by step.
Rich

--- On Tue, 10/19/10, Scott Stearns <sstearns2(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

Quote:

From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: fuel seepage
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, October 19, 2010, 5:01 AM

My right wing has a lot of small places where fuel is seeping out of the laminate. For instance some of the screws that hold the aileron on have blue stains around them. It's pretty clear that fuel has gotten into the wing skin sandwich panel and is wicking through laminate and foam. The left wing doesn't have any fuel seeps.

The top right wing skin also has a lot of the weave showing through which might be related to the fuel getting to the panel.

I'm a bit surprised since the fuel tanks have two coat of the jeffco fuel sealer in them. I played around with some sandwich panel that is the same material as the wing skin (but without fuel sealer) and fuel soaks through the laminate and through the foam core easily.

Anyone have any thoughts? Should I worry or is this common?

Scott

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:06 am    Post subject: fuel seepage Reply with quote

I'm fixing the seeps in a variety of ways, but I'm mainly about the fuel being in the wing skin laminate.

Scott

--- On Mon, 10/18/10, F. Tim Yoder <ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com> wrote:

[quote]
From: F. Tim Yoder <ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com>
Subject: Re: fuel seepage
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Monday, October 18, 2010, 10:41 PM

Bummer! I think Rich has recommended creating a vacuum in the tank and applying a thin epoxy mix to the affected surface areas, the vacuum sucks the epoxy into the voids. You should find this and other recommendations in the archives.

Tim
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:39 am    Post subject: fuel seepage Reply with quote

Scott
are your skins honeycomb or foam
Rich

--- On Tue, 10/19/10, Scott Stearns <sstearns2(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

[quote]
From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: fuel seepage
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, October 19, 2010, 4:04 PM

I'm fixing the seeps in a variety of ways, but I'm mainly about the fuel being in the wing skin laminate.

Scott

--- On Mon, 10/18/10, F. Tim Yoder <ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com> wrote:

[quote]
From: F. Tim Yoder <ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com>
Subject: Re: fuel seepage
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Monday, October 18, 2010, 10:41 PM

Bummer! I think Rich has recommended creating a vacuum in the tank and applying a thin epoxy mix to the affected surface areas, the vacuum sucks the epoxy into the voids. You should find this and other recommendations in the archives.

Tim
[quote] ---


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:43 am    Post subject: fuel seepage Reply with quote

Scott I should have asked what the foam core is. The fact that the carbon cloth is porus is understandable but I was always under the belief that closed cell foam would not pass the fuel.  This is one of the reason I used it.. I would definately do a pressure check on the wing based on your discription of seapage. Fuel is funny though. Those fuel molecules are sneaky little bastards.
--- On Tue, 10/19/10, Scott Stearns <sstearns2(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote:

From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: fuel seepage
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, October 19, 2010, 4:02 PM

Hi Rich,

I have a laminate that is just like the wing laminate. I poured a pool of fuel on top of it and it readily soaked thru the laminate and through the foam core. The carbon was somewhat low resin content and I didn't use glue sheet in the wing skins.

I also had areas in the wingtip where fuel was seeping out of the wing skin laminate. Also some of the areas around the screws that hold the lower wing root fairing on are pretty badly blue stained.

Scott



--- On Tue, 10/19/10, Richard Trickel <richard_trickel(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

Quote:

From: Richard Trickel <richard_trickel(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: fuel seepage
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, October 19, 2010, 5:27 AM

Scott
If the fuel stains are around the aileron screws I think your problem may be fuel coming out of the cap. I also had this problem and found that leaving the tanks a little low solved the problem. During flight you cannot see the fuel coming out but it does. Check your fuel caps. I doubt very much that fuel would seep that far through the foam core. The core is closed cell so the only way fuel could travel is along the skin/core bond. Have you tested the tank for air leakage with a monometer. I would start there and take it step by step.
Rich

--- On Tue, 10/19/10, Scott Stearns <sstearns2(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

Quote:

From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: fuel seepage
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, October 19, 2010, 5:01 AM

My right wing has a lot of small places where fuel is seeping out of the laminate. For instance some of the screws that hold the aileron on have blue stains around them. It's pretty clear that fuel has gotten into the wing skin sandwich panel and is wicking through laminate and foam. The left wing doesn't have any fuel seeps.

The top right wing skin also has a lot of the weave showing through which might be related to the fuel getting to the panel.

I'm a bit surprised since the fuel tanks have two coat of the jeffco fuel sealer in them. I played around with some sandwich panel that is the same material as the wing skin (but without fuel sealer) and fuel soaks through the laminate and through the foam core easily.

Anyone have any thoughts? Should I worry or is this common?

Scott

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:57 am    Post subject: fuel seepage Reply with quote

Foam.... orange foam... the fuel soaks through it easily but doesn't seem to effect it. I have a jar of fuel that I'm soaking a few pieces of the laminate in.

Scott

--- On Tue, 10/19/10, Richard Trickel <richard_trickel(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

[quote]
From: Richard Trickel <richard_trickel(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: fuel seepage
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, October 19, 2010, 10:28 AM

Scott
are your skins honeycomb or foam
Rich

--- On Tue, 10/19/10, Scott Stearns <sstearns2(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

[quote]
From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: fuel seepage
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, October 19, 2010, 4:04 PM

I'm fixing the seeps in a variety of ways, but I'm mainly about the fuel being in the wing skin laminate.

Scott

--- On Mon, 10/18/10, F. Tim Yoder <ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com> wrote:

[quote]
From: F. Tim Yoder <ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com>
Subject: Re: fuel seepage
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Monday, October 18, 2010, 10:41 PM

Bummer! I think Rich has recommended creating a vacuum in the tank and applying a thin epoxy mix to the affected surface areas, the vacuum sucks the epoxy into the voids. You should find this and other recommendations in the archives.

Tim
[quote] ---


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:00 am    Post subject: fuel seepage Reply with quote

I was amazed at how 'seepy' 100LL is when I was playing with it and the scrap pieces of laminate yesterday. It just wants to wick into anything and seep everywhere. 

Scott

--- On Tue, 10/19/10, Richard Trickel <richard_trickel(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

Quote:

From: Richard Trickel <richard_trickel(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: fuel seepage
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, October 19, 2010, 10:41 AM

Scott I should have asked what the foam core is. The fact that the carbon cloth is porus is understandable but I was always under the belief that closed cell foam would not pass the fuel. This is one of the reason I used it.. I would definately do a pressure check on the wing based on your discription of seapage. Fuel is funny though. Those fuel molecules are sneaky little bastards.
--- On Tue, 10/19/10, Scott Stearns <sstearns2(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote:

From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: fuel seepage
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, October 19, 2010, 4:02 PM

Hi Rich,

I have a laminate that is just like the wing laminate. I poured a pool of fuel on top of it and it readily soaked thru the laminate and through the foam core. The carbon was somewhat low resin content and I didn't use glue sheet in the wing skins.

I also had areas in the wingtip where fuel was seeping out of the wing skin laminate. Also some of the areas around the screws that hold the lower wing root fairing on are pretty badly blue stained.

Scott



--- On Tue, 10/19/10, Richard Trickel <richard_trickel(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

Quote:

From: Richard Trickel <richard_trickel(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: fuel seepage
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, October 19, 2010, 5:27 AM

Scott
If the fuel stains are around the aileron screws I think your problem may be fuel coming out of the cap. I also had this problem and found that leaving the tanks a little low solved the problem. During flight you cannot see the fuel coming out but it does. Check your fuel caps. I doubt very much that fuel would seep that far through the foam core. The core is closed cell so the only way fuel could travel is along the skin/core bond. Have you tested the tank for air leakage with a monometer. I would start there and take it step by step.
Rich

--- On Tue, 10/19/10, Scott Stearns <sstearns2(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

Quote:

From: Scott Stearns <sstearns2(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: fuel seepage
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, October 19, 2010, 5:01 AM

My right wing has a lot of small places where fuel is seeping out of the laminate. For instance some of the screws that hold the aileron on have blue stains around them. It's pretty clear that fuel has gotten into the wing skin sandwich panel and is wicking through laminate and foam. The left wing doesn't have any fuel seeps.

The top right wing skin also has a lot of the weave showing through which might be related to the fuel getting to the panel.

I'm a bit surprised since the fuel tanks have two coat of the jeffco fuel sealer in them. I played around with some sandwich panel that is the same material as the wing skin (but without fuel sealer) and fuel soaks through the laminate and through the foam core easily.

Anyone have any thoughts? Should I worry or is this common?

Scott

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:44 pm    Post subject: fuel seepage Reply with quote

Scott, When I was having my gasohol problems, you gave me the Jeffco 9700 idea and it solved my leakeage problem. I am surprised that fuel is getting past the Jeffco 9700. Is it possible that somehing has happened to the wing during your test flights? Something seems to have changed. Larry
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:57 pm    Post subject: fuel seepage Reply with quote

Hi Larry,

The seepage started fairly soon after I put a significant amount of fuel in it. After playing with the scrap laminate and fuel it looks like it would only take a small area to be exposed which is probably what's happening.

Scott

--- On Tue, 10/19/10, Larry David <lgdavid(at)roadrunner.com> wrote:

[quote]
From: Larry David <lgdavid(at)roadrunner.com>
Subject: Re: fuel seepage
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, October 19, 2010, 4:38 PM

Scott, When I was having my gasohol problems, you gave me the Jeffco 9700 idea and it solved my leakeage problem. I am surprised that fuel is getting past the Jeffco 9700. Is it possible that somehing has happened to the wing during your test flights?  Something seems to have changed. Larry
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:45 am    Post subject: fuel seepage Reply with quote

Scott,
No advice here ...but just to say ...sorry hear about the set back ...grrr ...!!!

Graham .


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:50 am    Post subject: fuel seepage Reply with quote

Scott and others,

I think Jeffco is great and is the way to go. But only after all pin holes and other pores are first filled with epoxy. I think the Jeffco is too thick and will bridge and form pin holes. I think the factory could have used resin rich veil where there there is fuel. When I was doing the LSA in China I specified two layers of veil in the fuel tank areas.

But since that was not done on the KIS and is still not done in many kits I would first spread on epoxy in the areas that will become the tank. Make it very wet and push it back, forth and into the surface slowly. Then remove the excess. Then after it is cured, sand most of it off and repeat.

For this I would use infusion resin with low viscosity. Normal laminating resin has is about 1000 cps and tends to bridge and form pin holes. Infusion epoxy can be under 200 cps. Epoxy can also be slightly thinned using acetone. I use no more than 5%. Still, start with the infusion resin and thin from there.

Of course this does not help those with closed wings. But if you were to slosh or use vacuum to draw in resin I would use infusion resin. I do not know if you can use epoxy over Jeffco.

Mark


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:51 am    Post subject: fuel seepage Reply with quote

Mark
We are about to build the wing skins for the Volare. Don`t have any vail here but do have film adhesive which you have seen. Think that would work?
Rich

--- On Wed, 10/20/10, Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net> wrote:

Quote:

From: Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: fuel seepage
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 12:40 PM

--> KIS-List message posted by: Mark Kettering <mantafs(at)earthlink.net (mantafs(at)earthlink.net)>

Scott and others,

I think Jeffco is great and is the way to go. But only after all pin holes and other pores are first filled with epoxy. I think the Jeffco is too thick and will bridge and form pin holes. I think the factory could have used resin rich veil where there there is fuel. When I was doing the LSA in China I specified two layers of veil in the fuel tank areas.

But since that was not done on the KIS and is still not done in many kits I would first spread on epoxy in the areas that will become the tank. Make it very wet and push it back, forth and into the surface slowly. Then remove the excess.  Then after it is cured, sand most of it off and repeat.

For this I would use infusion resin with low viscosity. Normal laminating resin has is about 1000 cps and tends to bridge and form pin holes. Infusion epoxy can be under 200 cps. Epoxy can also be slightly thinned using acetone. I use no more than 5%. Still, start with the infusion resin and thin from there.

Of course this does not help those with closed wings. But if you were to slosh or use vacuum to draw in resin I would use infusion resin. I do not know if you can use epoxy o href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List" target=_blank>http:p://forums.matronics.com/" target=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com< &nbstp://www.matronics.com/contribution" =======



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:54 am    Post subject: fuel seepage Reply with quote

Hi Rich,

If I recall there were a few types of film adhesive. One had what looked like some veil when you ripped it. Another seemed to have no veil. Both will help but I think the type with veil is better.

On molds and boat parts I have been using veil and it really prevents pin holes and reduces print through. It adds a very small amount of weight but it is well worth it. I have not used in on aircraft parts (other than for the inside at the fuel tanks) but I would consider it if you can find it as prepreg. We made our own prepreg at the LSA factory. The boat parts are infusion epoxy and do not have gel coat so can also have pin hole issues when there is no veil.

I would use dry veil with the film adhesive of any type for the fuel tanks if you can not find prepreg.

Mark

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:14 pm    Post subject: fuel seepage Reply with quote

It's not really much a set back, but I'm concerned about the long term effects knowing that there is fuel in the laminate.  I think I've gotten all the fuel seepages plugged and I'll touch up the paint so you can't tell.  I have some test samples soaking in fuel and it doesn't seem to be having any effect.
 
This is just one of a number of little things I'm fixing while the landing gear of off and being bent to the correct angle.
 
Scott

--- On Wed, 10/20/10, Graham Brighton <gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au> wrote:
From: Graham Brighton <gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au>
Subject: Re: fuel seepage
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 4:43 AM

Scott,
               No advice here ...but just to say ...sorry hear about the set back ...grrr ...!!!
 
Graham .
 
 


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ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:36 am    Post subject: fuel seepage Reply with quote

Scott,

How did you plug the seeps?

Tim
[quote] ---


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sstearns2(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:40 am    Post subject: fuel seepage Reply with quote

I pumped all the fuel to the other side and the just used epoxy to paint over the areas.  I drilled oversize some of the screw holes and filled them with flox and redirlled the hole.
 
Scott

--- On Thu, 10/21/10, F. Tim Yoder <ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com> wrote:
From: F. Tim Yoder <ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com>
Subject: Re: fuel seepage
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 6:30 AM

Scott,
 
How did you plug the seeps?
 
Tim

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gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:55 pm    Post subject: fuel seepage Reply with quote

Err ... Scott ..so how did u get insde the tank to seal the leaks ...or .or ....confused ....?

Graham


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:31 pm    Post subject: fuel seepage Reply with quote

oh sorry... I haven't thought about sealing the insides of the tanks yet.  I was referring to sealing the seeps on the outside. 
 
After playing with the fuel and composite laminates I have to think that most composite kit planes have fuel in the core to some degree even if its not apparent from the outside.
 
Scott

--- On Thu, 10/21/10, Graham Brighton <gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au> wrote:
From: Graham Brighton <gbrighton(at)skymesh.com.au>
Subject: Re: fuel seepage
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 1:53 PM

Err ... Scott ..so how did u get insde the tank to seal the leaks ...or ..or ....confused ....?
 
Graham
 


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