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Europa fuel tank - LDPE or HDPE?

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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:49 am Post subject: Europa fuel tank - LDPE or HDPE?

Would anyone know which it is?  (I think I had heard LDPE)



I am asking because I am about to spend some money getting my still uninstalled tank Fluorinated or Re-Fluorinated - since I cannot be sure to what  level it was done by the Europa factory (if it was done at all back in 2000) and I  wish to avoid the swelling and cracking problems some are seeing in service.



I am choosing to Fluorinate to the same level (AL) as the auto industry (by Fluoro-Seal  International LP) 



Thanks in advance,

 Pete

A239

Ottawa Canada  [quote][b]

craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:12 pm Post subject: Europa fuel tank - LDPE or HDPE?

my kit  is from 2000 as well, and i asked the factory (before the merger) back in 2008  if my tank fell into the post non fluorinated time frame, and  they

 responded this after i indicated the desire to purchase  a new fluorinated tank. so based on what i was told i would believe yours should  be ok. If its not

 much  cost involved the second treatment would probably be a good  investment.

  

 regards

  

 craig 

 [quote]   --

jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:34 pm Post subject: Europa fuel tank - LDPE or HDPE?

Introduction of fluorination was in April 1997:

http://www.sarangan.org/www/mhonarc/mharc/html//europa-list/1997-08/msg00096.html



I have assumed that my tank from the year 2000 was treated and did not 

repeat it. In any case any spilt epoxy bonds to it extremely well (as 

well as to itself) - which is supposed to be a side effect of fluorination.



Jan de Jong



craig bastin wrote:

[quote] my kit is from 2000 as well, and i asked the factory (before the 

 merger) back in 2008 if my tank fell into the post non fluorinated 

 time frame, and they

 responded this after i indicated the desire to purchase a new 

 fluorinated tank. so based on what i was told i would believe yours 

 should be ok. If its not

 much cost involved the second treatment would probably be a good 

 investment.

  

 regards

  

 craig 



     --

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:18 pm Post subject: Europa fuel tank - LDPE or HDPE?

thanks all for the info/links.  Looks like mine *should* have been done, but since I still don't know to what level, I decided to go get it done again, this time to automotive level standards.

  

 Based upon the softness of the tank material, I presume it is LDPE.

  

 Cheers & thx,

 Pete

 A239, building finally starting in earnest.



 On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 5:28 PM, Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl (jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl (jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl)>

  

Introduction of fluorination was in April 1997:

http://www.sarangan.org/www/mhonarc/mharc/html//europa-list/1997-08/msg00096.html

  

I have assumed that my tank from the year 2000 was treated and did not repeat it. In any case any spilt epoxy bonds to it extremely well (as well as to itself) - which is supposed to be a side effect of fluorination.

  

Jan de Jong   

 



craig bastin wrote:

 [quote]my kit is from 2000 as well, and i asked the factory (before the merger) back in 2008 if my tank fell into the post non fluorinated time frame, and they

  responded this after i indicated the desire to purchase a new fluorinated tank. so based on what i was told i would believe yours should be ok. If its not

much cost involved the second treatment would probably be a good investment.

   regards

 craig 

   --

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:48 pm Post subject: Europa fuel tank - LDPE or HDPE?

Peter,



Since your tank is yet to be installed, I expect that you will be taking it somewhere for treatment. As one w/ an installed but yet to be filled w/ fuel tank of similar vintage, I'm wondering about the treatment you anticipate and how it is done...(?)...Is it something which conceivable could be accomplished on an installed tank if the fuselage were trailered to a facility which does this sort of thing?

I wouldn't expect the treatment would be offered at the neighborhood "gaairage" (phonetic sp.? lol), but I've no idea what type of facility does this sort of work...do you live near a factory which supplies the auto industry?

Please keep us posted on this,

Fred



On Dec 12, 2010, at 5:13 PM, Peter Zutrauen wrote:

[quote]thanks all for the info/links.  Looks like mine *should* have been done, but since I still don't know to what level, I decided to go get it done again, this time to automotive level standards.

  

 Based upon the softness of the tank material, I presume it is LDPE.

  

 Cheers & thx,

 Pete

 A239, building finally starting in earnest.



 On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 5:28 PM, Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl (jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl (jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl)>

 

Introduction of fluorination was in April 1997:

http://www.sarangan.org/www/mhonarc/mharc/html//europa-list/1997-08/msg00096.html

 

I have assumed that my tank from the year 2000 was treated and did not repeat it. In any case any spilt epoxy bonds to it extremely well (as well as to itself) - which is supposed to be a side effect of fluorination.

 

Jan de Jong  

 



craig bastin wrote:

 [quote]my kit is from 2000 as well, and i asked the factory (before the merger) back in 2008 if my tank fell into the post non fluorinated time frame, and they

 responded this after i indicated the desire to purchase a new fluorinated tank. so based on what i was told i would believe yours should be ok. If its not

much cost involved the second treatment would probably be a good investment.

  regards

 craig 

   --

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:11 am Post subject: Europa fuel tank - LDPE or HDPE?

Hi Fred,



Indeed it is an industrial process on the loose piece-parts in temperature/pressure controlled chambers filled with controlled volumes of Fluorine. Different parameter combinations for different levels of fluorination (they have 9 different levels).  They typically are set up to do large mfg runs of auto gas tanks, plastic gerry cans, shampoo bottles etc.etc.  so I'm eating a minimum charge (which they somewhat reduced for me) which is distasteful but understandable, and worth my piece of mind (hopefully preventing me from potentially hacking out my tank 5-10 years down the road.).   If I had 4 tanks or so, I could have done it much more cost effectively.

  

They have 4 facilities which can do the Auto-tank level, and I chose their Atlanta plant for it's relative proximity.



I'll keep folks posted how it goes and can provide contact info for any interested.

  

Cheers,

Pete

A239



On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 8:45 PM, Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)> wrote:

[quote]  Peter,



Since your tank is yet to be installed, I expect that you will be taking it somewhere for treatment. As one w/ an installed but yet to be filled w/ fuel tank of similar vintage, I'm wondering about the treatment you anticipate and how it is done...(?)...Is it something which conceivable could be accomplished on an installed tank if the fuselage were trailered to a facility which does this sort of thing?

  



I wouldn't expect the treatment would be offered at the neighborhood "gaairage" (phonetic sp.? lol), but I've no idea what type of facility does this sort of work...do you live near a factory which supplies the auto industry?

  



Please keep us posted on this,

Fred





On Dec 12, 2010, at 5:13 PM, Peter Zutrauen wrote:



  [quote]

thanks all for the info/links.  Looks like mine *should* have been done, but since I still don't know to what level, I decided to go get it done again, this time to automotive level standards.

    

 Based upon the softness of the tank material, I presume it is LDPE.

  

 Cheers & thx,

 Pete

 A239, building finally starting in earnest.



 



  

On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 5:28 PM, Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl (jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl)> wrote:

   



[quote]

--> Europa-List message posted by: Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl (jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl)>

   

Introduction of fluorination was in April 1997:

http://www.sarangan.org/www/mhonarc/mharc/html//europa-list/1997-08/msg00096.html

   

I have assumed that my tank from the year 2000 was treated and did not repeat it. In any case any spilt epoxy bonds to it extremely well (as well as to itself) - which is supposed to be a side effect of fluorination.

   

Jan de Jong 



 

 



craig bastin wrote:

 [quote]  

my kit is from 2000 as well, and i asked the factory (before the merger) back in 2008 if my tank fell into the post non fluorinated time frame, and they

 responded this after i indicated the desire to purchase a new fluorinated tank. so based on what i was told i would believe yours should be ok. If its not

  much cost involved the second treatment would probably be a good investment.

  regards

 craig 

   --

asarangan(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:49 pm Post subject: Europa fuel tank - LDPE or HDPE?

Pete,

My tank is probably flourinated since I got it after 2000. However

since I haven't fitted my tank in yet, so I may be interested in

getting the extra treatment done. What is the cost? If it is not too

expensive, I could be convinced to split the cost.



On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 7:06 AM, Peter Zutrauen <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> wrote:

[quote] Hi Fred,



 Indeed it is an industrial process on the loose piece-parts in

 temperature/pressure controlled chambers filled with controlled volumes of

 Fluorine. Different parameter combinations for different levels of

 fluorination (they have 9 different levels).  They typically are set up to

 do large mfg runs of auto gas tanks, plastic gerry cans, shampoo bottles

 etc.etc.  so I'm eating a minimum charge (which they somewhat reduced for

 me) which is distasteful but understandable, and worth my piece of mind

 (hopefully preventing me from potentially hacking out my tank 5-10 years

 down the road.).   If I had 4 tanks or so, I could have done it much more

 cost effectively.



 They have 4 facilities which can do the Auto-tank level, and I chose their

 Atlanta plant for it's relative proximity.



 I'll keep folks posted how it goes and can provide contact info for any

 interested.



 Cheers,

 Pete

 A239



 On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 8:45 PM, Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> wrote:

>

> Peter,

> Since your tank is yet to be installed, I expect that you will be taking

> it somewhere for treatment. As one w/ an installed but yet to be filled w/

> fuel tank of similar vintage, I'm wondering about the treatment you

> anticipate and how it is done...(?)...Is it something which conceivable

> could be accomplished on an installed tank if the fuselage were trailered to

> a facility which does this sort of thing?

> I wouldn't expect the treatment would be offered at the neighborhood

> "gaairage" (phonetic sp.? lol), but I've no idea what type of facility does

> this sort of work...do you live near a factory which supplies the auto

> industry?

> Please keep us posted on this,

> Fred

>

> On Dec 12, 2010, at 5:13 PM, Peter Zutrauen wrote:

>

> thanks all for the info/links.  Looks like mine *should* have been done,

> but since I still don't know to what level, I decided to go get it done

> again, this time to automotive level standards.

>

> Based upon the softness of the tank material, I presume it is LDPE.

>

> Cheers & thx,

> Pete

> A239, building finally starting in earnest.

> On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 5:28 PM, Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl>

> wrote:

>>

>> 

>>

>> Introduction of fluorination was in April 1997:

>>

>> http://www.sarangan.org/www/mhonarc/mharc/html//europa-list/1997-08/msg00096.html

>>

>> I have assumed that my tank from the year 2000 was treated and did not

>> repeat it. In any case any spilt epoxy bonds to it extremely well (as well

>> as to itself) - which is supposed to be a side effect of fluorination.

>>

>> Jan de Jong

>>

>> craig bastin wrote:

>>>

>>> my kit is from 2000 as well, and i asked the factory (before the merger)

>>> back in 2008 if my tank fell into the post non fluorinated time frame, and

>>> they

>>> responded this after i indicated the desire to purchase a new

>>> fluorinated tank. so based on what i was told i would believe yours should

>>> be ok. If its not

>>> much cost involved the second treatment would probably be a good

>>> investment.

>>>  regards

>>>  craig

>>>    --

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:35 pm Post subject: Europa fuel tank - LDPE or HDPE?

On Dec 13, 2010, at 4:06 AM, Peter Zutrauen wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Indeed it is an industrial process on the loose piece-parts in  

 temperature/pressure controlled chambers filled with controlled  

 volumes of Fluorine.


	


Thanks Pete...not a surprise, but I had a tiny hope that the process  

might have just entailed "filling up" w/ Fluorine...shakin it up a bit  

so the fluid/gas (?) could shlosh around a bit...and letting it drain  

(in my dreams!)...oh well...Fred

wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:38 am Post subject: Europa fuel tank - LDPE or HDPE?

Oh dear....mine is already in but it seems the             problem is not universal.

             

             Just out of interest how on earth do you get it out once the             airplane is built around it?

             

             Will

             

                 	  Quote: 	
		   [/b] 	
     [b]

hagargs(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:02 pm Post subject: Europa fuel tank - LDPE or HDPE?

Peter:

  

 Have you sent your tank in yet?  I being one who having to "hack my tank out" have a tank that I bought a couple of years ago from Bob Berube.  I don't know how long he had it so its processing is questionable.  I had been planning on fabricating a metal tank for installation when I got around to it so the new plastic tank has been sitting around to be used as a model.  However I may change my mind and put the stock item in it would be good to have the proper processing on it.  If the lot charge could be spread over 2 or more tanks it would be beneficial.  Please  get with me if this is something to be considered.

  

 Thank you ,

  

 Steve Hagar

 A143

 Mesa AZ

 hagargs(at)earthlink.net (hagargs(at)earthlink.net)

  

 

  

 [quote] ---

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:00 am Post subject: Europa fuel tank - LDPE or HDPE?

Hi Steve,



Yes, my tank is en-route.  As I've been advised from them that if the tank is not free of contaminants (I had to clean mine inside and out with naphtha/methanol - nasty) it could be damaged in the process (over-heat from a reaction with contaminants), I'd recommend that we wait and see how mine goes. Also, I've asked them to produce an accurate costing for my tank (and filler snake) with the prospect of doing a few more (grouped together) for any other builders out there.

    

One interesting comment by their technical adviser I thought may have some merit:  when he was examining pictures of my tank for a cost estimate, he advised me that all cuts/openings to the tank must be done prior to the process, or any exposed freshly cut surface will be an entry point for the absorption of fuel into the MDPE plastic. This is because the fluorination treatment is only a surface treatment.  So if one takes his opinion as valid, even if the tanks have been treated to an adequate level by Europa, cutting into them after-wards drastically diminishes the treatment's effectiveness.

    

I'll keep the list updated on the outcome of my tank's adventure, and group pricing for anybody interested.  Of course I won't likely know how effective it has been for another 10 years or so 



Cheers,

    Pete

A239

Ottawa, Canada



PS - when I asked the cynical question of "how do I know you even did anything" I received the following (reassuring?) reply:



"Regarding your assurance that your tank has been treated  properly, we do not ship any items to any one of our customers without our QC  measures in place. Through use of a Thermo Electron Fourier Transform Infrared  Spectrophotometer (FTIR) the ratio of available hydrogen sites that have been  replaced with fluorine in comparison to the available hydrogen sites that have  not been replaced with fluorine can be measured. Every item treated by us  must pass our QC before it is released for return shipment.  "



On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 10:58 PM, Steve Hagar <hagargs(at)earthlink.net (hagargs(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:

    [quote]   Peter:

  

 Have you sent your tank in yet?  I being one who having to "hack my tank out" have a tank that I bought a couple of years ago from Bob Berube.  I don't know how long he had it so its processing is questionable.  I had been planning on fabricating a metal tank for installation when I got around to it so the new plastic tank has been sitting around to be used as a model.  However I may change my mind and put the stock item in it would be good to have the proper processing on it.  If the lot charge could be spread over 2 or more tanks it would be beneficial.  Please  get with me if this is something to be considered.

      

 Thank you ,

  

 Steve Hagar

 A143

 Mesa AZ

 hagargs(at)earthlink.net (hagargs(at)earthlink.net)

  

 

  

 



[b]

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