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capt_riney(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:42 pm Post subject: Need Help with 582 rudder trim

I'm trying to work out in my head which side of the rudder I need to put the trim tab on.  I've got 582 powered mark3 with 3 bladed warp prop. Most of the mark3's I've seen have the trim tab on the left side of the rudder, but I think they were mostly 912 powered and I think that engine rotates opposite the 582.  The 582 rotates clockwise aft looking forward, so I believe I'll need right rudder takeoff



Mark Rinehart

N68MR



Sent from my iPad

byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:14 pm Post subject: Need Help with 582 rudder trim

I'm trying to work out in my head which side of the rudder I need to put  the trim tab on.  I've got 582 powered mark3 with 3 bladed warp prop. Most  of the mark3's I've seen have the trim tab on the left side of the rudder, but I  think they were mostly 912 powered and I think that engine rotates opposite the  582.  The 582 rotates clockwise aft looking forward, so I believe I'll need  right rudder takeoff



Mark Rinehart

N68MR

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

  
	


 I need right rudder on take off,,,, and left rudder  on approach,,,,  the secret to rudder trim is what do you need in straight  and level flight.  for the short time on takeoff and the short time on  glide slope,,  you can use the pedals....   what you want to  eliminate is the constant rudder pressure during the bulk of the flight.   that is what you need to trim out.  tell me what you need in level flight,  not takeoff, climb out, or decent.

  

  

 if you really need right rudder trim in level  flight....   you should put the tab an the left side of the rudder,  and bend it to the left.  that will force the rudder to the  right,   

  

 if you need left rudder in level flight, put the  trim tab on the right and bend it to the right,  that will force the rudder  to the left.

  

  

  

 boyd young

 mkiii utah

   [quote][b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:48 am Post subject: Need Help with 582 rudder trim

At 12:11 AM 2/25/2011, b young wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I'm trying to work out in my head which side of the rudder I need to put the trim tab on.  I've got 582 powered mark3 with 3 bladed warp prop. Most of the mark3's I've seen have the trim tab on the left side of the rudder, but I think they were mostly 912 powered and I think that engine rotates opposite the 582.  The 582 rotates clockwise aft looking forward, so I believe I'll need right rudder takeoff 	


 Fly it first, then decide where the tab needs to be... you might get lucky and not need one at all.



 -Dana

 --

 +REAL+ programmers use EDLIN to create Windows apps

    [quote][b]

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:42 am Post subject: Re: Need Help with 582 rudder trim

Before you put the trim tab on, hold off for a bit until I try out Kolb's new wing shim bracket. We now have about 2.5 hours on the FSII after the rebuild, and like most all 2 stroke powered Kolbs, it wants to roll left and yaw right under power. 

Kolb sells a rear spar bracket that allows you to raise or lower the trailing edge of the wing, and tomorrow we will drop the trailing edge of the left wing by a couple washers and see what happens. The expectation is that it will pick up the left wing and center the ball. If so, no trim tabs needed. Maybe... We'll see...

Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

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Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:41 pm Post subject: Re: Need Help with 582 rudder trim

The results are inconclusive. We dropped the left trailing edge about 3/16". The thinking was as follows: It wants to roll left and yaw right, so we will drop the left trailing edge to pick up the left wing, and the additional drag on the left side will pull the nose left and bring the ball back to the middle. 



In hindsight 3/16" was way too much. It kicked the ball out of the box to the right as the drag on the left side went way up, and it still wanted to roll left. Also it just plain felt screwed up, since it was trying to fly cross-controlled with left roll and left slip. 



So we put it back like it was and I came home - I had flown to a nearby airport for the EAA meeting and burgers, and the wind was constantly increasing as the day progressed, so had to cut things short. My strip is one way in, one way out, and landing with a ten+ mph tailwind is not one of my favorite things to do. So called it quits for today.



Will try dropping it just one washer this next week and see how that does. Also will call Travis tomorrow for advice.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:57 pm Post subject: Need Help with 582 rudder trim

Also it just plain felt screwed up, since it was trying to fly 

cross-controlled with left roll and left slip.



 Richard Pike



Richard P:



A rudder trim tab corrected a similar problem on the last MKIIIx we tested 

three years ago.



I don't think I can describe the way that airplane flew before we got a 

rudder trim tab on it.  Was a very unnatural feeling, as if the controls 

were rigged backwards.  



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:07 am Post subject: Need Help with 582 rudder trim

At 01:41 PM 2/26/11 -0800, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



The results are inconclusive. We dropped the left trailing edge about 3/16". The thinking was as follows: It wants to roll left and yaw right, so we will drop the left trailing edge to pick up the left wing, and the additional drag on the left side will pull the nose left and bring the ball back to the middle. 




	


Richard,



In trying to trim out your plane, it looks like you are getting lost in the 

interaction of too many variables.  One thing you can do to see if the wings 

are set at the same angle of attack is to remove the engine torque from the 

mix.  Climb to altitude and move the throttle to the idle position, and 

maintain your normal cruise speed in a glide with the wings level.  Watch to 

see what the ball does.  If it does not go to zero, you have an asymmetrical 

wing rigging problem.  Kick rudder pedals and move the stick to put the 

plane in a gliding wing level slip to determine which aileron is high and 

which aileron is low.



On the ground adjust wing incidence to correct the above problem, and repeat 

the above flight until the ball zeros in a no power cruise glide.  Then 

check what happens at level flight under power.  At this point you do not 

have very many options.  One can place a tab on an aileron or use a 

bungee/spring to bias the roll system to level the wings at cruise.  This 

action will remove all side stick pressure at cruise.  Then add a tab to the 

rudder or rotate the reduction unit to move the thrust line or a combination 

to bring the ball the rest of the way in. 



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN



Yesterday I saw a kill deer, robins and doves walking around on the snow.  

Spring is coming?

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:16 am Post subject: Re: Need Help with 582 rudder trim

 	  jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne wrote: 	
		  At 01:41 PM 2/26/11 -0800, you wrote:



Richard,



In trying to trim out your plane, it looks like you are getting lost in the 

interaction of too many variables.  One thing you can do to see if the wings 

are set at the same angle of attack is to remove the engine torque from the 

mix.  Climb to altitude and move the throttle to the idle position, and 

maintain your normal cruise speed in a glide with the wings level.  Watch to 

see what the ball does.  If it does not go to zero, you have an asymmetrical 

wing rigging problem.  Kick rudder pedals and move the stick to put the 

plane in a gliding wing level slip to determine which aileron is high and 

which aileron is low.



On the ground adjust wing incidence to correct the above problem, and repeat 

the above flight until the ball zeros in a no power cruise glide.  Then 

check what happens at level flight under power.  At this point you do not 

have very many options.  One can place a tab on an aileron or use a 

bungee/spring to bias the roll system to level the wings at cruise.  This 

action will remove all side stick pressure at cruise.  Then add a tab to the 

rudder or rotate the reduction unit to move the thrust line or a combination 

to bring the ball the rest of the way in. 



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

	




Tried to do that, with the setting as shown in the picture, the wings appear to be at the same angle of attack, however in a power off glide, the ball is slightly out to the left, and the aircraft rolls left. Dropping the left trailing edge and then once again trying a power off glide the ball was way out to the right, and the airplane still rolled left with no changes in roll rate.



I am currently assuming that trim tabs are inevitable, but still open for suggestions on changing the wing angle. In theory (except that we rebuilt a wreck...) I would think it ought to glide straight ahead power off if everything is straight, and it pretty much is. Weather is supposed to be good for three days the middle of this next week, will be doing (hopefully) some more test flights.



To make sure I understand your suggestions correctly, let me read them back with a couple additions to make sure I got the picture. You fly the plane gliding level with the ball centered and then look at the ailerons to see where they are, and then raise or lower the wing with the washers until the ailerons are equal in trail. At this point, I assume that you could turn loose of the stick and it would continue to glide level?



Also at this point you could take your feet off the rudders and the plane would continue to glide straight and level with the ball centered? Or is that an unwarranted assumption, and getting that part fixed requires second step B? Feel free to make suggestions Jack, I consider you the guru in this particular area.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:17 am Post subject: Re: Need Help with 582 rudder trim

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		   Was a very unnatural feeling, as if the controls 

were rigged backwards.  



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama 	




Roger that! That's why I put it back like it was before flying it home.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:33 am Post subject: Need Help with 582 rudder trim

Richard, let us know how rudder trim affects your ride.

BB

On 27, Feb 2011, at 2:17 PM, Richard Pike wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 John Hauck wrote:

> Was a very unnatural feeling, as if the controls 

> were rigged backwards.  

> 

> john h

> mkIII

> Titus, Alabama

 Roger that! That's why I put it back like it was before flying it home.

 Richard Pike

 MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=332211#332211

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:39 pm Post subject: Need Help with 582 rudder trim

Roger that! That's why I put it back like it was before flying it home.



Richard Pike

Richard P:



Initial flight in he newest model MKIIIx resulted in right wing low in 

straight and level flight.  However, to keep the aircraft in that attitude 

required right stick, not left stick.  Felt like every control was out of 

whack.  A couple flight like that and I was ready to give up.



Temporarily stuck a big rudder trim tab on it, same size as on my MKIII. 

Next test flight it flew straight with wings level, trim ball centered. 

Would have never thought this was all it was going to take to get the job 

done.



john h - Kolb tinkerer!!!

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:51 pm Post subject: Need Help with 582 rudder trim

At 11:16 AM 2/27/11 -0800, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  




	


Richard, I have added some thoughts.



 	  Quote: 	
		  

To make sure I understand your suggestions correctly, let me read them back 

with a couple additions to make sure I got the picture. You fly the plane 
	


gliding level with the ball centered and then look at the ailerons to see 

where they are, and then raise or lower the wing with the washers until the 

ailerons are equal in trail. At this point, I assume that you could turn 

loose of the stick and it would continue to glide level?

 	  Quote: 	
		  

First of all even if your plane is perfectly symmetrical in rigging, and 
	


with the throttle closed, it should fall off in the direction that is the 

opposite to the propeller rotation.  Even though the throttle is closed the 

ailerons will have to be moved to counter the propeller driving torque.  

Only with the engine shut off and perfect rigging with some dihedral can you 

expect to let go of the stick and achieve a level glide.  If you glide with 

the wings level, neutral rudder, at your normal cruise speed, and the left 

and right wings are set at the same angle of attack, the side pressure on 

the stick to keep the wings level should be minimal, and the ball should not 

be out very far. And you should be able to apply a little rudder to move the 

ball in.  If this is not the case, I would go back and check the wing rigging.  



While assembling the FireFly, I checked the wing rigging by using clear 

plastic tubing filled with colored water.  First I hung a plumb bob from the 

root tube down to the top of the tail boom tube and adjusted or shimmed the 

wheel axles so that the cage was true vertical. This makes sure the FireFly 

CG is directly below the root tube. Then I hung water levels from tip to tip 

atthe main spar point, and then from front to back at the tip and in close 

to the fuselage.  From these levels one can determine if the wings have 

equal dihedral and twist from the other end and at the wing root from side 

to side.  During construction this was done with A frames supporting the out 

end of the wing panels and shims where used to bring the panels into proper 

alignment and then the strut tubes were slipped into place marked, drilled 

and mounted.



This technique can be used on your aircraft, to see how well you have 

reassembled your aircraft. Small plastic tubing is not very expensive, and 

water levels work.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Also at this point you could take your feet off the rudders and the plane 

would continue to glide straight and level with the ball centered? Or is 
	


that an unwarranted assumption, and getting that part fixed requires second 

step B? 

 	  Quote: 	
		  


	


With the engine running at any power setting, one cannot expect the ball 

will be center, unless the plane has been trimmed out at that speed and 

load.



Sometimes it is necessary to narrow focus by discovering what is not the 

problem.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 3:59 pm Post subject: Re: Need Help with 582 rudder trim

Today I changed the shim again, this time dropping the left wing trailing edge by just one washer. Went flying just before sunset, zero wind and turbulence. WooHoo! With with the throttle back to 3,000 rpm - which I am guessing to be somewhere around zero thrust at the hands off 45 mph glide speed - the airplane just barely rolls left, and the ball is almost centered. It is also very easy to hold the airplane level or roll it right or left with rudder. Under cruise power - which with the 582 is 5,000 rpm for 65 mph - using the stick to hold the wings level has the ball in the middle of the cage. Not sure why that is, wasn't what I was expecting, but I'll take it.



Tomorrow I will install the trim tab for the right aileron and see if that will have it flying hands off. Once it is, will see where the ball ends up, and if it need a tab for the rudder.



Bottom line: Kolb's funky rear wing attach bracket did the job. Thanks guys.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:51 am Post subject: Need Help with 582 rudder trim

Hi Richard,

dont understand why you are so interested in being trimmed accurately in the 

glide. As soon as you apply power it will be wrong. How much time do you 

spend gliding?



Trim it accurately for cruise, surely.



Before you start fixing  bits of tim to the rudder  etc. try some draught 

excluder. I have some which is designed with a flat piece and a tube. 

Normally the flat fixes to a door and the tube fills the gap around a door 

or window.

My Extra tended to roll left. I lowered the trailing edge of the left wing 

to increase the angle of attack and get a bit more lift. A bit of draught 

excluder on the rudder plus Johns patented stick grabber to compensate for 

sitting to one side and she is fine.



Good luck



Pat

cspoke

Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Posts: 32
Location: Lillian, AL

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:29 am Post subject: Re: Need Help with 582 rudder trim

Pat, I also dropped the left trailing edge on my Xtra. I am waiting for calmer winds to start trimming for yaw. Could you give some more information on your draught excluder? How did you attach it. Maybe some pictures? Thanks

_________________
Craig Spoke
Mark111 Xtra
VW Redrive
Lillian, AL
cspoke@mediacombb.net

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: Need Help with 582 rudder trim

 	  pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: 	
		  Hi Richard,

dont understand why you are so interested in being trimmed accurately in the 

glide. As soon as you apply power it will be wrong. How much time do you 

spend gliding?



Trim it accurately for cruise, surely.



Before you start fixing  bits of tim to the rudder  etc. try some draught 

excluder. I have some which is designed with a flat piece and a tube. 

Normally the flat fixes to a door and the tube fills the gap around a door 

or window.

My Extra tended to roll left. I lowered the trailing edge of the left wing 

to increase the angle of attack and get a bit more lift. A bit of draught 

excluder on the rudder plus Johns patented stick grabber to compensate for 

sitting to one side and she is fine.



Good luck



Pat 	


It seems reasonable to me that before you trim the airplane properly for cruise, you start off with an airplane that flies straight in the first place. Like Jack said, you narrow your focus by discovering what is not the problem. Now that I have an airplane that flies properly hands off, everything I do from now on is related to cruise power settings, and I don't have to wonder if the basic platform is whopperjawed. I like that.



Not sure what a draught excluder is, but the gap seal that goes on both the top and bottom sides of the center section leaves no gaps. The only gap around the doors is at the top of each door where the hinge leaves a little bit, approx 1/2" long by 1/8" wide, and I doubt that counts for much.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



PS: Non-Kolb related - does anybody else on the list play World of Tanks? If so, contact me off list, maybe we can make a platoon.

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:06 pm Post subject: Need Help with 582 rudder trim

Not sure what a draught excluder is,>>



Sorry Richard,#

cultural difference. I don`t know what you call it but in the UK a draught 

excluders function is to stop draughts, not on an airplane but around the 

house, where doors and windows don`t fit tightly.

Sometimes it is a narrow strip of sticky backed foam. What I am referring to 

is, in section, a flat piece of rubber about a sixteenth of an inch in 

thickness and half an inch wide. One edge has a rubber tube about the 

diameter of a drinking straw fixed to it. Now imagine that as a simple 

extrusion available in rolls from which you can cut the length required and 

you have it.

I hope that is clear????

It works as a trim when fixed to the trailing edge of control surfaces and 

is almost un noticeable..

Cheers



Pat

Now that you know that I hope the rest of the explanation falls into place.

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:16 pm Post subject: Need Help with 582 rudder trim

How did you attach it. Maybe some pictures? Thanks>>



Craig,



see my reply to Richard about the configuration.

The flat piece in stuck to the control surface so that the tube part is at 

the trailing edge of the control.

I have it fixed to the rudder and for some reason which I now forget, to the 

underside of the port elevator. As both sides of the elevator work in unison 

I cant see the logic for that but it must have seeme dto work at some point.



I think the bungee stick grabber is the most useful part of the set up.

I am away from tonight for around a week. If I can take a pic. and work out 

how to send it I will try on my return



Cheers



Pat

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:56 pm Post subject: Need Help with 582 rudder trim

Pat, you have independently discovered the drinking straw Gurney Flap AKA the drinking stray wicker bill. Instead of forming tape around the straw you've refined it by using a stick on rubber extrusion.



 Rick Girard



On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 1:14 AM, Pat Ladd <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com (pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Pat Ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com (pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com)>

 



 How did you attach it. Maybe some pictures? Thanks>>

 



 Craig,

 

 see my reply to Richard about the configuration.

 The flat piece in stuck to the control surface so that the tube part is at the trailing edge of the control.

 I have it fixed to the rudder and for some reason which I now forget, to the underside of the port elevator. As both sides of the elevator work in unison I cant see the logic for that but it must have seeme dto work at some point.

  

 I think the bungee stick grabber is the most useful part of the set up.

 I am away from tonight for around a week. If I can take a pic. and work out how to send it I will try on my return

 

 Cheers

 

 Pat



 

 

 

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Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:50 am Post subject: Re: Need Help with 582 rudder trim

Rick,



Rick,



Now you've done it. VGs are so 20th century, we must all now install Gurney Flaps on our airplanes because it " increases lift by altering the Kutta condition at the trailing edge.[4][6] The wake behind the flap is a pair of counter-rotating vortices that are alternately shed in a von KÃ¡rmÃ¡n vortex street.[21] ".  according to the wikipedia article. Who can resist a sales pitch like this?



do not archive

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