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cliff(at)7471747.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:36 pm Post subject: Electric Fuel Pump

Are there any proven systems for an electric fuel pump to replace the piston fuel pump and primer?



Sent from iPad



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psb777

Joined: 12 Aug 2009
Posts: 34
Location: UK

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:58 am Post subject: Re: Electric Fuel Pump

Depends what you mean by "proven".

_________________
Paul Beardsell
G-PYAK http://beardsell.com/flying/g-pyak
Yak-18T http://beardsell.com/flying/yak18t

barryhancock

Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 285

Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:11 am Post subject: Re: Electric Fuel Pump

We have developed and installed a backup primer/stand by electric boost pump system that is working quite well in several aircraft.  It is a facet pump tied to a solenoid on the firewall that diverts fuel to the primer side when the up MOM/middle OFF/ down BOOST switch is pushed up.  This gets rid of the plunger type primer and wobble pump on the right side of the cockpit (many times we would redo that right side panel to clean up the holes left by the missing parts).  



We have sold several kits and had no complaints on the installation.  I have one in my plane and I love it.  I actually put a remote primer swtich on the right side of the firewall so I don't have to make that extra trip back up the wing between the pull through to clear the oil and the prime sequence.  Out of all the upgrades I've engineered on the CJ, I think this is my favorite convenience type mod....the electric prime/boost pump itself, is certainly a safety upgrade over the stock system.



Let me know if you have any questions, I'm happy to help any way I can.



Happy Flying,



Barry

_________________
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com

czech6(at)mesanetworks.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:23 pm Post subject: Electric Fuel Pump

If I can get away from pumping and use the panel space for something else I'll do it. Now what?

I'll take one. How much?

Thank you



Bill



On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:11 PM, "barryhancock" <bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 We have developed and installed a backup primer/stand by electric boost pump system that is working quite well in several aircraft.  It is a facet pump tied to a solenoid on the firewall that diverts fuel to the primer side when the up MOM/middle OFF/ down BOOST switch is pushed up.  This gets rid of the plunger type primer and wobble pump on the right side of the cockpit (many times we would redo that right side panel to clean up the holes left by the missing parts).  

 

 We have sold several kits and had no complaints on the installation.  I have one in my plane and I love it.  I actually put a remote primer swtich on the right side of the firewall so I don't have to make that extra trip back up the wing between the pull through to clear the oil and the prime sequence.  Out of all the upgrades I've engineered on the CJ, I think this is my favorite convenience type mod....the electric prime/boost pump itself, is certainly a safety upgrade over the stock system.

 

 Let me know if you have any questions, I'm happy to help any way I can.

 

 Happy Flying,

 

 Barry

 

 --------

 Barry Hancock

 Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.

 (909) 606-4444

 www.worldwidewarbirds.com

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=344606#344606

brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:57 pm Post subject: Electric Fuel Pump

On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 3:17 PM, Bill Geipel <czech6(at)mesanetworks.net (czech6(at)mesanetworks.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Yak-List message posted by: Bill Geipel <czech6(at)mesanetworks.net (czech6(at)mesanetworks.net)>

 

 If I can get away from pumping and use the panel space for something else I'll do it. Now what?

 I'll take one. How much?

	




It seems dead-nuts simple to me. Put in a Facet fuel pump of sufficient capacity in place of the wobble pump. Replumb the oil-dilution solenoid valve to to dump fuel into the primer port instead of the oil sump. (I cannot imagine anyone using oil dilution these days.) I am surprised that it hasn't been done in all CJ's.

 



-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)



   [quote][b]

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:59 pm Post subject: Electric Fuel Pump

Will work for the 52 but the system does not exist on the 50. Next question what is the volume of fuel this system dumps into the supercharger?

Doc



Sent from my iPad



On Jul 1, 2011, at 6:54 PM, Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)> wrote:



[quote]



On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 3:17 PM, Bill Geipel <[url=mailto:czech6(at)mesanetworks.net]czech6(at)mesanetworks.net (czech6(at)mesanetworks.net)[/url]> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Yak-List message posted by: Bill Geipel <[url=mailto:czech6(at)mesanetworks.net]czech6(at)mesanetworks.net (czech6(at)mesanetworks.net)[/url]>

 

 If I can get away from pumping and use the panel space for something else I'll do it. Now what?

 I'll take one. How much?

	




It seems dead-nuts simple to me. Put in a Facet fuel pump of sufficient capacity in place of the wobble pump. Replumb the oil-dilution solenoid valve to to dump fuel into the primer port instead of the oil sump. (I cannot imagine anyone using oil dilution these days.) I am surprised that it hasn't been done in all CJ's.

 



-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

[url=mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com]brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)[/url]

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)



    	  Quote: 	
		  

	


[b]

barryhancock

Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 285

Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: Electric Fuel Pump

Thanks for the replies both on list and off.  To answer the questions:



The kit is $675 for all the parts needed for installation (pump, switch, solenoid, wiring, tubing, installation directions, etc.), or $825 if you want us to bend the tubes (you need a tube bender).  



Your looking at roughly 11-12 hours of labor if you know what you are doing.  Yes, detailed instructions are included, plus phone support if needed.



The pump puts out 4-7 psi and 30 GPH, so it's plenty sufficient in an emergency situation. 



For prime a "one thousand" count roughly equates to one shot on the mechanical primer.



As Brian said,  you could also use the oil dilution valve and switch, but after a lot of study this system is less time consuming and more practical to install with the features we have incorporated into it (i.e. both prime and boost coming off of one switch). 



Last answer is it takes us 5-7 working days to process a kit from the time of order.



Off for the 4th of July weekend to celebrate our forefathers courage and our great nation's goodness.....have a great/safe weekend everyone!



Happy Flying,



Barry

_________________
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com

czech6(at)mesanetworks.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:54 pm Post subject: Electric Fuel Pump

Good for your dead-nuts. I'll take Mr Hancocks proven system. I just can't be good at everything. Electric fuel pumps and flying twins.

I thank God everyday for people like Barry.



Bill



On Jul 1, 2011, at 5:54 PM, Brian Lloyd <[url=mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com]brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)[/url]> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 3:17 PM, Bill Geipel < (czech6(at)mesanetworks.net)[url=mailto:czech6(at)mesanetworks.net]czech6(at)mesanetworks.net (czech6(at)mesanetworks.net)[/url]> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Yak-List message posted by: Bill Geipel < (czech6(at)mesanetworks.net)[url=mailto:czech6(at)mesanetworks.net]czech6(at)mesanetworks.net (czech6(at)mesanetworks.net)[/url]>

 

 If I can get away from pumping and use the panel space for something else I'll do it. Now what?

 I'll take one. How much?

	




It seems dead-nuts simple to me. Put in a Facet fuel pump of sufficient capacity in place of the wobble pump. Replumb the oil-dilution solenoid valve to to dump fuel into the primer port instead of the oil sump. (I cannot imagine anyone using oil dilution these days.) I am surprised that it hasn't been done in all CJ's.

 



-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

 (brian(at)lloyd.com)[url=mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com]brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)[/url]

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)



    	  Quote: 	
		  

	


	




 [quote][b]

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:37 am Post subject: Electric Fuel Pump

For the 52, I'm wondering why not install a Facet pump in the line 

coming from the fuel junction below the front seat (a 6mm line which is 

the input line to the 52's primer pump?  As everyone knows, the 52's 

primer pump primes the "system" side when turned to the left as well as 

the "cylinder" side when turned to the right.  By putting the electric 

pump in this line, all one would have to do is rotate the primer pump 

handle to the left (the system side) and turn on the pump thus pumping 

fuel through the fuel system into the carburetor.  This would work 

extremely well should the engine driven fuel pump give up the ghost.   

Thus the fuel is metered vs. pumping fuel into the supercharger and 

hoping the fuel/air mixture is reasonably correct to keep the engine 

running.



Also, if one wanted to use the electric pump to prime the cylinder side 

(ie: into the supercharger), all one would have to do is turn the primer 

pump handle to the right and turn on the electric fuel pump for a few 

seconds.



I believe this should also work in the 50 since the 50's primer pump 

functions the same way (opposite directions though I believe) as the 52's.

Dennis



A. Dennis Savarese

334-285-6263

334-546-8182 (cell)

Skype: Yakguy1

www.yak-52.com

On 7/1/2011 7:56 PM, Roger Kemp M.D. wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Will work for the 52 but the system does not exist on the 50. Next 

 question what is the volume of fuel this system dumps into the 

 supercharger?

 Doc



 Sent from my iPad



 On Jul 1, 2011, at 6:54 PM, Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com 

 <mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com>> wrote:



> On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 3:17 PM, Bill Geipel <czech6(at)mesanetworks.net 

> <mailto:czech6(at)mesanetworks.net>> wrote:

>

>     

>     <czech6(at)mesanetworks.net <mailto:czech6(at)mesanetworks.net>>

>

>     If I can get away from pumping and use the panel space for

>     something else I'll do it. Now what?

>     I'll take one. How much?

> It seems dead-nuts simple to me. Put in a Facet fuel pump of 

> sufficient capacity in place of the wobble pump. Replumb the 

> oil-dilution solenoid valve to to dump fuel into the primer port 

> instead of the oil sump. (I cannot imagine anyone using oil dilution 

> these days.) I am surprised that it hasn't been done in all CJ's.

>

> -- 

> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

> 3191 Western Dr.

> Cameron Park, CA 95682

> brian(at)lloyd.com <mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com>

> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)

>

> *

> *

 *

 *

okanoganlew(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:24 am Post subject: Electric Fuel Pump

Is the Facet avalible in 24 volt or do you have to do a 12 volt conversion?

 

Paul Lewis

On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 6:34 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)>

  

 For the 52, I'm wondering why not install a Facet pump in the line coming from the fuel junction below the front seat (a 6mm line which is the input line to the 52's primer pump?  As everyone knows, the 52's primer pump primes the "system" side when turned to the left as well as the "cylinder" side when turned to the right.  By putting the electric pump in this line, all one would have to do is rotate the primer pump handle to the left (the system side) and turn on the pump thus pumping fuel through the fuel system into the carburetor.  This would work extremely well should the engine driven fuel pump give up the ghost.   Thus the fuel is metered vs. pumping fuel into the supercharger and hoping the fuel/air mixture is reasonably correct to keep the engine running.

  

 Also, if one wanted to use the electric pump to prime the cylinder side (ie: into the supercharger), all one would have to do is turn the primer pump handle to the right and turn on the electric fuel pump for a few seconds.

  

 I believe this should also work in the 50 since the 50's primer pump functions the same way (opposite directions though I believe) as the 52's.

 Dennis

 

 A. Dennis Savarese

 [url=tel:334-285-6263]334-285-6263[/url]

 [url=tel:334-546-8182]334-546-8182[/url] (cell)

 Skype: Yakguy1

 www.yak-52.com

 

 

 On 7/1/2011 7:56 PM, Roger Kemp M.D. wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   Will work for the 52 but the system does not exist on the 50. Next question what is the volume of fuel this system dumps into the supercharger?

 Doc

 

 Sent from my iPad

 

 On Jul 1, 2011, at 6:54 PM, Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com) <mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)>> wrote:

 

  	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 3:17 PM, Bill Geipel <czech6(at)mesanetworks.net (czech6(at)mesanetworks.net) <mailto:czech6(at)mesanetworks.net (czech6(at)mesanetworks.net)>> wrote:

  

     --> Yak-List message posted by: Bill Geipel



     <czech6(at)mesanetworks.net (czech6(at)mesanetworks.net) <mailto:czech6(at)mesanetworks.net (czech6(at)mesanetworks.net)>>

  

     If I can get away from pumping and use the panel space for

     something else I'll do it. Now what?

     I'll take one. How much?

 

 

 It seems dead-nuts simple to me. Put in a Facet fuel pump of sufficient capacity in place of the wobble pump. Replumb the oil-dilution solenoid valve to to dump fuel into the primer port instead of the oil sump. (I cannot imagine anyone using oil dilution these days.) I am surprised that it hasn't been done in all CJ's.

  

 -- 

 Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

 3191 Western Dr.

 Cameron Park, CA 95682

 

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com) <mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)>

 [url=tel:%2B1.767.617.1365]+1.767.617.1365[/url] (Dominica)

 [url=tel:%2B1.916.877.5067]+1.916.877.5067[/url] (USA)

 



 *

 

 

 *

 	
 *

 

 

 *

 	
 

 ====================================

 rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

 ====================================

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ====================================

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ====================================

 

 

 

 [b]

barryhancock

Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 285

Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:02 am Post subject: Re: Electric Fuel Pump

Two more things I should mention on this:



1)  We have specially made machined fittings that are metric on one side and AN on the other to allow for easy installation into the existing plumbing.  Our rule on kits is if we can't make it easy for the end user, we won't make it.  This adds to the up front expense, obviously (machined specialty fittings are not cheap), but makes it more economical and safer in the long run.



2)  To clarify about Dennis's comment of the system dumping fuel in the supercharger if the engine driven pump fails...our system DOES NOT do that.  This is what the solenoid is for....prime side of the switch puts fuel in the supercharger, boost side of the switch puts it to the carb.  Again, the switch is momentary up for prime, off middle, and on down for boost.



Happy Flying,



Barry

_________________
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:14 am Post subject: Electric Fuel Pump

The system works as is. Now i'm adding one more thing to fail.

Doc

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 2, 2011, at 8:34 AM, "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 For the 52, I'm wondering why not install a Facet pump in the line coming from the fuel junction below the front seat (a 6mm line which is the input line to the 52's primer pump?  As everyone knows, the 52's primer pump primes the "system" side when turned to the left as well as the "cylinder" side when turned to the right.  By putting the electric pump in this line, all one would have to do is rotate the primer pump handle to the left (the system side) and turn on the pump thus pumping fuel through the fuel system into the carburetor.  This would work extremely well should the engine driven fuel pump give up the ghost.   Thus the fuel is metered vs. pumping fuel into the supercharger and hoping the fuel/air mixture is reasonably correct to keep the engine running.

 Also, if one wanted to use the electric pump to prime the cylinder side (ie: into the supercharger), all one would have to do is turn the primer pump handle to the right and turn on the electric fuel pump for a few seconds.

 I believe this should also work in the 50 since the 50's primer pump functions the same way (opposite directions though I believe) as the 52's.

 Dennis

 A. Dennis Savarese

 334-285-6263

 334-546-8182 (cell)

 Skype: Yakguy1

 www.yak-52.com

 On 7/1/2011 7:56 PM, Roger Kemp M.D. wrote:

> Will work for the 52 but the system does not exist on the 50. Next question what is the volume of fuel this system dumps into the supercharger?

> Doc

> 

> Sent from my iPad

> 

> On Jul 1, 2011, at 6:54 PM, Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com <mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com>> wrote:

> 

>> 

>> 

>> On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 3:17 PM, Bill Geipel <czech6(at)mesanetworks.net <mailto:czech6(at)mesanetworks.net>> wrote:

>> 

>>    

>>    <czech6(at)mesanetworks.net <mailto:czech6(at)mesanetworks.net>>

>> 

>>    If I can get away from pumping and use the panel space for

>>    something else I'll do it. Now what?

>>    I'll take one. How much?

>> 

>> 

>> It seems dead-nuts simple to me. Put in a Facet fuel pump of sufficient capacity in place of the wobble pump. Replumb the oil-dilution solenoid valve to to dump fuel into the primer port instead of the oil sump. (I cannot imagine anyone using oil dilution these days.) I am surprised that it hasn't been done in all CJ's.

>> 

>> -- 

>> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

>> 3191 Western Dr.

>> Cameron Park, CA 95682

>> brian(at)lloyd.com <mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com>

>> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

>> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)

>> 

>> *

>> 

>> 

>> *

> *

> 

> 

> *

brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:37 am Post subject: Electric Fuel Pump

On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 6:34 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)>

 

 For the 52, I'm wondering why not install a Facet pump in the line coming from the fuel junction below the front seat (a 6mm line which is the input line to the 52's primer pump?  As everyone knows, the 52's primer pump primes the "system" side when turned to the left as well as the "cylinder" side when turned to the right.  By putting the electric pump in this line, all one would have to do is rotate the primer pump handle to the left (the system side) and turn on the pump thus pumping fuel through the fuel system into the carburetor.  This would work extremely well should the engine driven fuel pump give up the ghost.   Thus the fuel is metered vs. pumping fuel into the supercharger and hoping the fuel/air mixture is reasonably correct to keep the engine running.

  

 Also, if one wanted to use the electric pump to prime the cylinder side (ie: into the supercharger), all one would have to do is turn the primer pump handle to the right and turn on the electric fuel pump for a few seconds.

 	




I have always thought of the primer/fuel pump in the Yak-52 to be the achilles' heel of the Yak-52 fuel system. I have yet to see one that doesn't leak. IMHO the Facet pump is an order of magnitude more reliable than the manual pump. So switching to an electric pump buys you several things:

 an improvement in fuel system integrity;
an improvement in fuel system reliability;
ability to have an adequate fuel flow should the mechanical pump pack it in without manual input;
get fuel off the instrument panel. I could probably go on. Unfortunately I am not going to finish off my project but it was going to have a facet fuel pump replacing the wobble pump and the oil-dilution system was going to become the primer. A single off-on-momentary switch was going to be the boost-pump/primer switch. Left would be off. Center would be boost-pump on. Right would be spring-loaded and would engage the oil-dilution solenoid valve to dump fuel into the supercharger for priming. This makes sense because the boost pump has to be on for the primer to work anyway.

 

But it does sound like Barry has done all the engineering to make it easy to do. This would certainly be one of my first mods if I had a flying CJ. Now for some smart boy or girl to do it for the Yak-52, which IMHO, is worse off than the CJ.

 

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

 

  [quote][b]

brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:38 am Post subject: Electric Fuel Pump

On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 8:22 AM, Paul Lewis <okanoganlew(at)gmail.com (okanoganlew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Is the Facet avalible in 24 volt or do you have to do a 12 volt conversion?

	




Facet fuel pumps are a main-stay of GA aircraft. They have been used in production aircraft for years. They are available in both 14V and 28V versions.

 



-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

 

  [quote][b]

f4ffm2(at)roadrunner.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 9:02 am Post subject: Electric Fuel Pump

In about 1500 hours of flying several different Yak 52's over a period of 12 years, I've had ONE primer leak...easily fixed.



To me, not a big deal.

Roger Baker________________________________________________________________



On Jul 2, 2011, at 9:31 AM, Brian Lloyd wrote:

[quote]



On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 6:34 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)>

 

 For the 52, I'm wondering why not install a Facet pump in the line coming from the fuel junction below the front seat (a 6mm line which is the input line to the 52's primer pump?  As everyone knows, the 52's primer pump primes the "system" side when turned to the left as well as the "cylinder" side when turned to the right.  By putting the electric pump in this line, all one would have to do is rotate the primer pump handle to the left (the system side) and turn on the pump thus pumping fuel through the fuel system into the carburetor.  This would work extremely well should the engine driven fuel pump give up the ghost.   Thus the fuel is metered vs. pumping fuel into the supercharger and hoping the fuel/air mixture is reasonably correct to keep the engine running.

  

 Also, if one wanted to use the electric pump to prime the cylinder side (ie: into the supercharger), all one would have to do is turn the primer pump handle to the right and turn on the electric fuel pump for a few seconds.

 	




I have always thought of the primer/fuel pump in the Yak-52 to be the achilles' heel of the Yak-52 fuel system. I have yet to see one that doesn't leak. IMHO the Facet pump is an order of magnitude more reliable than the manual pump. So switching to an electric pump buys you several things:

 an improvement in fuel system integrity;
an improvement in fuel system reliability;
ability to have an adequate fuel flow should the mechanical pump pack it in without manual input;
get fuel off the instrument panel. I could probably go on. Unfortunately I am not going to finish off my project but it was going to have a facet fuel pump replacing the wobble pump and the oil-dilution system was going to become the primer. A single off-on-momentary switch was going to be the boost-pump/primer switch. Left would be off. Center would be boost-pump on. Right would be spring-loaded and would engage the oil-dilution solenoid valve to dump fuel into the supercharger for priming. This makes sense because the boost pump has to be on for the primer to work anyway.

 

But it does sound like Barry has done all the engineering to make it easy to do. This would certainly be one of my first mods if I had a flying CJ. Now for some smart boy or girl to do it for the Yak-52, which IMHO, is worse off than the CJ.

 

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

 

   	  Quote: 	
		  

	
[b]

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:09 am Post subject: Electric Fuel Pump

It is available in 24 volts.



A. Dennis Savarese

334-285-6263

334-546-8182 (cell)

Skype: Yakguy1

www.yak-52.com

On 7/2/2011 10:22 AM, Paul Lewis wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Is the Facet avalible in 24 volt or do you have to do a 12 volt 

 conversion?

 Paul Lewis



 On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 6:34 AM, A. Dennis Savarese 

 <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net <mailto:dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net>> wrote:



     

     <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net <mailto:dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net>>



     For the 52, I'm wondering why not install a Facet pump in the line

     coming from the fuel junction below the front seat (a 6mm line

     which is the input line to the 52's primer pump?  As everyone

     knows, the 52's primer pump primes the "system" side when turned

     to the left as well as the "cylinder" side when turned to the

     right.  By putting the electric pump in this line, all one would

     have to do is rotate the primer pump handle to the left (the

     system side) and turn on the pump thus pumping fuel through the

     fuel system into the carburetor.  This would work extremely well

     should the engine driven fuel pump give up the ghost.   Thus the

     fuel is metered vs. pumping fuel into the supercharger and hoping

     the fuel/air mixture is reasonably correct to keep the engine running.



     Also, if one wanted to use the electric pump to prime the cylinder

     side (ie: into the supercharger), all one would have to do is turn

     the primer pump handle to the right and turn on the electric fuel

     pump for a few seconds.



     I believe this should also work in the 50 since the 50's primer

     pump functions the same way (opposite directions though I believe)

     as the 52's.

     Dennis



     A. Dennis Savarese

     334-285-6263 <tel:334-285-6263>

     334-546-8182 <tel:334-546-8182> (cell)

     Skype: Yakguy1

     www.yak-52.com <http://www.yak-52.com>

     On 7/1/2011 7:56 PM, Roger Kemp M.D. wrote:



         Will work for the 52 but the system does not exist on the 50.

         Next question what is the volume of fuel this system dumps

         into the supercharger?

         Doc



         Sent from my iPad



         On Jul 1, 2011, at 6:54 PM, Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com

         <mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com> <mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com

         <mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com>>> wrote:



             On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 3:17 PM, Bill Geipel

             <czech6(at)mesanetworks.net <mailto:czech6(at)mesanetworks.net>

             <mailto:czech6(at)mesanetworks.net

             <mailto:czech6(at)mesanetworks.net>>> wrote:



                

             <czech6(at)mesanetworks.net <mailto:czech6(at)mesanetworks.net>

             <mailto:czech6(at)mesanetworks.net

             <mailto:czech6(at)mesanetworks.net>>>

                If I can get away from pumping and use the panel space for

                something else I'll do it. Now what?

                I'll take one. How much?

             It seems dead-nuts simple to me. Put in a Facet fuel pump

             of sufficient capacity in place of the wobble pump.

             Replumb the oil-dilution solenoid valve to to dump fuel

             into the primer port instead of the oil sump. (I cannot

             imagine anyone using oil dilution these days.) I am

             surprised that it hasn't been done in all CJ's.



             -- 

             Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

             3191 Western Dr.

             Cameron Park, CA 95682

             brian(at)lloyd.com <mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com>

             <mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com <mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com>>



             +1.767.617.1365 <tel:%2B1.767.617.1365> (Dominica)

             +1.916.877.5067 <tel:%2B1.916.877.5067> (USA)



             *

             *



         *

         *

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     rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

     ====================================

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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:10 am Post subject: Electric Fuel Pump

Definitely a point to consider.



A. Dennis Savarese

334-285-6263

334-546-8182 (cell)

Skype: Yakguy1

www.yak-52.com

On 7/2/2011 11:09 AM, Roger Kemp M.D. wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 The system works as is. Now i'm adding one more thing to fail.

 Doc



 Sent from my iPad



 On Jul 2, 2011, at 8:34 AM, "A. Dennis Savarese"<dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net>  wrote:



> 

>

> For the 52, I'm wondering why not install a Facet pump in the line coming from the fuel junction below the front seat (a 6mm line which is the input line to the 52's primer pump?  As everyone knows, the 52's primer pump primes the "system" side when turned to the left as well as the "cylinder" side when turned to the right.  By putting the electric pump in this line, all one would have to do is rotate the primer pump handle to the left (the system side) and turn on the pump thus pumping fuel through the fuel system into the carburetor.  This would work extremely well should the engine driven fuel pump give up the ghost.   Thus the fuel is metered vs. pumping fuel into the supercharger and hoping the fuel/air mixture is reasonably correct to keep the engine running.

>

> Also, if one wanted to use the electric pump to prime the cylinder side (ie: into the supercharger), all one would have to do is turn the primer pump handle to the right and turn on the electric fuel pump for a few seconds.

>

> I believe this should also work in the 50 since the 50's primer pump functions the same way (opposite directions though I believe) as the 52's.

> Dennis

>

> A. Dennis Savarese

> 334-285-6263

> 334-546-8182 (cell)

> Skype: Yakguy1

> www.yak-52.com

> On 7/1/2011 7:56 PM, Roger Kemp M.D. wrote:

>> Will work for the 52 but the system does not exist on the 50. Next question what is the volume of fuel this system dumps into the supercharger?

>> Doc

>>

>> Sent from my iPad

>>

>> On Jul 1, 2011, at 6:54 PM, Brian Lloyd<brian(at)lloyd.com<mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com>>  wrote:

>>

>>>

>>> On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 3:17 PM, Bill Geipel<czech6(at)mesanetworks.net<mailto:czech6(at)mesanetworks.net>>  wrote:

>>>

>>>     

>>>     <czech6(at)mesanetworks.net<mailto:czech6(at)mesanetworks.net>>

>>>

>>>     If I can get away from pumping and use the panel space for

>>>     something else I'll do it. Now what?

>>>     I'll take one. How much?

>>>

>>>

>>> It seems dead-nuts simple to me. Put in a Facet fuel pump of sufficient capacity in place of the wobble pump. Replumb the oil-dilution solenoid valve to to dump fuel into the primer port instead of the oil sump. (I cannot imagine anyone using oil dilution these days.) I am surprised that it hasn't been done in all CJ's.

>>>

>>> -- 

>>> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

>>> 3191 Western Dr.

>>> Cameron Park, CA 95682

>>> brian(at)lloyd.com<mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com>

>>> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

>>> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)

>>>

>>> *

>>>

>>>

>>> *

>> *

>>

>>

>> *

>

threein60(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:27 am Post subject: Electric Fuel Pump

As for the CJ... The A-Model of anything can use improvement..



Larry Pine

N8181C

CJ6/m14p



"A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Definitely a point to consider.



A. Dennis Savarese

334-285-6263

334-546-8182 (cell)

Skype: Yakguy1

www.yak-52.com

On 7/2/2011 11:09 AM, Roger Kemp M.D. wrote:

> 

>

> The system works as is. Now i'm adding one more thing to fail.

> Doc

>

> Sent from my iPad

>

> On Jul 2, 2011, at 8:34 AM, "A. Dennis Savarese"<dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net>  wrote:

>

>> 

>>

>> For the 52, I'm wondering why not install a Facet pump in the line coming from the fuel junction below the front seat (a 6mm line which is the input line to the 52's primer pump?  As everyone knows, the 52's primer pump primes the "system" side when turned to the left as well as the "cylinder" side when turned to the right.  By putting the electric pump in this line, all one would have to do is rotate the primer pump handle to the left (the system side) and turn on the pump thus pumping fuel through the fuel system into the carburetor.  This would work extremely well should the engine driven fuel pump give up the ghost.   Thus the fuel is metered vs. pumping fuel into the supercharger and hoping the fuel/air mixture is reasonably correct to keep the engine running.

>>

>> Also, if one wanted to use the electric pump to prime the cylinder side (ie: into the supercharger), all one would have to do is turn the primer pump handle to the right and turn on the electric fuel pump for a few seconds.

>>

>> I believe this should also work in the 50 since the 50's primer pump functions the same way (opposite directions though I believe) as the 52's.

>> Dennis

>>

>> A. Dennis Savarese

>> 334-285-6263

>> 334-546-8182 (cell)

>> Skype: Yakguy1

>> www.yak-52.com

>>

>>

>> On 7/1/2011 7:56 PM, Roger Kemp M.D. wrote:

>>> Will work for the 52 but the system does not exist on the 50. Next question what is the volume of fuel this system dumps into the supercharger?

>>> Doc

>>>

>>> Sent from my iPad

>>>

>>> On Jul 1, 2011, at 6:54 PM, Brian Lloyd<brian(at)lloyd.com<mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com>>  wrote:

>>>

>>>>

>>>> On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 3:17 PM, Bill Geipel<czech6(at)mesanetworks.net<mailto:czech6(at)mesanetworks.net>>  wrote:

>>>>

>>>>     

>>>>     <czech6(at)mesanetworks.net<mailto:czech6(at)mesanetworks.net>>

>>>>

>>>>     If I can get away from pumping and use the panel space for

>>>>     something else I'll do it. Now what?

>>>>     I'll take one. How much?

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> It seems dead-nuts simple to me. Put in a Facet fuel pump of sufficient capacity in place of the wobble pump. Replumb the oil-dilution solenoid valve to to dump fuel into the primer port instead of the oil sump. (I cannot imagine anyone using oil dilution these days.) I am surprised that it hasn't been done in all CJ's.

>>>>

>>>> -- 

>>>> Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

>>>> 3191 Western Dr.

>>>> Cameron Park, CA 95682

>>>> brian(at)lloyd.com<mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com>

>>>> +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

>>>> +1.916.877.5067 (USA)

>>>>

>>>> *

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> *

>>> *

>>>

>>>

>>> *

>>

>>

>>

>

brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:39 pm Post subject: Electric Fuel Pump

On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 9:58 AM, Roger Baker <f4ffm2(at)roadrunner.com (f4ffm2(at)roadrunner.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   In about 1500 hours of flying several different Yak 52's over a period of 12 years, I've had ONE primer leak...easily fixed.

	




I have only flown (front seat) three different ones. All leaked in either the prime or fuel pump position. I suspect that if you really analyzed the hand-plunger type pump you would find it not particularly robust. 

 



Regardless, does anyone here really think they can keep an M14P running on that primer pump used as an aux fuel pump? Really? At least I think you have enough volume with the wobble pump in the CJ to keep it going but I am not nearly as convinced that one could keep a Yak52 in the air on the "aux" pump.

 

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

 

  [quote][b]

radiopicture

Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263

Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:54 pm Post subject: Electric Fuel Pump

My experience has been limited: Two Yak-52s, and both newer models. One of them had a leaky primer. All that was needed to fix it was a new (square) O-ring and I also used fuel-proof grease when I assembled it and periodically thereafter. I never had any problems after that. In non-emergency mode (engine driven fuel pump still working), I think it's fine. There is a place that has about fifteen billion Viton O-rings of every dimension in stock right across the street from me, so I had access to fresh replacements. 



I have tried to keep things as stock as possible, thinking that these engineers have forgotten more than I will ever know. I did consider the Facet pump, and I would note that these days, the factory uses that exact pump as an optional auxiliary, so that says something. I imagine it would suck have to pump that thing while setting up for an emergency landing. Apparently, people have done it, though. 



On Jul 2, 2011, at 4:37 PM, Brian Lloyd wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 9:58 AM, Roger Baker <f4ffm2(at)roadrunner.com (f4ffm2(at)roadrunner.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   In about 1500 hours of flying several different Yak 52's over a period of 12 years, I've had ONE primer leak...easily fixed.

	




I have only flown (front seat) three different ones. All leaked in either the prime or fuel pump position. I suspect that if you really analyzed the hand-plunger type pump you would find it not particularly robust. 

 



Regardless, does anyone here really think they can keep an M14P running on that primer pump used as an aux fuel pump? Really? At least I think you have enough volume with the wobble pump in the CJ to keep it going but I am not nearly as convinced that one could keep a Yak52 in the air on the "aux" pump.

 

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

 

   	  Quote: 	
		  



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Buffalo Skyline

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Office:

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