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kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.
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 Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:17 am Post subject: Europa-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 07/25/11 |
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Fellow Listers,
Almost 3 weeks ago, Tony Renshaw posted the following plea on my behalf. My
apologies for not repsonding before this but circumstances have prevented me
from doing so.
I would sincerely like to thank those who came forward with suggestions
which are now repoduced below together with my responses / comments. The
long and the short of it is that given the remoteness of our landing
aerodrome, the lack of testing equipment and time constraints, we left the
aircraft thankfully in a hangar and intend returning soon to retrieve it
with my trailer.
Tony's posting . . . .
| Quote: | I've got a mate, who we all know, Kingsley, trying to fly a 914 a long
distance downunder that is giving him angst. Its running rough, real
rough. It seems that at boost power it just simply cuts out! Also, in
cruise when going to climb power it has begun to run really rough. He is a
long way from home trying to limp it home, so any suggestions would be
greatly appreciated. To elaborate, he has flown it 2 hours on AVGAS with
no obvious problem until going to climb power when it ran so rough they
had to pull the power back and land ASAP, luckily with an aerodrome
closeby. Now, it runs rough on the ground too….not sure of what power
settings but I recall they can't get boost happening. The local Rotax
agent says that AVGAS with lead can wreck a set of plugs in no time, so,
they have a new set of plugs about to be installed. Fuel will be drained
and high octane super unleaded mogas will be used instead. The system will
be drained. So, I'm wondering if ASAP those in the know can beam downunder
the "good goss" that can help Kingsley get this bird home.
|
BRIAN DAVIS . . . .
| Quote: | Sorry to hear of Kingsley's troubles. It is difficult to diagnose such a
problem remotely but there are a couple of obvious things to check. If
the engine runs smoothly at lower power settings and cuts out at higher
power settings I would strongly suspect a fuel flow restriction as first
guess. I suggest he does a fuel flow check to see if he is getting enough
flow. Next check that there are no air leaks caused by carb mount
failure/pipes adrift/blocked. Check both carbs are opening together/ no
problems with throttle cables.
|
It could be ignition and changing the plugs and fuel at least eliminates
some things but it is unlikely that a short period on Avgas would cause plug
failure.
Response . . .
We are convinced the problem is fuel or rather lack of however, we did fuel
flow tests the result of which was 10 litres over a 4 minute period on each
of the two fuel pumps. This equates to 150 LPH which is more than enough
for the 914. Inspection of the gascolator and another filter revealed they
were as clean as a whistle.
There were no visible signs of any fuel leaks around the float bowls, carb
mounts all appeared normal as did everything else we checked by looking and
feeling. Both carbs opened very smoothly and in unison. Both throttle
valves simultaneously contact idle stops and in turn, the full throttle
stops. There was absolutely no sign of any sticking throttle cables.
We replaced the fuel and fitted new spark plugs only because we were advised
to do so by the Rotax agent. We were not convinced it would have any effect
(and it didn't) but we did as advised because we thought we had nothing to
lose. We now have a spare set of spark plugs as a result of the exercise.
JIM BROWN . . . . .
| Quote: | Try this. turn off the turbo with the Isolation switch....Do a run up, if
you get full power, and no missing, without the turbo, then leave the
turbo out of the circuit and fly home....
The fuel regulator on top of the airbox is bad. As the engine RPM is going
|
to full power, at about 4400 RPM the missing starts.,the fuel regulator on
top of the airbox, is supposed to shut off the return fuel, so that all fuel
is avaiable for the turbo. In other words the engine is starving for fuel
under boost. The engine will run just fine as a non-turbo.....
Response . . . . .
Turning the turbo isolation switch off was one thing we hadn't thought to
try Jim so when Tony relayed your message, I had high hopes it would be the
answer to a maiden's prayer. Alas, it had no effect so you can imagine my
disappointment. I am however convinced the problem IS the fuel pressure
regulator Jim but not having the equipment to do any tests and with very
limited tools available, we were unable to check it. The fact that the
regulator is common to both carbs indicates to me a logical reason why the
engine completely cut like it did on 3 occasions. On one occasion when the
throttle was left open, the engine all but stopped before it fired up again.
This aircraft had not been flown for 2 years and I suspect the diaphragm may
have dried out and become porous or some dried out fuel residue may be in
some orifice or something else just as sinister. I may be talking crap here
because I have not yet seen the inside of a 914 regulator.
Now that I have read your full posting, with hindsight and as a result of
the steep learning curve I have been on regarding the 914, maybe if I had
clamped off the fuel return line somewhat, we may have at least seen some
change in the running to confirm we might be on the right track.
KEVIN KLINEFELTER . . . .
| Quote: | You can check the operation of the turbo wastegate on the ground. Observe
the wastegate arm move through it's test cycle when the master is turned
on, to see if it is sticking.
Sounds like carburators to me. He can inspect and clean the float bowls
|
without removing the carbs from the engine ( 19 mm bolt on the bottom of the
bowls, torque to 5.5nm). Also make sure that the carbs are balanced
Response . . . .
Wastegate works perfectly on turn on thanks Kevin. Have repeatedly observed
it cycle as you suggested. Because of the sophiscated fuel drain trays
under the carbs, we were unable to remove the float bowls and didn't have
sufficient tools to go any further. However, a few weeks before we picked
up the aircraft, a yearly inspection was carried out during which the carbs
were both removed, checked and some gaskets replaced. The carbs were also
balanced. The complete cutting of the engine we experienced leads me to
believe it would not be the carbs because I cannot see two carbs failing
simultaneously except for lack of fuel as aforementioned in my response to
Jim.
WILLIAM DANIELL . . . .
| Quote: | I use 100% AVGAS and in my experience no it doesn't. Plugs last 50 hours
no problem. I have never had a set of plugs foul up in nearly 7 years -
I admit I change them every 25 hours.
I have this sort of issue after an overhaul and it had to do with two
|
things. Part of the problem was one of the tubes from the airbox the carb
had come loose and unbalanced the carbs
Secondly the mating between the turbo and the engine was "out" - which meant
that the turbo was providing too much or too little boost relative to the
power setting. We tested the system by making the wastegate "manual" with
a vernier cable.
Response . . . .
I agree with you about the AVGAS William. The plugs in this engine had only
done 3.5 hrs at the time so it would need to be special Avgas to stuff them
in that amount of time. On inspection, the plugs showed signs of running a
bit lean if anything which would be consistent with the rough running at
higher power settings I would think. There was no sign of lead in them and
during the 4 hour return trip by car to purchase new plugs, we had the
removed plugs tested on a plug tester. All were Ok. I have not yet had the
chance to check the other items you mention William so am unable to comment
on those yet but they will be checked at a later stage thanks.
PAUL McALLISTER . . . .
| Quote: | If Kingsley's airplane only has a couple of hours on it then I'd be
looking at the fuel filters. I pulled an unbelievable amount of crap out
of the filters for the first 50 hours and I was very careful (or so I
thought) to make sure that fuel system was clean before my first flight.
|
Response . . . . .
This aircraft has done 330 hours Paul but nothing for 2 years. As mentioned
earlier, we did check the filters to no avail and a fuel flow check proved
satisfactory. When I finally get to flying my own aircraft Paul, rest
assured your suggestion will be strictly followed.
Thank you again one and all for your contributions. Many heads are
certainly better than a couple as bereft of 914 knowledge as ours were at
the time. I will advise the outcome in due course.
Best regards
Kingsley
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Trevpond(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:21 am Post subject: Europa-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 07/25/11 |
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Kingsley,
I have a 914 Engined XS Trigear.
A year or so ago, I had a rough running engine, had the Rotax Engineer up
just before the problem started to service it, and then the trouble started.
When I did the engine checks, all OK, even tried doing them with the prop
fully coarse, still OK. Start up the runway, push through the gate into
full turbo, then the engine popped and banged and misfired! Float bowls were
checked, filters changed, fuel flow checked, jets checked, airbox rubbers
checked, turbo wastegate checked, just about everything you could think of
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frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:14 am Post subject: Europa-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 07/25/11 |
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On 08/13/2011 01:14 PM, Kingsley Hurst wrote:
| Quote: | The fuel regulator on top of the airbox is bad. As the engine RPM is
going to full power, at about 4400 RPM the missing starts.,the fuel
regulator on top of the airbox, is supposed to shut off the return fuel,
so that all fuel is avaiable for the turbo.
|
No that is not how it works. It just maintains proper fuel pressure over
the airbox pressure. It is just a pressure valve, opening the return if
the pressure gets higher, closing it a bit more when the pressure gets
lower.
Even during full power plenty of fuel returns to the tank. This is
intentional to overcome filter losses and to prevent vapor lock.
This situation again shows the importance of a differential fuel
pressure gauge. Why not install one now permanently, and see what is
going on, now you have to hook up a gauge anyway? It is a must have for
the 914. Without such a gauge you can't tell whether your regulator is
working correctly, or that your filters are clogging, or whatever. If a
differential fuel pressure gauge shows a healthy value you can pretty
much rule out the majority of the fuel related problems.
I would place my bets on the carb slides, just like Trev said. It is
common that after some months out of use the slides get a very small
layer of oxidation due to lack of fuel, and they get a bit "sticky". You
might not notice it on the ground, but temperature changes might be
enough to get the slides stuck during flight. There have been a couple
of crashes exactly due to this phenomenon. If they get sticky they
usually limit the power, or get stuck in the full power configuration
and flood the engine when the pilot reduces power. In both instances the
engine cuts, typically in an awkward situation.
| Quote: | I am however convinced the problem IS the
fuel pressure regulator
|
Without a differential gauge you really can't tell.
| Quote: | Now that I have read your full posting, with hindsight and as a result
of the steep learning curve I have been on regarding the 914, maybe if I
had clamped off the fuel return line somewhat, we may have at least seen
some change in the running to confirm we might be on the right track.
|
It wouldn't tell anything, even if the engine runs better. You might
overcome the improper mixture due to a stuck slide by changing the fuel
pressure outside the normal range, but for sure this fix wouldn't be
airworthy. It would be similar like intentionally clogging the fuel
filter to keep your engine running with the choke stuck in the activated
position. Clogging the fuel filter would make the engine run better in
this situation, but it wouldn't be an airworthy fix either. Never mess
with the fuel return of the 914, or you risk flooding the carbs. Proper
fuel pressure is of utter importance for the 914.
Frans
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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:39 pm Post subject: Europa-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 07/25/11 |
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Kingsley
can't remember but did you check the carbs? Standing for a couple of years isn't good, all sorts of crap comes out of the fuel including sometimes bacteria/yeast deposits which can block small jets in the carbs
I just cleaned my Andair gascolator after a year with not much running and that had a fair amount of sludge in it.
Graham
From: Kingsley Hurst <kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.au>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, 13 August, 2011 12:14:19
Subject: Re: Re: Europa-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 07/25/11
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" <kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.au (kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.au)>
Fellow Listers,
Almost 3 weeks ago, Tony Renshaw posted the following plea on my behalf. My apologies for not repsonding before this but circumstances have prevented me from doing so.
I would sincerely like to thank those who came forward with suggestions which are now repoduced below together with my responses / comments. The long and the short of it is that given the remoteness of our landing aerodrome, the lack of testing equipment and time constraints, we left the aircraft thankfully in a hangar and intend returning soon to retrieve it with my trailer.
Tony's posting . . . .
| Quote: | I've got a mate, who we all know, Kingsley, trying to fly a 914 a long distance downunder that is giving him angst. Its running rough, real rough. It seems that at boost power it just simply cuts out! Also, in cruise when going to climb power it has begun to run really rough. He is a long way from home trying to limp it home, so any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. To elaborate, he has flown it 2 hours on AVGAS with no obvious problem until going to climb power when it ran so rough they had to pull the power back and land ASAP, luckily with an aerodrome closeby. Now, it runs rough on the ground too….not sure of what power settings but I recall they can't get boost happening. The local Rotax agent says that AVGAS with lead can wreck a set of plugs in no time, so, they have a new set of plugs about to be installed. Fuel will be drained and high octane super unleaded mogas will be used instead. The system will be drained. So, I'm wondering if ASAP those in the know can beam downunder the "good goss" that can help Kingsley get this bird home.
|
BRIAN DAVIS . . . .
| Quote: | Sorry to hear of Kingsley's troubles. It is difficult to diagnose such a problem remotely but there are a couple of obvious things to check. If the engine runs smoothly at lower power settings and cuts out at higher power settings I would strongly suspect a fuel flow restriction as first guess. I suggest he does a fuel flow check to see if he is getting enough flow. Next check that there are no air leaks caused by carb mount failure/pipes adrift/blocked. Check both carbs are opening together/ no problems with throttle cables.
|
It could be ignition and changing the plugs and fuel at least eliminates some things but it is unlikely that a short period on Avgas would cause plug failure.
Response . . .
We are convinced the problem is fuel or rather lack of however, we did fuel flow tests the result of which was 10 litres over a 4 minute period on each of the two fuel pumps. This equates to 150 LPH which is more than enough for the 914. Inspection of the gascolator and another filter revealed they were as clean as a whistle.
There were no visible signs of any fuel leaks around the float bowls, carb mounts all appeared normal as did everything else we checked by looking and feeling. Both carbs opened very smoothly and in unison. Both throttle valves simultaneously contact idle stops and in turn, the full throttle stops. There was absolutely no sign of any sticking throttle cables.
We replaced the fuel and fitted new spark plugs only because we were advised to do so by the Rotax agent. We were not convinced it would have any effect (and it didn't) but we did as advised because we thought we had nothing to lose. We now have a spare set of spark plugs as a result of the exercise.
JIM BROWN . . . . .
| Quote: | Try this. turn off the turbo with the Isolation switch....Do a run up, if you get full power, and no missing, without the turbo, then leave the turbo out of the circuit and fly home....
The fuel regulator on top of the airbox is bad. As the engine RPM is going to full power, at about 4400 RPM the missing starts.,the fuel regulator on top of the airbox, is supposed to shut off the return fuel, so that all fuel is avaiable for the turbo. In other words the engine is starving for fuel under boost. The engine will run just fine as a non-turbo.....
|
Response . . . . .
Turning the turbo isolation switch off was one thing we hadn't thought to try Jim so when Tony relayed your message, I had high hopes it would be the answer to a maiden's prayer. Alas, it had no effect so you can imagine my disappointment. I am however convinced the problem IS the fuel pressure regulator Jim but not having the equipment to do any tests and with very limited tools available, we were unable to check it. The fact that the regulator is common to both carbs indicates to me a logical reason why the engine completely cut like it did on 3 occasions. On one occasion when the throttle was left open, the engine all but stopped before it fired up again. This aircraft had not been flown for 2 years and I suspect the diaphragm may have dried out and become porous or some dried out fuel residue may be in some orifice or something else just as sinister. I may be talking crap here because I have not yet seen the inside of a 914 regulator.
Now that I have read your full posting, with hindsight and as a result of the steep learning curve I have been on regarding the 914, maybe if I had clamped off the fuel return line somewhat, we may have at least seen some change in the running to confirm we might be on the right track.
KEVIN KLINEFELTER . . . .
| Quote: | You can check the operation of the turbo wastegate on the ground. Observe the wastegate arm move through it's test cycle when the master is turned on, to see if it is sticking.
Sounds like carburators to me. He can inspect and clean the float bowls without removing the carbs from the engine ( 19 mm bolt on the bottom of the bowls, torque to 5.5nm). Also make sure that the carbs are balanced
|
Response . . . .
Wastegate works perfectly on turn on thanks Kevin. Have repeatedly observed it cycle as you suggested. Because of the sophiscated fuel drain trays under the carbs, we were unable to remove the float bowls and didn't have sufficient tools to go any further. However, a few weeks before we picked up the aircraft, a yearly inspection was carried out during which the carbs were both removed, checked and some gaskets replaced. The carbs were also balanced. The complete cutting of the engine we experienced leads me to believe it would not be the carbs because I cannot see two carbs failing simultaneously except for lack of fuel as aforementioned in my response to Jim.
WILLIAM DANIELL . . . .
| Quote: | I use 100% AVGAS and in my experience no it doesn't. Plugs last 50 hours no problem. I have never had a set of plugs foul up in nearly 7 years - I admit I change them every 25 hours.
I have this sort of issue after an overhaul and it had to do with two things. Part of the problem was one of the tubes from the airbox the carb had come loose and unbalanced the carbs
|
Secondly the mating between the turbo and the engine was "out" - which meant that the turbo was providing too much or too little boost relative to the power setting. We tested the system by making the wastegate "manual" with
a vernier cable.
Response . . . .
I agree with you about the AVGAS William. The plugs in this engine had only done 3.5 hrs at the time so it would need to be special Avgas to stuff them in that amount of time. On inspection, the plugs showed signs of running a bit lean if anything which would be consistent with the rough running at higher power settings I would think. There was no sign of lead in them and during the 4 hour return trip by car to purchase new plugs, we had the removed plugs tested on a plug tester. All were Ok. I have not yet had the chance to check the other items you mention William so am unable to comment on those yet but they will be checked at a later stage thanks.
PAUL McALLISTER . . . .
| Quote: | If Kingsley's airplane only has a couple of hours on it then I'd be looking at the fuel filters. I pulled an unbelievable amount of crap out of the filters for the first 50 hours and I was very careful (or so I thought) to make sure that fuel system was clean before my first flight.
|
Response . . . . .
This aircraft has done 330 hours Paul but nothing for 2 years. As mentioned earlier, we did check the filters to no avail and a fuel flow check proved satisfactory. When I finally get to flying my own aircraft Paul, rest assured your suggestion will be strictly followed.
Thank you again one and all for your contributions. Many heads are certainly better than a couple as bereft of 914 knowledge as ours were at the time. I will advise the outcome in due course.
Best regards
K href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List" target="_blank">p; -Matt Dralle, Libution" =======
[quote][b]
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kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:53 pm Post subject: Europa-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 07/25/11 |
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Trev,
Many thanks for this heads-up. As I said in my posting, the carbs were removed and checked during the inspection and since I have no reason to doubt the integrity of the engineer, I have been tending to believe they should not be causing trouble. I have seen stranger things happen in the past so rest assured I will definitely check out the slides once I have the means to be able to do so.
Really do appreciate the input from you 914 fellows.
Cheers
Kingsley
[quote] ---
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kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:23 pm Post subject: Europa-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 07/25/11 |
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Hello Frans and thank you too for your input.
| Quote: | No that is not how it works. It just maintains proper fuel pressure over
the airbox pressure. It is just a pressure valve, opening the return if
the pressure gets higher, closing it a bit more when the pressure gets
lower.
|
I was unaware of how the regulator works and still am to a large degree.
What you say makes sense and when I get a chance to read some 914
literature, I hope to understand a lot more things about the 914.
| Quote: | This situation again shows the importance of a differential fuel
pressure gauge. Why not install one now permanently, and see what is
going on, now you have to hook up a gauge anyway? It is a must have for
the 914. Without such a gauge you can't tell whether your regulator is
working correctly, or that your filters are clogging, or whatever. If a
differential fuel pressure gauge shows a healthy value you can pretty
much rule out the majority of the fuel related problems.
|
After the experience we had and seeing where the fuel pressure is taken from
on this aircraft, I couldn't agree with you more Frans. Subsequent to
viewing the Rotax Owners video on testing the regulator, I had already
decided that a differential fuel pressure gauge is the meaningful way to go.
The fuel pressure readings we are getting on this aircraft are next to
useless on a 914.
| Quote: | I would place my bets on the carb slides, just like Trev said. It is
common that after some months out of use the slides get a very small
layer of oxidation due to lack of fuel, and they get a bit "sticky".
|
As I said to Trev, this will be thoroughly checked out and now that I have
been made aware of this phenomenon, I am certainly not discounting this as
the cause.
| Quote: | > I am however convinced the problem IS the
> fuel pressure regulator
Without a differential gauge you really can't tell.
|
Well you will be pleased to know I am now not so convinced given the
revelations about the carb slides. I agree that without a differential
gauge I won't be able to tell and this is another test that I will be
carrying out.
| Quote: | > Now that I have read your full posting, with hindsight and as a result
> of the steep learning curve I have been on regarding the 914, maybe if I
> had clamped off the fuel return line somewhat, we may have at least seen
> some change in the running to confirm we might be on the right track.
It wouldn't tell anything, even if the engine runs better. You might
overcome the improper mixture due to a stuck slide by changing the fuel
pressure outside the normal range, but for sure this fix wouldn't be
airworthy. It would be similar like intentionally clogging the fuel
filter to keep your engine running with the choke stuck in the activated
position. . . . . . . .
|
I wasn't for a moment suggesting that restricting the return line would be a
FIX Frans, rather, I thought that in the middle of nowhere like we were (up
the creek without a paddle so to speak!) it just might have been a method to
help diagnose the problem but as you have pointed out, it might also have
given us a bum steer.
Thanks again Frans.
Kingsley
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kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:44 pm Post subject: Europa-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 07/25/11 |
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G'day Graham,
> can't remember but did you check the carbs? Standing for a couple of years isn't good, all sorts of crap comes out of the fuel including sometimes bacteria/yeast deposits which can block small jets in the > carbs
No we didn't check the carbs Graham because we didn't have the means to be able to do so. The engineer who completed the inspection however, assured us that he had checked them thoroughly. Once we get the aircraft home, I will be able to check all items put forward by our fellow Europa owners and will hopefully be able to advise the outcome. This might take some time however because we are in the process of shifting house, getting a hangar built, doing final touches to the trailer to enable a 4,000 km round trip to rescue the aircraft and so it goes on . . .. . Arrrrrh !
> I just cleaned my Andair gascolator after a year with not much running and that had a fair amount of sludge in it.
On checking our gascolator, I found it could not have been cleaner thanks mate.
My son and I were so much looking forward to a great trip home but it wasn't to be. As well as the eventual engine problem, we couldn't go home the way we wished to go because of the shocking weather Melbourne put on for us. It was for this reason, we tried to go around the coast ending up in Mallacoota, the most South Easterly seaside township on the Australian mainland. Just a bit of trivia!
Cheers
Kingsley
[quote][b]
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