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Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic

 
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timwarlick



Joined: 16 Jan 2010
Posts: 7
Location: Tucson, AZ

PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:30 pm    Post subject: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic Reply with quote

Has anyone bought and installed the tube steel legs in their MK3 Classic? How long did it take? How much did it change the stance? Any difference on landing?

Thanks,

Tim


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:49 am    Post subject: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic Reply with quote

Tim, several of us have. It is a fairly simple procedure. Support the cage, remove the old, slide in the new ones (a little grease helps)
install the wheels temporarily for alignment and mark the sleeve to leg holes. I used a scribe for the out lines. Remove again,
center punch and drill.
The only difference in landing is a slightly higher perspective at touchdown. Handling is a little more lively and you can kick the tail easier.
The best benefit IMO is that you can pick it off the ground at barely flying speed and then accelerate in ground effect. -good for
bumpy or soft fields.
BB

On 22, Mar 2010, at 11:30 PM, timwarlick wrote:

Quote:


Has anyone bought and installed the tube steel legs in their MK3 Classic? How long did it take? How much did it change the stance? Any difference on landing?

Thanks,

Tim

--------
Tim
BMW powered Kolb Mk 3 Classic
Tucson, AZ




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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:31 am    Post subject: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic Reply with quote

Tim/All

A few of us have the older style solid spring steel gear legs. They only
increase the ride height by maybe 1 inch in my Classic. They give a very
smooth ride (reportedly much smoother than the new tubular legs) but can
launch you back in the air if you land hard. I would like the higher stance
but wouldn't change from what I have now. I purchased them used from another
Kolb driver that didn't like them because they were too springy.

Does anyone know if my gear legs can be bent down to give a higher stance.
The wheels tip in at the top now so bending would give a better more
vertical appearance when the plane is loaded.

Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC

---


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:21 am    Post subject: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic Reply with quote

tRick,
 
  If you bend spring steel past it's point of spring returning point, you create a molecular hazard in the steel's crystalline structure.  Failure at that bend location is eminent!
 
  For all practical purposes, no, you can not bend your gear legs.  Well, you can,  but it probably wouldn't be worth it.
 
Here's why:  They are presently spring steel.  If you bent them THAT much, this would likely induce stress fractures. 
  So, rather than just bend them, what you would have to do is heat them up, and remove the spring treatment (this is often referred to the steel losing it's "tempering"). 
  Next, you could then bend them to your new shape. 
  Lastly, you would need to reheat treat them to your preferred Rockwell hardness number.
 
  For all the crap you'd have to go through, in a nutshell, it would better to buy or make new ones, than bend spring steel old ones.
 
Mike Welch
MkIII
 

 
[quote] From: NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 12:29:22 -0400

--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net>

Tim/All

A few of us have the older style solid spring steel gear legs. They only
increase the ride height by maybe 1 inch in my Classic. They give a very
smooth ride (reportedly much smoother than the new tubular legs) but can
launch you back in the air if you land hard. I would like the higher stance
but wouldn't change from what I have now. I purchased them used from another
Kolb driver that didn't like them because they were too springy.

Does anyone know if my gear legs can be bent down to give a higher stance.
The wheels tip in at the top now so bending would give a better more
vertical appearance when the plane is loaded.

Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC

---


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John Hauck



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:45 am    Post subject: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic Reply with quote

If you bend spring steel past it's point of spring returning point, you create a molecular hazard in the steel's crystalline structure. Failure at that bend location is eminent!


For all the crap you'd have to go through, in a nutshell, it would better to buy or make new ones, than bend spring steel old ones.

Mike Welch


Mike W/Gang:

The way I fly it is eminent my gear legs get bent. This last set I made up, after my crash at Muncho Lake, BC, in 2000, has been straightened three times, if I am remembering correctly. I bent them pretty good last year trying to takeoff out of Grants, NM, with John B and Bruce C, never straightened them. They don't look so bad and I will fly this year without pressing them straight.

To be able to bend the gear leg without failure is one of the reasons I only treat to around 48RC.

I straighten the bends out of my legs on a press. Made up some 2X4 wooden blocks to hold them and allow the press to push them well past center. It always frightens me that they have to go so far past center to get the bend out of them.


Never had one of my legs fail because I straightened them.


john hauck
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:55 am    Post subject: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic Reply with quote

Has anyone bought and installed the tube steel legs in their MK3 Classic? How long did it take? How much did it change the stance? Any difference on landing?

Thanks,

Tim

Quote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I put the solid tapered steel gear in my mkIII... seems it widened the stance 3 to 4 inches per side. and made it a bit taller as well. the gear seems ok... but I have been tempted to build the gear legs and have them heat treated and give that a try.

my biggest complaint with the steel gear legs is that they bent the lower end for the wheels at too much of an angle. and it looked squatted down from the day I mounted the engine.

the plane rides smoother than with the alum gear. and I can't tell any difference in ground handling. the change over probably took a day. drilling the gear for the mounting bolt was probably the worse.

boyd Young

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:35 am    Post subject: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic Reply with quote

I learn something new every day. I wasn't aware they made solid steel legs. Was the diameter smaller to make up for the weight gain?
The hollow ones I bought from TNK are a touch more springy than the aluminum legs but do not ride as smooth. (hard to explain Smile

I've whacked 'em pretty good on occasion but haven't seen any change in shape. Must be sturdy.
The aluminum legs, of which I have two serviceable pairs sitting on the Kolb shelf, tend to take a little set no matter what you do to them.

Drilling the TNK supplied versions wasn't a problem. I don't bother with jigging up on the drill press since I'm notoriously bad at it.
I drill from each side to the middle with a slightly undersized bit and clean the bore to true with the right size.
This is the idiot proof method.

Wet and dismal here in upstate NY after two weeks of false but welcome spring. I pulled out my ancient poly tanks and swapped the plumbing to
new ones. After grinding through a formidable stack of IRS forms I'll get them back in.
BB

On 23, Mar 2010, at 12:29 PM, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote:

[quote]

Tim/All

A few of us have the older style solid spring steel gear legs. They only increase the ride height by maybe 1 inch in my Classic. They give a very smooth ride (reportedly much smoother than the new tubular legs) but can launch you back in the air if you land hard. I would like the higher stance but wouldn't change from what I have now. I purchased them used from another Kolb driver that didn't like them because they were too springy.

Does anyone know if my gear legs can be bent down to give a higher stance. The wheels tip in at the top now so bending would give a better more vertical appearance when the plane is loaded.

Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC

---


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:24 am    Post subject: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic Reply with quote

Mike W/Gang:
 
The way I fly it is eminent my gear legs get bent.  
To be able to bend the gear leg without failure is one of the reasons I only treat to around 48RC. 
Never had one of my legs fail because I straightened them.
john hauck
mkIII
Titus, Alabama 
 
John H,
 
  Bending hardened steel is a relative term, I guess I should have said  "It depends on the hardness, the degree of bend, and some other factors."  So, yes, I agree, you can bend
"some" hardeded steel.
 
  I recall one time when I bought a Mitsubishi 4x4 tractor, and got the dinky 7' backhoe to go with it.  I don't treat my construction equipment lightly, so needless to say, I bent the main cylinder the very first day.  45 degree bend on a straight shaft, looked like a broken arm!!!   This was the 1.5" solid steel shaft.
  I took the cylinder apart, put it in a press, bend it back to near perfect......and quietly tooked the backhoe back to my dealer.  I said "take it back, and order me the next bigger model".  For the additional $3800, I never bent anything on it again.
 
Mike Welch
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John Hauck



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:36 pm    Post subject: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic Reply with quote

Bending hardened steel is a relative term, I guess I should have said "It depends on the hardness, the degree of bend, and some other factors." So, yes, I agree, you can bend
"some" hardeded steel.

Mike Welch
[quote] Mike W/Gang:No sweat. We are talking about 4130 gear legs on Kolb aircraft. Most all are using 48rc.Started experimenting with them in 1987. First ones were 42rc because that is what Maxair was using on their 4130 gear legs. Way to soft. Next set we went to 48rc and never looked back.A few years later, old Kolb came out with solide 4130 legs. New Kolb came out with 4130 tubular legs with a bend in order to compensate for the low angle of the gear leg sockets.john hauckmkIIITitus, Alabama [b]


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:22 pm    Post subject: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic Reply with quote

Rob,
The legs reduce in dia.almost flush with the socket,to about 1/2 "smaller then taper to the wheel to about 5/8".Not exact dimensions but close.I didn't know how rough Blackwater field was until I landed Joe Sable's MK3C with 4130 tube gear on it.Gonna let some air out of them tires.

G.Aman MK3 C spring steel legs






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GeoB



Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 207
Location: Fresno, CA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:50 am    Post subject: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic Reply with quote

Quote:
Failure at that bend location is eminent!

Not quite certain of that I think. Certainly worth watching though.

Quote:
This last set I made up <snip> has been straightened three times
john hauck


I have a much modified 4x4. I suppose I abuse it. I call it my chew-toy. I do rock-crawling, dune-bashing, jumps, tows, sand drags, etc. I have regeared the tranny and the t-case. I have pumped up the engine, put lockers in the diffs, and run big gnarly tires. The suspension is nothing like stock.

The torque I send to the tires bends springs all the time. It's just the front springs now since I put a tract bar in the rear. I straighten them all the time on my press. I haven't had to replace a leaf yet. The potential consequences of a failure are profound, maybe I better inspect them more often.

It is true that bending a spring past the 'elastic deformation' into the 'plastic' introduces dislocations [1] in the atomic metalic matrix of the metal. This has a tendency to make the metal stiffer at that point. It is called work-hardedning. We use this technique all the time in metal products.

If you put a coat hanger into your wood stove for a few hours, you won't be able to use it as a coat hanger anymore. It will not support a coat! You will have 'annealed' it, and allowed these dislocations to relax back into a smooth matrix, which bends easily.

[1] like an earthquake fault sorta. A break in the crystaline structure. It tends to jam the movement of one row of atoms against the other. Like putting a monkey wrench in the gears or nailing two boards together. As in the carbon atoms in steel... it works similarly.

GeoB


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:08 pm    Post subject: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic Reply with quote

At 09:39 AM 3/24/10 -0700, you wrote:
Quote:


> Failure at that bend location is eminent!

Not quite certain of that I think. Certainly worth watching though.


Geo & Folks,

Each time you over bend into the plastic region work hardening takes place.
When you straighten the leg the over stretched portion does not shrink back
into place due to the work hardening. The opposite side does the stretching
into the plastic region so that the leg can be straighten. And so now both
sides are work hardened.

If you bend the leg again in the same manner as the leg was imposed to
before, more than likely, it will bend in the region just above over below
the previous area of work hardening. If the bending is minor, this will let
the leg be straightened several times, until the work hardened area must
bend again. And then the process will repeat and can be repeated until the
work hardened area becomes brittle, and then failure will occur.

FWIW

Jack B Hart FF004
Winchester, IN


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:01 pm    Post subject: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic Reply with quote

>And then the process will repeat and can be repeated until the
Quote:
work hardened area becomes brittle, and then failure will occur.
FWIW

Jack B Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
 

Jack, George and group,
 
  I think you are both saying basically what I said.  But, I made a blanket statement "you can't do it."
  The fact is...you can.
 
  The only question is; for how long, and how many times?  That would depend, of course,  on a million variables that are too lengthy to get into.
 
  So, suffice to say this:  When you bend hardened steel beyond it's elasticity, and then you bend it back, bad ju-ju may happen!!
 
  There, I cleared that one up!!
 
Best regards,
Mike Welch
 
   

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John Hauck



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:23 pm    Post subject: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic Reply with quote

So, suffice to say this: When you bend hardened steel beyond it's elasticity, and then you bend it back, bad ju-ju may happen!!

There, I cleared that one up!!

Best regards,
Mike Welch


Mike W/Gang:

I think you guys missed my point.

I am having pretty good success with gear legs I built in 2001. Made two flights to Alaska on these legs. Bent them enough to pull and straighten them three times. They have been stressed many times in the last 9 years.

I understand the theory of work hardening. In the case of my gear legs, I am getting great service from them, even after "really" pranging them last May in NM for the fourth time.

If I thought my gear legs were going to break next time I taxied across my cow pasture, I'd go build some new ones. I think these legs will outlast you and me.

john hauck
mkIII - 6,733 landings (Probably 3,000 on present gear legs.)
Titus, Alabama


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:57 pm    Post subject: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic Reply with quote

I think the concept that Jack made is enlightening. The new hard point will not flex, so outboard in both directionsnew areas become the default flex points until they too will not flex, and on, until the whole system yields at the most
vulnerable point because there is no more flexible area left.
Out of curiosity, a report of the actual break location of both the steel and aluminum legs would be interesting.
BB
On 24, Mar 2010, at 5:00 PM, Mike Welch wrote:
Quote:
>And then the process will repeat and can be repeated until the
Quote:
work hardened area becomes brittle, and then failure will occur.
FWIW

Jack B Hart FF004
Winchester, IN

Jack, George and group,

I think you are both saying basically what I said. But, I made a blanket statement "you can't do it."
The fact is...you can.

The only question is; for how long, and how many times? That would depend, of course, on a million variables that are too lengthy to get into.

So, suffice to say this: When you bend hardened steel beyond it's elasticity, and then you bend it back, bad ju-ju may happen!!

There, I cleared that one up!!

Best regards,
Mike Welch


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Richard Pike



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic Reply with quote

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote:
Tim/All

A few of us have the older style solid spring steel gear legs. They only
increase the ride height by maybe 1 inch in my Classic. They give a very
smooth ride (reportedly much smoother than the new tubular legs) but can
launch you back in the air if you land hard. I would like the higher stance
but wouldn't change from what I have now. I purchased them used from another
Kolb driver that didn't like them because they were too springy.

Does anyone know if my gear legs can be bent down to give a higher stance.
The wheels tip in at the top now so bending would give a better more
vertical appearance when the plane is loaded.

Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC

---


I have a set of those for my MKIII, and the next time I prang the aluminum gear, I will probably install them. Called Travis earlier this week and asked him if he knew what the hardness was. He told me that they were built by this company
http://www.langair.com/
and to ask Mr. Lang. I have emailed him and asked, but he has not yet replied. May have to call him.

Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)


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robhock



Joined: 26 Aug 2011
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:18 am    Post subject: Re: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic Reply with quote

Hi Folks. Just joined this site but like others here I'm interested in getting steel legs for my Kolb Twinstar Mk3. Where do I get them though? I'm in the UK so would prefer to get them locally but resigned to have to order them from the States.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:43 am    Post subject: Tube steel legs for Kolb MK3 Classic Reply with quote

Order them straight from Kolb. Not cheap but you will love them.
BB
MkIII, suzuki

On Aug 27, 2011, at 5:18 AM, robhock wrote:

Quote:

<robhocking(at)robhocking.karoo.co.uk>

Hi Folks. Just joined this site but like others here I'm interested
in getting steel legs for my Kolb Twinstar Mk3. Where do I get them
though? I'm in the UK so would prefer to get them locally but
resigned to have to order them from the States.


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