Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

40 MPH Stall
Goto page 1, 2 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

Ralph Hoover

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 206
Location: Central Ohio

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:36 pm Post subject: 40 MPH Stall

 Kolbers. I have a problem. My 1990 Kolb Firestar KXP single seat, with 503 DIDC has a stall speed of 40 MPH plus. Now this is in calm air in late fall. Twice my instructor has flown it, as I am still in the instruct-ee's seat.  And both time, because I have specifically asked "what speed does it stall?", the reply has been the same...40 ish!

  

There are no holes anywhere. It has a complete enclosure, with the exception of backside. It has the alerons stits covering (underside) between the alerons and the wing. According to my instructor it flys like a home sick angle. He said that it doesn't have any side to side misallignment and the stick stays streight for streight flight. I have looked under the motor to see if perhaps the motor is raised or lowered from flat. It's not. 



HELP !!!    



I won't mind landing at 45-50 in calm air if I have too. But when I hear the average from the Kolb site and from THNK Company and Travis as being closer to 25 MPH, I gotta think I have a problem. Now my instructor weighs in about 190# and I and the previous owner at around 230 #. There is nothing different about the plane from the origional plans that I can find except the longer legs, which would not or should not effect it's flight charistics to any degree. I have not weighed it or checked its balance for location of center of gravity, but again my instructor didn't feel that it was very far off if at all. Somehow I have to gets my hands on three 300# mechanical scales to check this area out. But still where in your humble opinion(s) does the problem lie (or lay)? My last thought might be something regarding adjusting the aleron rods in or out (up or down on the alerons). Could these be the calprets! (^%$^%#$%^ spell checker)!!    



New Kolber with a desire to know (as well as a need).

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:16 pm Post subject: 40 MPH Stall

Get a good GPS and go fly some 120 degree triangles in the stillest air 

you can find, take notes, fly at 45, 55, 65, and see if your airspeed 

indicator is flawed. Ours was.



Also, we tried having the pitot come out above the nose cowling and 

curve forward, and never got a decent result. It has to either come out 

the nose or below the nose to work right ( at least that was out 

experience) Eventually we learned that the pitot has to be in an 

acceptable place, (and we also have the static air right beside it) and 

a faulty airspeed indicator will really waste a lot of your time.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

FSII N582EF



Ralph Hoover wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



 Kolbers. I have a problem. My 1990 Kolb Firestar KXP single seat, with 503 DIDC has a stall speed of 40 MPH plus. Now this is in calm air in late fall. Twice my instructor has flown it, as I am still in the instruct-ee's seat.  And both time, because I have specifically asked "what speed does it stall?", the reply has been the same...40 ish!

 [Evil or Very Mad] 

There are no holes anywhere. It has a complete enclosure, with the exception of backside. It has the alerons stits covering (underside) between the alerons and the wing. According to my instructor it flys like a home sick angle. He said that it doesn't have any side to side misallignment and the stick stays streight for streight flight. I have looked under the motor to see if perhaps the motor is raised or lowered from flat. It's not. 



HELP !!! [Crying or Very sad]  [Crying or Very sad] 



I won't mind landing at 45-50 in calm air if I have too. But when I hear the average from the Kolb site and from THNK Company and Travis as being closer to 25 MPH, I gotta think I have a problem. Now my instructor weighs in about 190# and I and the previous owner at around 230 #. There is nothing different about the plane from the origional plans that I can find except the longer legs, which would not or should not effect it's flight charistics to any degree. I have not weighed it or checked its balance for location of center of gravity, but again my instructor didn't feel that it was very far off if at all. Somehow I have to gets my hands on three 300# mechanical scales to check this area out. But still where in your humble opinion(s) does the problem lie (or lay)? My last thought might be something regarding adjusting the aleron rods in or out (up or down on the alerons). Could these be the calprets! (

%$

%#$%

 spell checker)!!    



New Kolber with a desire to know (as well as a need).  [Idea]





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3450#3450

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

ul15rhb(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:20 pm Post subject: 40 MPH Stall

Ralph,



I think your ASI is not reading right.



Ralph B.

Original Firestar

19 years flying it (stalls at 25mph, ASI reads 20 due to AOA)

-- "Ralph Hoover" <flht99reh(at)netzero.com> wrote:




 Kolbers. I have a problem. My 1990 Kolb Firestar KXP single seat, with 503 DIDC has a stall speed of 40 MPH plus. Now this is in calm air in late fall. Twice my instructor has flown it, as I am still in the instruct-ee's seat.  And both time, because I have specifically asked "what speed does it stall?", the reply has been the same...40 ish!

 [Evil or Very Mad] 

There are no holes anywhere. It has a complete enclosure, with the exception of backside. It has the alerons stits covering (underside) between the alerons and the wing. According to my instructor it flys like a home sick angle. He said that it doesn't have any side to side misallignment and the stick stays streight for streight flight. I have looked under the motor to see if perhaps the motor is raised or lowered from flat. It's not. 



HELP !!! [Crying or Very sad]  [Crying or Very sad] 



I won't mind landing at 45-50 in calm air if I have too. But when I hear the average from the Kolb site and from THNK Company and Travis as being closer to 25 MPH, I gotta think I have a problem. Now my instructor weighs in about 190# and I and the previous owner at around 230 #. There is nothing different about the plane from the origional plans that I can find except the longer legs, which would not or should not effect it's flight charistics to any degree. I have not weighed it or checked its balance for location of center of gravity, but again my instructor didn't feel that it was very far off if at all. Somehow I have to gets my hands on three 300# mechanical scales to check this area out. But still where in your humble opinion(s) does the problem lie (or lay)? My last thought might be something regarding adjusting the aleron rods in or out (up or down on the alerons). Could these be the calprets! (

%$

%#$%

 spell checker)!!    



New Kolber with a desire to know (as well as a need).  [Idea]





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3450#3450





 

 

 

Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month!

possums(at)mindspring.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:24 pm Post subject: 40 MPH Stall

At 07:36 PM 1/12/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



 Kolbers. I have a problem. My 1990 Kolb Firestar KXP single seat, 

with 503 DIDC has a stall speed of 40 MPH plus. Now this is in calm 

air in late fall. Twice my instructor has flown it, as I am still in 

the instruct-ee's seat.  And both time, because I have specifically 

asked "what speed does it stall?", the reply has been the same...40 ish!

  [Evil or Very Mad]



I won't mind landing at 45-50 in calm air if I have too. But when I 

hear the average from the Kolb site and from THNK Company and Travis 

as being closer to 25 MPH, I gotta think I have a problem. Now my 

instructor weighs in about 190# and I and the previous owner at 

around 230 #. There is nothing different about the plane from the 

origional plans that I can find except the longer legs, which would 

not or should not effect it's flight charistics to any degree.

--------------------------------------
	


I'll bet either he hasn't really stalled it or your air speed 

indicator is wrong.

Mine is heavier than yours could possible be and I've got the stall 

or "mush" down to about 28 mph.

BTW : I would always land a little fast if I were you, we don't get no

extra points for three point landings here.

There are very few things that you can do to

your plane that does anything at all for the performance -

after spending lots of time and money it

sometimes actually degrades the performance of what you

were trying to do anyway.

I've spent lots of $ for nothing several times.

I've got over 670 hours on this one

I was just surprised at what these little things would actually do 

for the amount of

time and money invested. I fly my plane slow - a lot. I fly my plane 

at stall speed at lot.

http://www.mindspring.com/~possums/



http://www.landshorter.com/index.html



A lot more control a just above stall. I used the little lexan

"Landshorter" ones - about 42 + per wing, used the pattern they

sent for the layout. They're even hard to see unless you look close.

It takes two of these to make one of the homemade ones some of the guys use.



URL: <http://sos.photosite.com/Album1/>http://sos.photosite.com/Album1/

James Tripp

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1
Location: Millbrook AL

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: 40 MPH Stall

Ralph,

My FSII also stalls right at 40MPH IAS. I'm 200 lbs and the empty weight of my FS is 445 lbs. I'm almost certain my ASI reads at least 5 MPH high and probably does so because I don't have a static port. I haven't bother to fix it because it just doesn't matter. I just need to know what the stall speed is with the indicator I have.

_________________
James Tripp
FSII
Millbrook AL

flht99reh(at)netzero.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:50 pm Post subject: 40 MPH Stall

Ralph B. I wish you were right. However, according to my instructor who has

been flying for years and knows appearances of air speed, he says NO WAY! I

would know if it were that far off. A few MPH perhaps but not that much. He

typically lands his trainer a (yuk) Challenger at his filed at around 50

with the two of us in it. But just to eliminate that as a problem, once

reassembled, I have both a new Winter ASI and the MGL avionic Flight-2 glass

gauge to tell me. And if they both lie or dispute, then it's the gumball

machine on the outside of the side windscreen.



I wish you were correct. I even have added since the second (last flight) a

static line to the outside of the cockpit, per TNK advise. This may have

been part of the culprit. We shall see. Thank you for your help. A



Are we to continue to use the words do not archive in this new BBS?



Ralph "the other Ralph" Hoover



--

flht99reh(at)netzero.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:57 pm Post subject: 40 MPH Stall

Thanks Richard. I replied to the "Good" Ralph on this site and added a few

comments of which included static line (as full cockpit exists on this

plane), and changing ASI's to a new Winter. So are you to say that now, you

are stalling at 25 range? That sure would make my heart rate a tad milder.

By the way, my predecessor in ownership did install the Pitot tube in the

center of the bull's eye on the nose cone and it is approximately one foot

long. I'll add that I have not yet changed the fuel tank to anything

different than the factory 5 gallon, should weight dispersement be anything

to concern myself about.  



--

flht99reh(at)netzero.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:06 pm Post subject: 40 MPH Stall

Possum, ya make my eyes water! Your web site and that jacket is way too

much. As far as the Vortex goodies, I have read a lot about them on this

site. I may add them at a latter date along with some other goodies.

However, that still doesn't explain why the high stall rate. I appreciate

your input and will keep a copy of your answer. Thanks

--

lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:10 pm Post subject: 40 MPH Stall

 	  Quote: 	
		  Ralph,

My FSII also stalls right at 40MPH IAS. I'm 200 lbs and the empty weight of 

my FS is 445 lbs. I'm almost certain my ASI reads at least 5 MPH high and 

probably does so because I don't have a static port. I haven't bother to 

fix it because it just doesn't matter. I just need to know what the stall 

speed is with the indicator I have.




	


Mine also stalls around 40 as well, actually about 42 or 43 IAS with full 

gas. Mine is 440lbs empty weight and I'm about 185lbs.



So doesn't sound to me like there's a problem. We got 140 sq feet of wing 

area on the FSII after all, so even heavy-ish planes like mine have plenty 

of lift for good climb rates and slow landings.



Remember also that in the flare your stall speed will be even lower due to 

ground effect, so you should still be able to touch down quite a bit slower 

than 40mph.



LS

N646F



 	  Quote: 	
		  --------

James Tripp

FSII

Millbrook AL





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3470#3470

flht99reh(at)netzero.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:13 pm Post subject: 40 MPH Stall

James, you know when someone tells you something and it doesn't make any

sense and then someone else tells you the same thing in a different way, a

light comes on. Well the light came on. The problem still exists but now I

see where someone said "just need to know what the stall speed is with the

indicator I have." And now I understand. It could read eighty and still be

twenty-five (of courses that would mean that I would typically fly at around

115 when cruising). HA, HA!



Thanks. I would rather fix it rather than continue with it in that way. I

think! Thanks for you advise.





--

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: 40 MPH Stall

Hi,

    You wrote to me after my first flight in my Kolb....



  Like I had told you when you were wondering about my stall speed...



 Like I said to you then.... When you go up , Your first flight should be a short one.....get up to 3000 ft and "APPROACH" a stall ......NOT A FULL STALL...... then you'll have the info you need to be safe....



  And it does sound like a "STATIC" problem that your having...



  Got a digital camera ???  lets see PICTURES , CLOSE UPS.....

                                  Gotta Fly...

                                                   Mike in MN   FSII / N381PM

 I bought one of those "Hall" mechanical wind guages as a "Check" because I couldn't believe how SLOW I was flying before stall...

ELT 002.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

59.97 KB

Viewed:

540 Time(s)

possums(at)mindspring.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:19 pm Post subject: 40 MPH Stall

At 09:06 PM 1/12/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Possum, ya make my eyes water! Your web site and that jacket is way too

much. As far as the Vortex goodies, I have read a lot about them on this

site. I may add them at a latter date along with some other goodies.

However, that still doesn't explain why the high stall rate. I appreciate

your input and will keep a copy of your answer. Thanks


	


How many "Ralphs" we got??

Anyway, my wings are 9 inches shorter than my old

1989 KXP. The ribs are the same as yours. the wing tips are

different - so the lift should be about the same.

I'm sure my plane weighs in just under 400 LBS -- Oooch.

I hate to admit that - it's like asking some little thing

if's she's pregnant (she'd better be). Or how old are you honey?

possums(at)mindspring.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:00 pm Post subject: 40 MPH Stall

At 08:49 PM 1/12/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Ralph B. I wish you were right. However, according to my instructor who has

been flying for years and knows appearances of air speed, he says NO WAY! I

would know if it were that far off.


	




Oh -- BTW I've got a $35 "Hall ASI" on my nose cone, Air Speed Indicator

in the Instrument panel and Garmon GPS 295 inside.

So I'm pretty sure my airspeed is right, but the Hall is the most accurate.

Before the VG's my stall speed was only around 36 mph - so don't

expect miracles.

Possum

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 112
Location: Georgia

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:33 pm Post subject: Re: 40 MPH Stall

Just a test....



Oh -- BTW I've got a $35 "Hall ASI" on my nose cone, Air Speed Indicator

in the Instrument panel and Garmon GPS 295 inside.

So I'm pretty sure my airspeed is right, but the Hall is the most accurate.

Before the VG's my stall speed was only around 36 mph - so don't

expect miracles.



Actually got a glass panel - but still have my "Hall" as 

a back up. Ha Ha

Panel 005.jpg

Description:

For the mountains.

Filesize:

52.28 KB

Viewed:

558 Time(s)

wcm(at)tampabay.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:59 am Post subject: 40 mph stall

My problem was just the opposite, when I first got my FS II, I could fly all 

day long at 30 mph IAS with absolutely no tendency to stall. After I bought 

a new ASI the plane stalls at a true 30 mph.



If your installation of a static line doesn't change your reading, try a new 

instrument.



Mallory



Do not archive

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:51 am Post subject: 40 MPH Stall

Around 25 would be pretty awesome, but no, it stalls at 32 power on, 35 

power off.

It is heavy at 488, (lights, transponder, mode C, bulletproof Lexan 

floorboards, etc.)

(not how I would have done it, but it's not my airplane, so...)

which is why it doesn't stall slower, however it handles great,

and a 35 mph power off stall is very easy to live with.

Here is the airplane and the mods we made to it -

http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/kolb.htm



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



flht99reh wrote:



[quote]



Thanks Richard. I replied to the "Good" Ralph on this site and added a few

comments of which included static line (as full cockpit exists on this

plane), and changing ASI's to a new Winter. So are you to say that now, you

are stalling at 25 range? That sure would make my heart rate a tad milder.

By the way, my predecessor in ownership did install the Pitot tube in the

center of the bull's eye on the nose cone and it is approximately one foot

long. I'll add that I have not yet changed the fuel tank to anything

different than the factory 5 gallon, should weight dispersement be anything

to concern myself about.  



--

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:31 am Post subject: 40 MPH Stall

Our original flawed airspeed indicator read ok at 50, but false at high 

and low airspeeds, so when you got up to an indicated 75, you were 

actually going 90. Stuff like that will get a man killed...



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



flht99reh wrote:



[quote]



James, you know when someone tells you something and it doesn't make any

sense and then someone else tells you the same thing in a different way, a

light comes on. Well the light came on. The problem still exists but now I

see where someone said "just need to know what the stall speed is with the

indicator I have." And now I understand. It could read eighty and still be

twenty-five (of courses that would mean that I would typically fly at around

115 when cruising). HA, HA!



Thanks. I would rather fix it rather than continue with it in that way. I

think! Thanks for you advise.





--

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:35 am Post subject: 40 MPH Stall

possums wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



At 08:49 PM 1/12/2006, you wrote:

  



>

>

>Ralph B. I wish you were right. However, according to my instructor who has

>been flying for years and knows appearances of air speed, he says NO WAY! I

>would know if it were that far off.

>    

>

Oh -- BTW I've got a $35 "Hall ASI" on my nose cone, Air Speed Indicator

in the Instrument panel and Garmon GPS 295 inside.

So I'm pretty sure my airspeed is right, but the Hall is the most accurate.

Before the VG's my stall speed was only around 36 mph - so don't

expect miracles.




	


Can you provide a link to the $35 hall asi product?



Thanks,



Charlie

cartejy(at)mtn-state.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:24 am Post subject: 40 MPH Stall

Ralph, where are you located in Ohio, I am at East Liverpool,I own a 91 KXP

and it lands slower than you mention.I would not get to excited about it,may

be no problem..or may be air speed indicator ,you will have lots of fun with

the KXP and they fly great. Jay Carter KXP /503. do not archive



---

Possum

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 112
Location: Georgia

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:23 am Post subject: Re: 40 MPH Stall

Can you provide a link to the $35 hall asi product? 



Thanks, 



Charlie



--------------------------------



http://www.hallwindmeter.com/wind.php

HallASI.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

112.81 KB

Viewed:

472 Time(s)

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum