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EFIS Comparisons
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gmvouga(at)hotmail.com
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:03 pm    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

Hi all,

I've been muddling through all the different EFIS's trying to decide which
one to put in my RV-7A. I'm leaning toward the Blue Mountain E-1, but
frankly, the company scares the hell out of me. I've even heard of several
new systems that have come to market (or are about to) over the last year.
I'd like to put together a comparison of features to help me with my
decision. Has anyone already done this? If you already have a spreadsheet
that you wouldn't mind sharing I would appreciate it.

Thanks,
Greg


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mthomson(at)showmeproduct
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:59 pm    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

What is it that "scares the hell out of you" about Blue Mountain. Perhaps
you need a company comparison and not so much a product feature comparison?

--


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stein(at)steinair.com
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:43 pm    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

Hi Greg,

This is a tough one to put in black and white, just because there are a lot
of things about all the EFIS's that while maybe listed as a "function" act
completely different between mfgrs. The better approach is to decide what
your flight/mission requirments are, then talk to some people that have
experience with different units and can give you an objective overview.
It's really hard to get objective reviews on this stuff, because you'll
quickly find that the average person will normally defend their
purchase/selection and normally they are spot on. That being said, your
requirments/desires for functionality will certainly differ from mine, so my
rationale/justification of a particular product for my plane naturally won't
dovetail with yours. I find that depending on people's requirements, it's
usually pretty easy to figure out which EFIS works best for them after
finding out what they want to do with it, what they can afford, etc..

I've had a fair bit of experience with all the normal players in the market
and can say that so far I've had good experiences with all the companies.
In the past week I've ordered a number of EFIS's and the orders are nearly
equal(BMA, GRT, Dynon & Chelton) so you can see that the current balance
doesn't really show any particular company running away with sales or
functionality. Add to that some exciting new stuff coming out at Sun n Fun
from other manufacturers and the decisions will become somewhat more
confusing!

Anyway, like I said..figure out what you want (and what you can afford) and
go from there.

Just my 2 cents as usual.

Cheers,
Stein.

do not archive

--


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craig(at)craigandjean.com
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:13 am    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

One that usually gets missed is MGL Avionics. Low end I guess but I like
(and own) one of their Stratomaster line. And the owner of the company
answers their e-mails. Sonex recommends them for their planes.

www.mglavionics.co.za ("za" is South Africa)

www.sportflyingshop.com/ is the US distributor I bought mine through.

-- Craig

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craig(at)craigandjean.com
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:22 am    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

Well, there was a minor tiff between Bob and Greg Richter of Blue Mountain
Avionics:

http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/richter/richter.html

-- Craig

--


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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:53 am    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

At 03:19 AM 1/13/2006 -0700, you wrote:

Quote:

<craig(at)craigandjean.com>

Well, there was a minor tiff between Bob and Greg Richter of Blue Mountain
Avionics:

http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/richter/richter.html

-- Craig

Keep in mind folks that the "tiff" had nothing to do with Blue Mountain
EFIS systems. Greg chose to offer advice to builders concerning techniques
and materials selections for assembling an electrical system that he
could not support with an explanation of simple-ideas. He also chose
to take a whack at the 'Connection. However, in spite of an overt offer
to "talk shop" was ultimately unable or unwilling to discuss specifics
as to where the 'Connection fell short. He never answered a single question.

One might infer things about Greg's business model and/or manufacturing
techniques based on our short exchange but doing so is certain to
be incomplete and have some errors of perception. Blue Mountain has
been around for some years. Your very best information on their
hardware and business performance is from customers who are installing
and/or flying their products - not from third-party discussions here
on the List or anywhere else (except where they cite first-hand knowledge
of fact).

Bob . . .


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kevmaxwell(at)mac.com
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:00 am    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

On Jan 12, 2006, at 10:02 PM, Greg Vouga wrote:

Quote:

<gmvouga(at)hotmail.com>

Hi all,

I've been muddling through all the different EFIS's trying to
decide which
one to put in my RV-7A. I'm leaning toward the Blue Mountain E-1, but
frankly, the company scares the hell out of me.


Never had anything but positive experiences. They've bent over
backwards when necessary, which has been rare. They maintain an
unmoderated forum, which is a valuable resource, but does tend to
lend a sense of exaggeration to the inevitable rare problems.

Kevin #83


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gmvouga(at)hotmail.com
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:12 am    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

The part that scares me is the company. I've heard too many rumors about
bad service, slow (or no) delivery, and even a few system malfunctions.
While I've not verified all of this info, there's enough negative stuff out
there to at least make me nervous. So much so, that I've started looking
into other systems more closesly.

I've been a fan of BMA for about 2 years. I'm very impressed with their
features and the overall appearance of their system. However, I've almost
had tunnel vision when it comes to other systems. Which is what is
prompting me to put together a comparison of all systems. I would like to
start out with features alone. Of course this will only be one piece of the
decision puzzle. I think it will be helpfull for me to go back to basics
and start there.
[quote]From: "Malcolm Thomson" <mthomson(at)showmeproductions.com>
Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
To: <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: RE: EFIS Comparisons
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 21:55:18 -0700


<mthomson(at)showmeproductions.com>

What is it that "scares the hell out of you" about Blue Mountain. Perhaps
you need a company comparison and not so much a product feature comparison?

--


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brinker(at)cox-internet.c
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:18 am    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

Greetings Stein, can you give an idea of the new stuff coming out
at Sun n fun ? Website's ?

Thanks Randy
---


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gmvouga(at)hotmail.com
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:25 am    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

Thanks for the advice. I've also found a large discrepancy in the reports
that people give of the systems. It's hard to get an accurate view of the
capabilities of a system that is not laced with opinions.

[quote]From: "Stein Bruch" <stein(at)steinair.com>
Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
To: <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: RE: EFIS Comparisons
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 23:42:18 -0600



Hi Greg,

This is a tough one to put in black and white, just because there are a lot
of things about all the EFIS's that while maybe listed as a "function" act
completely different between mfgrs. The better approach is to decide what
your flight/mission requirments are, then talk to some people that have
experience with different units and can give you an objective overview.
It's really hard to get objective reviews on this stuff, because you'll
quickly find that the average person will normally defend their
purchase/selection and normally they are spot on. That being said, your
requirments/desires for functionality will certainly differ from mine, so
my
rationale/justification of a particular product for my plane naturally
won't
dovetail with yours. I find that depending on people's requirements, it's
usually pretty easy to figure out which EFIS works best for them after
finding out what they want to do with it, what they can afford, etc..

I've had a fair bit of experience with all the normal players in the market
and can say that so far I've had good experiences with all the companies.
In the past week I've ordered a number of EFIS's and the orders are nearly
equal(BMA, GRT, Dynon & Chelton) so you can see that the current balance
doesn't really show any particular company running away with sales or
functionality. Add to that some exciting new stuff coming out at Sun n Fun
from other manufacturers and the decisions will become somewhat more
confusing!

Anyway, like I said..figure out what you want (and what you can afford) and
go from there.

Just my 2 cents as usual.

Cheers,
Stein.

do not archive

--


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gmvouga(at)hotmail.com
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:27 am    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

I've never heard of these guys. I'll take a look.

Thanks
[quote]From: "Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com>
Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
To: <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: RE: EFIS Comparisons
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 03:06:55 -0700


<craig(at)craigandjean.com>

One that usually gets missed is MGL Avionics. Low end I guess but I like
(and own) one of their Stratomaster line. And the owner of the company
answers their e-mails. Sonex recommends them for their planes.

www.mglavionics.co.za ("za" is South Africa)

www.sportflyingshop.com/ is the US distributor I bought mine through.

-- Craig

--


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harley(at)AgelessWings.co
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:32 am    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

Can't let it go without mentioning these new guys based right down the
field from my hangar:

http://xerionavionix.com/

Harley Dixon
Long EZ N28EZ
Canandaigua, NY

Brinker wrote:

[quote]

Greetings Stein, can you give an idea of the new stuff coming out
at Sun n fun ? Website's ?

Thanks Randy
---


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Bill Denton



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 97
Location: Chicago, IL USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:51 am    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

You might also keep an eye on: http://www.aveousa.com/

They are technology partners with MGL Avionics, and while some of their
products are duplicates of the MGL units, Aveo also offers some products
that are exclusive to their line.

They will be introducing several new, and what they promise will be
exciting, products some time in January, so you might check their site
periodically...

--


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brian



Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:28 am    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

Craig Payne wrote:
Quote:


Well, there was a minor tiff between Bob and Greg Richter of Blue Mountain
Avionics:

http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/richter/richter.html

It is interesting. I spent the better part of a day with Greg trying to
get the feel for the Blue Mountain EFIS-1 as I am considering it for my
CJ6A project. (Airframe and pneumatics done. Engine, prop, electrical
system, glass, and paint to go.)

Greg's biggest lament is how his tech support gets eaten up by
installation and wiring problems. I can understand why he would want to
do something about that as it costs him money when someone's EFIS-1
doesn't work for whatever reason.

Greg's approach to the problem is simplicity. The less there is, the
less can go wrong or be made to go wrong. I agree that the KISS
principle is generally a good thing.

One thing I did find interesting is that his box drops off-line at about
9V-10V. It won't ride through cranking the engine on a 14V electrical
system. He was working on a backup battery approach to provide power to
EFIS-1 so it would stay alive while the engine was cranked. He prefers
aircraft have a 28V electrical system as he then has just that much more
margin before hitting that 9v-10v point. This didn't matter to me in the
CJ6A because:

1. it is a 28V system;

2. there is no electrical starter so there will never be that level of
drain from the battery.

I consider this to be non-problem for me and a potential problem for
everyone who is planning to install an EFIS-1 in their OBAM aircraft
with a 14V electrical system and an electric starter. Do the other PFD
manufacturers have this problem? I don't know but it is something to
consider in your installation. (And for all I know Greg has solved the
problem but I haven't looked for over a year.)

What I don't get is why there should be any kind of rancor between Greg
and Bob. Bob emphasized wiring aircraft in a workman-like manner using
the proper materials to ensure that the system is mechanically and
electrically sound with no single point of failure. If builders really
do what Bob suggests, their electrical systems should be exceedingly
reliable and eliminate the kinds of problems that Greg has been
experiencing.

And Greg can't blame Bob when someone chooses to do a poor job. That
doesn't make Bob's information any less correct.

As for the argument about understanding electrical systems, I don't
think it is all that hard. (But then, I started building radios at age 7
so I probably don't count.) I do know that building an airplane requires
one to become conversant with any number of technologies upon which
one's life will depend after the wheels have left Terra firma. The
electrical system is just one such. I have always applauded the
AeroElectric Connection because it is so thorough in presenting the
basics. (Even if
Bob still prefers silicon to Schottky isolation diodes for the EB.)
Learning electricity to the point where you can understand your
electrical system is no harder than having to learn the FARs (easier in
fact because electricity makes sense under all conditions) or learn to
fly on instruments and certainly no worse that understanding your fuel
system, hydraulic system, control surface balance and rigging, fabric
application, etc.

Albert Einstein once said it very succinctly:

"Things should be made as simple as possible,
and no simpler."

Now, as for my choice for a PFD/MFD EFIS I am still leaning toward the
Blue Mountain EFIS-1. I have a tandem cockpit aircraft and need to
provide instrumentation to both cockpits. I can do it with the EFIS-1
just by adding a second display. It has what I need to be able to fly an
ILS. (I consider basic-IFR capability to be a must in any aircraft as it
enhances my ability to complete a flight safely. YMMV) It provides full
engine monitoring. My backup will be a standard 3-pack of steam gauges,
i.e. altimeter, AI, and airspeed, or perhaps a Dynon D-10. Of course
there will be a whiskey compass. My perception is that EFIS-1 will
reduce my wiring requirements.

But the Jury is still out. There are lots of companies coming along with
very nice PFDs and engine monitoring. I am considering GRT also but that
would entail two of everything to equip both cockpits and their price
advantage is pretty well lost at that point. Dynon is amazingly
inexpensive for what you get and is probably how I would go when
equipping an aircraft where cost is the real object and there are real
estate issues. (I wish the Dynon had been around when I was doing the
panel in my RV-4.)

Those are my thoughts. They are worth every penny you paid for them. Wink

--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:30 am    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

Brian-

with the GRT will you really need two of everything to have EFIS in the back seat? I can't see why dual screens and single AHRS wouldn't work. At about $9k, there would still be the price advantage over BMA.

I'm an outsider looking in on this technology (currently fitting a new panel blank for dual GRT with Dynon backup) so I may well be overlooking something...

-Bill B

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:07 am    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

No, No, No. You want dual AHRS, with an electronic comparator hopefully. No
if it's a VFR ONLY airplane, anything goes.

Bruce
www.glasair.org


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:37 pm    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

No, No, No. You want need a single AHRS to drive the dual EFIS
display. Then you want an independent, unrelated 'save your undies'
system as a backup.

As an example....if you have two Crossbow AHRS, what do you have?

For Brian's benefit, I can report a single AHRS drives both GRT EFIS
units with 100% live-time for 300 hours.

Chuck Jensen

<Bruce(at)glasair.org>

No, No, No. You want dual AHRS, with an electronic comparator hopefully.
No
if it's a VFR ONLY airplane, anything goes.

Bruce
www.glasair.org


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:55 pm    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

Greg has a tech note on his web site about the battery back-up:

http://www.bluemountainavionics.com/pdf/battery_backup.pdf

-- Craig

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brian



Joined: 02 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:12 pm    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

sportav8r(at)aol.com wrote:
Quote:


Brian-

with the GRT will you really need two of everything to have EFIS in the back seat? I can't see why dual screens and single AHRS wouldn't work. At about $9k, there would still be the price advantage over BMA.

You forgot to add in the engine monitor function. I am not sure they
support two displays for that. If I have to put in two engine monitors I
have to add another $6000 for that. Now I am up to $15,000.

In addition, I have a 9-cyl radial engine. That means 9xCHT and 9xEGT.
The GRT engine monitor does not appear to meet my needs. Greg has
assured me that the BMA EFIS-1 can handle a 9-cyl engine.

Also, the BMA EFIS-1 performs as an HSI to display the nav data from my
NavCom for VOR and ILS navigation thus eliminating the need for a
VOR/ILS head. That is more hardware I don't have to buy and it gets
repeated to the back seat. Useful if the GIB wants to fly the approach
or if I am instructing and want to monitor the VOR/ILS needles.

Basically an EFIS-1 with an Apollo/Garmin SL-30 NavCom and a transponder
is a complete panel for the airplane. All I have to do is add enough to
provide backup to make myself comfortable. If I have a Dynon or a
3-pack, I can use the built-in CDI display on the SL-30 to fly a LOC or
VOR approach even if the EFIS-1 packs it in. I have reduced capability
but should still be safe.

Quote:
I'm an outsider looking in on this technology (currently fitting a new panel blank for dual GRT with Dynon backup) so I may well be overlooking something...

You sound like you are on the right track. I am debating between a Dynon
D-10 and a 3-pack for my backup. Decisions, decisions ...

Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:13 pm    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

QUOTE: As an example....if you have two Crossbow AHRS, what do you have?
END QUOTE:

Not sure what that is suppose to mean.... It means the same thing whether
you have two Crossbow, or GRT, or BMI, or XYZ company AHRS.

Least this degrade into a who's AHRS is better than who's else's, just
suffice it to say that there are primary instruments and backup or secondary
ones. If you want true redundancy, you need two separate system, on
separate power supplies sharing no components in common.

Alan

Ps. I'm getting a little tired about the competitive finger pointing that
goes on around EFIS systems. They each have their pluses and minuses.
Determine your mission profile and wallet book allowance and buy what you
want. For me that was one that was based upon a certified software suite -
yes, I bought a Chelton for my Lancair Legacy. Yes they found an issue with
the AHRS, but that's no different than any of the other vendors. Course
there is one exception - my G1000 182... It's been a rock for over 170 hours
so far.

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