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Maximum Climb Angle

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kearney

Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 563

Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:24 am Post subject: Maximum Climb Angle

Hi  

One of the things I need to do for my final inspection is ensure fuel flow with minimum fuel at the maximum climb angle.  

Can anyone tell me what the maximum pitch angle is in a climb?  

I will assume that the minimum fuel is whatever it takes to allow fuel to flow at that angle. Anyone have an idea of what that might be?  

  

Cheers  

Les  

#40643 - CGCWZ  

So close, oh so close…..     [quote][b]

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2871

Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:19 am Post subject: Maximum Climb Angle

I'd say it FEELS like 70 degrees or so. 

But, it's probably more like 30-35 as a max, as a

norm it's probably much less yet.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

do not archive

On 11/25/2012 10:23 AM, Les Kearney wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi



 One of the things I need to do for my final inspection is ensure fuel

 flow with minimum fuel at the maximum climb angle.



 Can anyone tell me what the maximumpitch angle is in a climb?



 I will assume that theminimumfuel is whatever it takes to allow fuel to

 flow at that angle.Anyone have an idea of what that might be?



 Cheers



 Les



 #40643 - CGCWZ



 Soclose, oh so close…..



 *

partner14

Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Posts: 540
Location: Granbury Texas

Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:40 am Post subject: Maximum Climb Angle

Actually if you think about it, it's backward... with minimum fuel you should want to know what is the maximum decent angle... cause with minimum fuel, you should be coming down, not going up.  Just kidding here.

Probably a bigger consideration would be which tank are you on when low on fuel in the pattern?   Better be on the opposite tank as the pattern direction.... and that may not be the fullest tank.

Don McDonald

        From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 11:18 AM

 Subject: Re: Maximum Climb Angle

 --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)>

I'd say it FEELS like 70 degrees or so. 

But, it's probably more like 30-35 as a max, as a

norm it's probably much less yet.

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

do not archive

On 11/25/2012 10:23 AM, Les Kearney wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi

 One of the things I need to do for my final inspection is ensure fuel

 flow with minimum fuel at the maximum climb angle.

 Can anyone tell me what the maximumpitch angle is in a climb?

 I will assume that theminimumfuel is whatever it takes to allow fuel to

 flow at that angle.Anyone have an idea of what that might be?

 Cheers

 Les

 #40643 - CGCWZ

 Soclose, oh so closeâ€¦..

 p;    * The Builder's Bookstore wwwp;                     -Mor?RV10-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Lisreat content also available via the Web =============

 [quote][b]

_________________
Don A. McDonald
40636

kearney

Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 563

Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:54 am Post subject: Maximum Climb Angle

Don

Quite true and good info to have. On the other hand this is a very specific info requirement that I have to satisfy. 

Cheers

Les



Sent from my iPhone



On 2012-11-25, at 11:40 AM, Don McDonald <building_partner(at)yahoo.com (building_partner(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:



[quote]Actually if you think about it, it's backward... with minimum fuel you should want to know what is the maximum decent angle... cause with minimum fuel, you should be coming down, not going up.  Just kidding here.

Probably a bigger consideration would be which tank are you on when low on fuel in the pattern?   Better be on the opposite tank as the pattern direction.... and that may not be the fullest tank.

Don McDonald

        From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com (Tim(at)MyRV10.com)>

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 11:18 AM

 Subject: Re: Maximum Climb Angle

  

 

 --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)>



I'd say it FEELS like 70 degrees or so. 

But, it's probably more like 30-35 as a max, as a

norm it's probably much less yet.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

do not archive

On 11/25/2012 10:23 AM, Les Kearney wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi



 One of the things I need to do for my final inspection is ensure fuel

 flow with minimum fuel at the maximum climb angle.



 Can anyone tell me what the maximumpitch angle is in a climb?



 I will assume that theminimumfuel is whatever it takes to allow fuel to

 flow at that angle.Anyone have an idea of what that might be?



 Cheers



 Les



 #40643 - CGCWZ



 Soclose, oh so closeâ€¦..



 p;    * The Builder's Bookstore wwwp;                     -Mor?RV10-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Lisreat content also available via the Web =============


	






 

[url=http://wwmebuiltHELP <a target=] [/url]

[url=http://wwmebuiltHELP <a target=]  [/url]

[url=http://wwmebuiltHELP <a target=] [/url] 	  Quote: 	
		  



===================================

" face="courier new,courier">www.aeroelectric.com

 	  Quote: 	
		  www.buildersbooks.com

uilthelp.com
	


matronics.com/contribution

===================================

://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

===================================

cs.com

===================================



	


[b]

rv10flyer

Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 364

Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:00 pm Post subject: Re: Maximum Climb Angle

Have a couple of people hold your tail down onto your tie down. That will get you close. I was getting 42 gph with a 15' hose connected to fuel line from servo inlet. 



Also if you like to slip instead of crab during xw landings, you will want to be on the downwind tank. It may or may not be the tank opposite the pattern direction.

_________________
Wayne G.

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:28 pm Post subject: Maximum Climb Angle

You could calculate based on VS & airspeed. At sea level low on fuel, max could be 2,000fpm at 110kias. You could calculate the angle based on that and do your measurement. In coordinated flight, it doesn't matter which tank versus which way you turn, but when I'm low I hold some rudder from the side that I am burning, but that doesn't affect your test. The benefit for you is that the pickup is at the back of the tank, so you will burn much lower before sucking air than in level flight. Note, though, that you want to set minimum fuel in a level situation to get an accurate reading of the fuel level. With the tail on the ground you may get a couple of gallons after your gauge reads empty. 



Jesse SaintI-TEC, Inc.

jesse(at)itecusa.org (jesse(at)itecusa.org)

www.itecusa.org

www.mavericklsa.com

C: 352-427-0285

O: 352-465-4545

F: 815-377-3694

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 25, 2012, at 11:23 AM, "Les Kearney" <kearney(at)shaw.ca (kearney(at)shaw.ca)> wrote:

[quote]     Maximum Climb Angle     

Hi  

One of the things I need to do for my final inspection is ensure fuel flow with minimum fuel at the maximum climb angle.  

Can anyone tell me what the maximum pitch angle is in a climb?  

I will assume that the minimum fuel is whatever it takes to allow fuel to flow at that angle. Anyone have an idea of what that might be?  

  

Cheers  

Les  

#40643 - CGCWZ  

So close, oh so closeâ€¦..      	  Quote: 	
		  



===================================

ctric.com

 	  Quote: 	
		  www.buildersbooks.com

uilthelp.com
	


matronics.com/contribution

===================================

://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

===================================

cs.com

===================================



	


[b]

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:20 pm Post subject: Re: Maximum Climb Angle

"Probably a bigger consideration would be which tank are you on when low on fuel in the pattern? Better be on the opposite tank as the pattern direction.... and that may not be the fullest tank. "



This is an OWT. As long as you fly coordinated turns, it makes no difference. Uncoordinated - as in a cross wind landing - it might be best to have fuel from the higher tank.

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

johngoodman

Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Location: GA

Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:19 pm Post subject: Re: Maximum Climb Angle

Les,

Since the RV-10 is non-acrobatic, there is no need to know that number. Also, the only reason that would come into play is doing a hot-shot snap up into a break when you're almost out of gas - an opportunity to get a Darwin Award. (g)



You mentioned:  "On the other hand this is a very specific info requirement that I have to satisfy."



If that info requirement is a limitation you want to put in your POH, I'd advise against it.

John

[quote="kearney"]Hi  

One of the things I need to do for my final inspection is ensure fuel flow with minimum fuel at the maximum climb angle.  

Can anyone tell me what the maximum pitch angle is in a climb?  

I will assume that the minimum fuel is whatever it takes to allow fuel to flow at that angle. Anyone have an idea of what that might be?  

  Cheers  

Les  

#40643 - CGCWZ  

So close, oh so closeâ€¦..      	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

_________________
#40572 Phase One complete in 2011

Gordon Anderson

Joined: 16 Apr 2012
Posts: 41
Location: Switzerland

Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:08 am Post subject: Maximum Climb Angle

Les,



The requirement is from FAR 23.955 paragraph (a).  You are looking for the highest angle of the fuselage to horizontal, which gives the highest likelihood of uncovering the pickup tube and/or running into vapor lock issues.  This is not the same as the maximum flight path angle the plane can climb at, which would be just over 10° based on Jesse's numbers.

IIRC airfoils for GA aircraft typically stall somewhere around 12-17° incidence, but this depends a lot on aspect ratio and flap configuration.  I can see two ways of getting the real number.  First is to ask Vans.  Second is to persuade one of our bold test pilots out there to measure the inclination angle of the tunnel cover at onset of stall in a climb.  (Conveniently, there is an iPhone app for measuring angle;-) ).  Good luck with either method!

Tying the tail to the floor with the mains on the ground will give you just over 15°.  You could always ask if your inspector would accept that.

Cheers,

Gordon





On Nov 25, 2012, at 5:23 PM, Les Kearney wrote:

[quote]     Maximum Climb Angle   

Hi

One of the things I need to do for my final inspection is ensure fuel flow with minimum fuel at the maximum climb angle.

Can anyone tell me what the maximum pitch angle is in a climb?

I will assume that the minimum fuel is whatever it takes to allow fuel to flow at that angle. Anyone have an idea of what that might be?



Cheers

Les

#40643 - CGCWZ

So close, oh so close…..      	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com

href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com

href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com



	


[b]

glastar(at)gmx.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:40 am Post subject: Maximum Climb Angle

Gordon and Les,



here in Switzerland that test is required to be done on 16 degrees angle 

of attack, but be aware there might be a 2nd critical angle on a decent 

where your tank might unport on a steep decent. Not so much a danger 

with the narrower tank of our 10 more of a wider tank like in my 

Glastar, or like on of our members found out on his Wheeler Express over 

Insbruck.



Cheers Werner



On 26.11.2012 09:07, Gordon Anderson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Les,



 The requirement is from FAR 23.955 paragraph (a).  You are looking for

 the highest angle of the fuselage to horizontal, which gives the highest

 likelihood of uncovering the pickup tube and/or running into vapor lock

 issues.  This is not the same as the maximum flight path angle the plane

 can climb at, which would be just over 10° based on Jesse's numbers.



 IIRC airfoils for GA aircraft typically stall somewhere around 12-17°

 incidence, but this depends a lot on aspect ratio and flap

 configuration.  I can see two ways of getting the real number.  First is

 to ask Vans.  Second is to persuade one of our bold test pilots out

 there to measure the inclination angle of the tunnel cover at onset of

 stall in a climb.  (Conveniently, there is an iPhone app for measuring

 angle;-) ).  Good luck with either method!



 Tying the tail to the floor with the mains on the ground will give you

 just over 15°.  You could always ask if your inspector would accept that.



 Cheers,



 Gordon

 On Nov 25, 2012, at 5:23 PM, Les Kearney wrote:



> Maximum Climb Angle

>

> Hi

>

> One of the things I need to do for my final inspection is ensure fuel

> flow with minimum fuel at the maximum climb angle.

>

> Can anyone tell me what the maximumpitch angle is in a climb?

>

> I will assume that theminimumfuel is whatever it takes to allow fuel

> to flow at that angle.Anyone have an idea of what that might be?

> Cheers

>

> Les

>

> #40643 - CGCWZ

>

> Soclose, oh so close…..

>

> *

>

> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com

> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com

> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com

> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

> href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

>

> *



 *

 *

rv10flyer

Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 364

Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:57 am Post subject: Re: Maximum Climb Angle

Minimum fuel for testing on the ground...I believe I may have had 8 oz. remaining when pump cavitated. Now flying I have had one tank with 5 and one with 7 remaining after 750 nm/4.5 hr flight. 5 gal per side is my personal minimum. I did not have to do the test for the FAA Insp, but more for my piece of mind.

_________________
Wayne G.

TimRVator(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:34 pm Post subject: Maximum Climb Angle

Not the answer, but a data point: I see up to about 15 degrees pitch up 

(EFIS reference w.r.t. cruise pitch) at best rate of climb (takeoff). 

Best angle would be steeper.



-- 

Tim Lewis -- HEF (Manassas, VA)

RV-6A N47TD -- 1104 hrs - sold

RV-10 N31TD -- 350 hrs



Les Kearney said the following on 11/25/2012 11:23 AM:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Maximum Climb Angle



 Hi



 One of the things I need to do for my final inspection is ensure fuel 

 flow with minimum fuel at the maximum climb angle.



 Can anyone tell me what the maximumpitch angle is in a climb?



 I will assume that theminimumfuel is whatever it takes to allow fuel 

 to flow at that angle.Anyone have an idea of what that might be?



 Cheers



 Les



 #40643 - CGCWZ



 Soclose, oh so close…..



 *

 *

nukeflyboy

Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 162
Location: Granbury, TX

Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:23 pm Post subject: Re: Maximum Climb Angle

Why would anyone need this data point?  Who in their right mind would do a maximum climb with ounces of fuel?  A standard test is to ensure that the pump can deliver at a high angle of attack, not with "minimum fuel".  These pumps don't cavitate from lack of head, they stop pumping when the suction line is uncovered.  So all you need to do is check that the pump works (ie, delivers 24 gph or so) at a high angle.  This is physically limited by how far you can tie the tail down (unless you dig a hole - not recommended).  So just tie the tail down as far as it will go and don't worry what the angle may be.  This test is worth doing.



A separate test for minimum fuel (or measuring unusable fuel - same thing) is done in a level attitude.  Also worth doing.

_________________
Dave Moore
RV-6 built and sold
RV-10 built and flying

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