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mds4878
Joined: 09 Feb 2009
Posts: 48
Location: Mound, MN.
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tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net
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 Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:49 pm Post subject: IO-540 Cylinders |
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You might as well ask everyone what religion they are!
The engine I bought had corroded cylinders on an a low hour Lycoming reman. We found it during pre purchase inspection.
I didn't want to worry about that happening again so I sprung for new ECI nickel power assemblies. I have no complaints with it, oil consumption is not what I had hoped for at around 8hr/qt. but that's typical of these with some few claiming much better.
When comparing prices be aware Lycoming kits come with the pin, ECI does not so there is $50 less savings. Not sure what Supierior does, they were not around when I shopped.
J&J had the best prices at the time, no complaints on them from me!
Really the people to ask would be Bart at Aerosport or Barrett engines.
Also Lycon will sell you new Lycoming CNC ported-by-them jugs for I think another $400 ea.
Good luck on your decision!
Tim
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 6, 2013, at 6:52 PM, "mds4878" <mike.nova1973(at)gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
I have a IO-540-C4B5 and I'm getting ready to buy new cylinders.
What is the best cylinder to buy.
Lycoming. 05K21102
ECI Nickel TISN10.1CA
ECI Steel TIST10.1CA
Millennium SL36006N-A20P
I think all of these are correct but what does everyone think is the best ones to buy? Please give your opinion.
[Question] [Question]
--------
RV-10 #40447
Fuselage almost done.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406110#406110
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dalamphere(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:46 am Post subject: IO-540 Cylinders |
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We've had good luck with Millennium cylinders here at CJR.
Dave
On Aug 6, 2013, at 9:52 PM, mds4878 wrote:
| Quote: |
>
I have a IO-540-C4B5 and I'm getting ready to buy new cylinders.
What is the best cylinder to buy.
Lycoming. 05K21102
ECI Nickel TISN10.1CA
ECI Steel TIST10.1CA
Millennium SL36006N-A20P
I think all of these are correct but what does everyone think is the
best ones to buy? Please give your opinion.
[Question] [Question]
--------
RV-10 #40447
Fuselage almost done.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406110#406110
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Jim Combs
Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 140
Location: Lexington, Ky
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| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:09 am Post subject: IO-540 Cylinders |
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We have five of the Titan ECI Steel on our C4B5 with no issues! (540 hours).
One of the Chrome cylinders is still doing well with no issues, so we have not changed it.
Jim Combs
N312F
Do Not Archive
On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 9:52 PM, mds4878 <mike.nova1973(at)gmail.com (mike.nova1973(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> LycomingEngines-List message posted by: "mds4878" <mike.nova1973(at)gmail.com (mike.nova1973(at)gmail.com)>
I have a IO-540-C4B5 and I'm getting ready to buy new cylinders.
What is the best cylinder to buy.
Lycoming. 05K21102
ECI Nickel TISN10.1CA
ECI Steel TIST10.1CA
Millennium SL36006N-A20P
I think all of these are correct but what does everyone think is the best ones to buy? Please give your opinion.
[Question] [Question]
--------
RV-10 #40447
Fuselage almost done.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406110#406110
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RV-10 -> N312F - Flying as of 12/2008 |
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:54 am Post subject: IO-540 Cylinders |
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Mike:
Great question but unfortunately the responses will be opinions and there is a saying about 'opinions': Opinions are like assholes, everybody's hs one and they all stink!
But, since you asked for an opinion here you go AND I will supply as much fact as I know.
Lycoming - NO WAY!
Lycoming has been in business for many, many years and reviewing their history they have made very little efforts in the way of progress. Consider the amount of AD's against Lycoming products and their recent (maybe 4 years old at this time) court case of Bad Steel for the crank shaft. Yes, the case was won in their favor but it was a case of who had deeper pockets and they did. They have great lawyers. And it is the lawyers that run Lycoming, NOT the engineers. The only time they make changes is when forced to by law suits.
Think of all the advancements throughout the engine industry and look where they are now. Only as far as the lawyers will let them.
OK - Enough - I'm a bit confident in that you understand where I am coming from, let's move on.
ECI - YES, but a difficult decision.
ECI has gone through some rough times with a Very Expensive AD on their cylinders. They have made changes. They have Highly Supported their customers with the swapping of old cylinders for New - new Design cylinders. AND they have the Eye of the Tiger. Many a company would have rolled over and closed their doors and filed for Chapter 11. They did not! I would suggest you call ECI and talk to a few people there and see if you get the Warm Fuzzy feeling that inspires confidence.
Now to talk Nickel Vs Steel cylinders.
Here I can supply you with lots of REAL information. I worked for many years in the metal coating industry as a QA Engineer/Manager and as a Technical Sales Engineer. Here are some simple facts:
1 - Steel is harder than Nickel.
2 - The nickel can be applied through two processes -
a> Electroplating which requires electrodes to be place inside the cylinders and is known to NOT give a uniform coating, and
b> Electroless plating which is a much more uniform coating. And is less time consuming and therefore less expensive. My money would be that the cylinders are Electroless Plates.
The next question is which will last longer, Steel or Nickel?
The answer is STEEL! Steel will have a hardness in the range of 65 to 85 Rockwell C.
Nickel is NOWHERE near that. Matter of FACT! Nickel hardness is NOT rated in Rockwell it is rated in Vickers with some people using Brindle and THEN mathematically or via a chart converted over to Rockwell. the Vickers range is 485 to 750 Vhn. Problem here is the NUMBERS LIE! Look up the conversion between Vickers to Rockwell and you will find three charts... Pick one! They all lie.
Other Things to Consider:
1 - Nickel would be applied in a thin coating of about 0.003" Thick for this type of cylinder application. MANY times not even that thick... Maybe 0.0007 to 0.001"
2 - BONDING of the Nickel to the steel barrel is a MAJOR concern - Read that as a PROBLEM. Nickel does NOT bond well to hardened base materials. ACIDS should be used to help the bonding BUT - Acids cause Hydrogen Embrittlement.
I'm not going into that - you can look it up.
3 - To harden nickel you heat it at 500 to 700 F preferably in a electric oven. <-- CO$Tly... Do you think many companies will do that? What do you think REHEATING (under operation) it will do at say 1500 F? Do you think it will last long?
4 - WARE - Now you are going to take a hardened steel, the Rings (Rockwell 70 to 90 Rc) and rub them against Nickel... Do you really think the nickel will last long?
5 - The sales point of nickel is corrosion protection. Sure! Buy the engine, never run the engine and the barrels will last long... All the other ferrous parts will rust through.
6 - CHROME - You did not mention it, but I will: Very difficult to get a uniform coating because it is; or should be, a trivalent Electroplating process. VERY HARD - Very Difficult to get the rings to seat. Usually results in high oil consumption. Because of these issues, that is why the advertising department - NOT KNOWLEDGEABLE ENGINEERS have switched to nickel. Still a poor choice.
BOTTOM LINE on Steel Vs Nickel/Chrome... GO WITH STEEL.
NOW, just to muddy the waters (confuse things) just a little more: There are two different ways of achieving hardness in steel barrels:
a> Flame Hardening a.k.a. Heat Treating and
b> Nitriding - Chemically hardening.
Both are GOOD - The difference is CO$T. Flame hardening is the more expensive. The next question you should be thinking about is: How deep is the barrel treated? In both methods it is about 0.040" Deep. That means IF you keep your cylinders for three overhauls you will still have enough material to work with. An overhaul increases the size of the cylinder by 0.010" EACH TIME. That means a 0.005" cut each time plus the ware of say 0.005". More than enough hardened thickness.
Millennium Cylinders - All the same above applies. They also had their share of AD's. There was one on the pistons for porosity, I believe that affected all manufactures since they were all buying from the Brazilian manufacturer.
My Lycoming O-320 had Millennium Superior Cylinders - One thing I really liked about them was the fins were NOT painted - They were Hard Coat Anodized. This helped tremendously in keeping the engine cool, a much better heat transfer. Paint acts like a blanket, the anodizing offered a bare and textured surface to the flow of air.
Last point: On COOLING - Lycoming HAS very POOR castings with lots of flashing in and around the fins, especially around the spark plug. Before you install the cylinders check the flashing in those areas. You will have a hard time believing this but: I cleaned up the flashing on an O-360 and the CHT's dropped 40 F... YES, No lie, a drop of 40 Degrees F. Clean up was done with a few 1/8" round files.
Hope all this info helps.
Barry
On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 9:52 PM, mds4878 <mike.nova1973(at)gmail.com (mike.nova1973(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote] --> LycomingEngines-List message posted by: "mds4878" <mike.nova1973(at)gmail.com (mike.nova1973(at)gmail.com)>
I have a IO-540-C4B5 and I'm getting ready to buy new cylinders.
What is the best cylinder to buy.
Lycoming. 05K21102
ECI Nickel TISN10.1CA
ECI Steel TIST10.1CA
Millennium SL36006N-A20P
I think all of these are correct but what does everyone think is the best ones to buy? Please give your opinion.
[Question] [Question]
--------
RV-10 #40447
Fuselage almost done.
[b]
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?LycomingEngines-List |
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rv10pro(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:23 am Post subject: IO-540 Cylinders |
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Barry,
Lots of good information. The subject of Hydrogen Embrittlement should be studied by most Amateur Builders. I find few that take the time (for whatever reason and you won't find it on the archives). Use of the wrong chemicals or processes can shorten the life of an aircraft or in your example the engine long before it should.
I have seen Nitrided cylinders which tend to corrode more rapidly than Steel due to high humidity environments such as Oregon, much quicker than the steel. I have seen older chromed cylinders begin to flake off using a boroscope after the oil sample sent out an alarm on normal screening. All of your points are great to consider. The area not discussed is a well executed break-in. Personally, and treading carefully on your "Opinion" statement, I am a strong advocate on Barrett's dyno'ed printout. Let me go out on a limb and say that paying the extra for them to "Run it longer" to complete a sound break-in seems like a wise thing to do when strapping a new engine onto a new airframe during the Phase One. Oil consumption can be significantly altered by a correctly broken in powerplant. Most builders tackle cooling issues simultaneously while tending to Flight Characteristics and build nuisances. The Nall Report shows we as Experimental builders contribute to a higher incident of accident's by doing too much simultaneously during Phase One. I unfortunately know of too many who cut corners during this key step in the build process.
I concur that Bart or Rhonda would be excellent starting points. I respect Jesse's experience as he now has far more engines out there than most builders see in a lifetime of building. Your post was illuminating.
Another factor is Use or lack thereof. The average AB aircraft MIGHT see 40-50 hours a year. It also sees unfortunately large periods of dormant storage. Flying only once a month or even just once a week has a big impact on wear. Flying everyday makes a significant reduction in wear. Most of us can't meet that requirement unless we share the use of the airframe with a friend. Bringing an engine up to temperature prior to start-up rotation closes gaps, increases oil delivery and significantly reduces wear. Reiff heaters when properly used have a great Cost/Benefit. They are not just for the faint of heart North of the Mason/Dixon line in the winter. Higher rpms above Idle Cutoff helps in keeping down Klinker development and uneven exhaust valve seating (750 to 850) due to additional heat generated. Few operators run Lean of Peak for Ground Idle or Warmup. An interesting digression.
I have seen a lot of powerplants go well beyond TBO (Lycoming recommended Overhaul) through judicious use of common sense and sound practices. Everything over TBO is free engine cost. Everything well short of TBO should be a case study in Pilot Operation, Operator knowledge and other physical factors. In our group it is often, "It couldn't be me..... it must be faulty manufacturing". My impression was the question was a search for the best longevity. It could be misread as the Cheapest Cost. Fortunately that should not be the issue. Technical Support and Warranty policies are two others. Hence Rhonda or Bart.
Frequent Oil samples early in the first 250 hours during break-in, dropped off to annually just before Conditional Inspection with Oil Change and increased at the period 1500 hours and even more frequently in the 1800 to 2000 and beyond. I am always amazed at the whining over its cost. Guess it is just like the cost of Avgas 100.
John Cox
still grinning from OSH '13
On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 5:52 AM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]Mike:
Great question but unfortunately the responses will be opinions and there is a saying about 'opinions': Opinions are like assholes, everybody's hs one and they all stink!
But, since you asked for an opinion here you go AND I will supply as much fact as I know.
Lycoming - NO WAY!
Lycoming has been in business for many, many years and reviewing their history they have made very little efforts in the way of progress. Consider the amount of AD's against Lycoming products and their recent (maybe 4 years old at this time) court case of Bad Steel for the crank shaft. Yes, the case was won in their favor but it was a case of who had deeper pockets and they did. They have great lawyers. And it is the lawyers that run Lycoming, NOT the engineers. The only time they make changes is when forced to by law suits.
Think of all the advancements throughout the engine industry and look where they are now. Only as far as the lawyers will let them.
OK - Enough - I'm a bit confident in that you understand where I am coming from, let's move on.
ECI - YES, but a difficult decision.
ECI has gone through some rough times with a Very Expensive AD on their cylinders. They have made changes. They have Highly Supported their customers with the swapping of old cylinders for New - new Design cylinders. AND they have the Eye of the Tiger. Many a company would have rolled over and closed their doors and filed for Chapter 11. They did not! I would suggest you call ECI and talk to a few people there and see if you get the Warm Fuzzy feeling that inspires confidence.
Now to talk Nickel Vs Steel cylinders.
Here I can supply you with lots of REAL information. I worked for many years in the metal coating industry as a QA Engineer/Manager and as a Technical Sales Engineer. Here are some simple facts:
1 - Steel is harder than Nickel.
2 - The nickel can be applied through two processes -
a> Electroplating which requires electrodes to be place inside the cylinders and is known to NOT give a uniform coating, and
b> Electroless plating which is a much more uniform coating. And is less time consuming and therefore less expensive. My money would be that the cylinders are Electroless Plates.
The next question is which will last longer, Steel or Nickel?
The answer is STEEL! Steel will have a hardness in the range of 65 to 85 Rockwell C.
Nickel is NOWHERE near that. Matter of FACT! Nickel hardness is NOT rated in Rockwell it is rated in Vickers with some people using Brindle and THEN mathematically or via a chart converted over to Rockwell. the Vickers range is 485 to 750 Vhn. Problem here is the NUMBERS LIE! Look up the conversion between Vickers to Rockwell and you will find three charts... Pick one! They all lie.
Other Things to Consider:
1 - Nickel would be applied in a thin coating of about 0.003" Thick for this type of cylinder application. MANY times not even that thick... Maybe 0.0007 to 0.001"
2 - BONDING of the Nickel to the steel barrel is a MAJOR concern - Read that as a PROBLEM. Nickel does NOT bond well to hardened base materials. ACIDS should be used to help the bonding BUT - Acids cause Hydrogen Embrittlement.
I'm not going into that - you can look it up.
3 - To harden nickel you heat it at 500 to 700 F preferably in a electric oven. <-- CO$Tly... Do you think many companies will do that? What do you think REHEATING (under operation) it will do at say 1500 F? Do you think it will last long?
4 - WARE - Now you are going to take a hardened steel, the Rings (Rockwell 70 to 90 Rc) and rub them against Nickel... Do you really think the nickel will last long?
5 - The sales point of nickel is corrosion protection. Sure! Buy the engine, never run the engine and the barrels will last long... All the other ferrous parts will rust through.
6 - CHROME - You did not mention it, but I will: Very difficult to get a uniform coating because it is; or should be, a trivalent Electroplating process. VERY HARD - Very Difficult to get the rings to seat. Usually results in high oil consumption. Because of these issues, that is why the advertising department - NOT KNOWLEDGEABLE ENGINEERS have switched to nickel. Still a poor choice.
BOTTOM LINE on Steel Vs Nickel/Chrome... GO WITH STEEL.
NOW, just to muddy the waters (confuse things) just a little more: There are two different ways of achieving hardness in steel barrels:
a> Flame Hardening a.k.a. Heat Treating and
b> Nitriding - Chemically hardening.
Both are GOOD - The difference is CO$T. Flame hardening is the more expensive. The next question you should be thinking about is: How deep is the barrel treated? In both methods it is about 0.040" Deep. That means IF you keep your cylinders for three overhauls you will still have enough material to work with. An overhaul increases the size of the cylinder by 0.010" EACH TIME. That means a 0.005" cut each time plus the ware of say 0.005". More than enough hardened thickness.
Millennium Cylinders - All the same above applies. They also had their share of AD's. There was one on the pistons for porosity, I believe that affected all manufactures since they were all buying from the Brazilian manufacturer.
My Lycoming O-320 had Millennium Superior Cylinders - One thing I really liked about them was the fins were NOT painted - They were Hard Coat Anodized. This helped tremendously in keeping the engine cool, a much better heat transfer. Paint acts like a blanket, the anodizing offered a bare and textured surface to the flow of air.
Last point: On COOLING - Lycoming HAS very POOR castings with lots of flashing in and around the fins, especially around the spark plug. Before you install the cylinders check the flashing in those areas. You will have a hard time believing this but: I cleaned up the flashing on an O-360 and the CHT's dropped 40 F... YES, No lie, a drop of 40 Degrees F. Clean up was done with a few 1/8" round files.
Hope all this info helps.
Barry
On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 9:52 PM, mds4878 <mike.nova1973(at)gmail.com (mike.nova1973(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> LycomingEngines-List message posted by: "mds4878" <mike.nova1973(at)gmail.com (mike.nova1973(at)gmail.com)>
I have a IO-540-C4B5 and I'm getting ready to buy new cylinders.
What is the best cylinder to buy.
Lycoming. 05K21102
ECI Nickel TISN10.1CA
ECI Steel TIST10.1CA
Millennium SL36006N-A20P
I think all of these are correct but what does everyone think is the best ones to buy? Please give your opinion.
[Question] [Question]
--------
RV-10 #40447
Fuselage almost done.
s-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?LycomingEngines-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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[b]
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