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Zenith's Annoying Documentation
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n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

NYTerminate -



The image you posted is correct, but that's not the one I was talking about.



Look at page 12 of flaperon doc 2 of 3. Look at the first image, splice

plates up (it's wrong).



 Look at the second image with the blocks under it, and the note

below saying the blocks are under the inboard section. OK you said it

looked right. Ok imagine flipping that part to rightside up. OK - Now you

will realize you have a inboard flaperon deflected 20mm up - OOPS. 

AND the splice plate is not in agreement with the first image. Look

at that page again you will see what I mean.



They forgot to ship my box of clairvoyance with the kit, so I'm slightly

handicapped, so maybe I think that might be the problem. 



Regards

Jeff

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

Ben -



So did you ever notice any documentation issues that Zenith has? If so did

you get them to update the manuals, so that when I build mine I don't

have the same problems? 



How bout that flaperon issue I mentioned? 



Regards,

Jeff

Michael Valentine

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 108

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:55 pm Post subject: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

I have held off on commenting on this because didn't want to complain... but, I agree that the manual is less than good - barely acceptable given that in this day and age the problems could be corrected in minutes.

 

I am responding to this post in particular because I have heard through the grapevine that Zenith was given this very offer by a builder who was qualified to create a top-notch manual and declined.  I don't think it was over compensation. 



As for simply complaining, people who monitor this list in order to decide what to build should certainly get to know what they are getting in to.



Michael in NH



do not archive



 On 3/15/07, NamesChangedTo... <n61601(at)gmail.com (n61601(at)gmail.com)> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "NamesChangedTo..." <n61601(at)gmail.com (n61601(at)gmail.com)>



I'm hearing a lot more of cursing the darkness than lighting of candles.



 If you don't like the documentation, do something about it.  Since you know what documentation should be, contact Zenith and offer to rewrite their manuals.  If you agree to take payment in Zenith parts, you could even profit from it. 



I'm sorry if this offends, but complaning to people who can't fix your problem is a waste of everyones time.



Spit or get off the spitoon,

NamesChangedToProtectTheInnocent





Read this topic online here: 



[b]

NYTerminat(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:58 pm Post subject: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

Rick,

  

 Just so everyone understands, The 801 does not have drawings like the   601 and 701. They are basically just assembly photos and assembly drawings. The  801 does not have drawings to scratch build, which the 601 and 701 have. This is  a big drawback when trying to figure out parts and assemblies and  extrapolating information. But getting back to the subject, the Zenith dwgs  aren't that bad compared to others. 

  

 Bob Spudis

  

  

  

  

  

 In a message dated 3/15/2007 3:56:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  zodie(at)adelphia.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Zenith-List message posted by: "rickpitcher"    <zodie(at)adelphia.net>



[quote="n85ae"]With regards to the builders    comments, about accepting the manuals

as-is for a hobby we love.



So    it is OK, to spend on the order of $20K for a kit, in an industry such as    aviation, and be accepting of manuals which are at absolute best "mediocre"?    

[end quote]

If by "mediocre" you mean average or moderate, then    Yes, I'd say it is OK.

I built an Avid Flyer several years ago, the    documentation and drawings had FAR less information than the ZAC drawings that    I used when I scratch build a 601HD. Every bit of data that I needed was on    the blueprints. You might have to extrapolate some of the numbers from other    references, but that's part of the challenge of building your own    airplane.

Always go by the blueprint. The photos and builder's manuals    should be considered to be a guide to help explain (or confuse) the    process.



Just my $0.02 

Rick Pitcher

airplane builder     

	


 

  



AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

dave.thompson(at)verizon.
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:10 pm Post subject: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

You should try to follow some telephone system manuals! Many are written by Asian engineers and translated by someone who speaks English as a second language. After 30-years of that, Zenith’s manuals are great!   

   

Dave Thompson  

Do not archive  

       [quote][b]

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:32 am Post subject: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

Yup, there were/are several mistakes in the manual. On a few ocasions when I called Zenith Nick did listen to my thoughts and he did change the online manuals the very next day. Zenith has the printed booklets already done up so my guess is when they are ready for reprinting they will make corrections then. Was I a little annoyed when I stumbled on some of the mistakes, yup,,, But, if this building thing was easy, woman and children could build an 801. !!!! <G> 

As for the flaperon issue, it has been a few years since I built mine and I haven't gone to the manual to look at the pics in question. I do remember there are other inverted pics though that had me confused for a minute.Of the whole plane the only thing on it that had/still has me concerned is that very splice, If it breaks during a full flap approach you are in deep s(at)#h ([email]s(at)#h[/email]). I even went so far as to silkscreen my airspeed indicator to show VFE at 70 mph, not 80. Remember, the FAA says building an experimental is for educational purposes, I is pretty smart now and I love my toy..  Jeff, have you spoken to Nick or Roger about this issue??  

do not archive

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



-- "n85ae" <n85ae(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

--> Zenith-List message posted by: "n85ae" <n85ae(at)yahoo.com>



Ben -



So did you ever notice any documentation issues that Zenith has? If so did

you get them to update the manuals, so that when I build mine I don't

have the same problems? 



How bout that flaperon issue I mentioned? 



Regards,

Jeff





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=100892#100892



_-================================================sp;         - NEW&nbspp;content now also available via the Web&n=======================================

   [quote][b]

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:27 am Post subject: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

Hi Ben -



My experience is that the tech support is great, so long as it is confined

to simple questions. They largely cannot answer engineering type 

questions, which makes me wonder - If there is a single degreed 

engineer other than Chris in the place? I suspect that they don't.



I have not received so much as an aknowledgement to anything that

could be construed as criticism, constructive or not. Which makes me

feel like there is a certain arrogance in parts of the company.



The front office, and the parts and sales people are wonderfull. First rate

and get stuff out ASAP. No complaints about them.



About the manuals, I can accept that the they're not great. It's the part

about NOT fixing something that would be relatively simple, after as many

as eight years (per the revision dates). Which is then followed with a sort

of attitude. That's the part which makes one go from being annoyed to

pissed off.



Oh, by the way - I LOVE MY KITFOX - But I think Skystar Aircraft Corp

sucked, and I'll spit on that corporation's grave every chance I get. 

Just have to keep it clear what's what.



Regards,

Jeff

planejim(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:59 am Post subject: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

Hey listers,



Caleb at the Mexico Missouri Plant is a Aeronautical Engineering Graduate. I 

asked him and at least that's what he told me. When I built my 601HD ( 

1995/1996 period ) I found about five errors with the old hand drawn 

Drawings ( we didn't have a Construction Manual  except a few pages of 

general items ). The next revision of the drawings had all the corrections 

made to the benefit of those who built later! They did include my inputs! 

Our "Picture Book" in those days was about six or eight black and white 

general pictures.



 However, helping a friend on a 701 recently, we have found a few 

discrepancies in the drawings. On the Zenith site I see Revisions show up 

from time to time. Let's hope all the true errors get corrected.



 The biggest problem my friend has though ( this is his third homebuilt ) is 

not looking far enough ahead and making sure you look every where in the 

Drawings, Manual and Pictures before starting on something. That's not the 

fault of the Kit Supplier.



do not archive



Jim Hoak



---

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:12 am Post subject: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

Hi Jeff,



I mostly agree with your comments about the folks at Zenith, but I 

can offer a little more information.



Firstly, Chris Heintz is the father of the principal guys at 

Zenith.  His sons Sebastian and Nicholas run that company.  I doubt 

that Chris ever had anything significant to do with ZAC.  He did do 

the original airplane designs, but he is retired now.



I have spoken to two different engineers at ZAC.  Both are competent 

aeronautical engineers, but both sound quite young.  They are able to 

discuss engineering issues, but they are not seasoned "Senior" 

designers like Chris.  I suggest you ask to speak to an engineer when 

you call with questions that need engineering judgement to answer.



I agree with you completely about Shirley when it comes to order 

handling. She is just wonderful.  Also, Nick and Roger seem competent 

to deal with general questions and they are both very cooperative.  I 

also feel the parts from Zenith are very high quality and always are 

made from the proper materials with satisfactory dimensions.  (Some 

pilot holes didn't meet this standard, but I am willing to overlook 

that problem -- I just learned to order replacement parts without the 

pilot holes.)  Personally, I have no use for Sebastian but that could 

be a personal matter.  He is supposed to be the CEO there, and since 

I have also filled that role in a small company my expectations are 

higher than other's might be.



One issue some kit builders may not know about is the language 

difficulties apparent with all the Heintz boys.  English is not their 

first language, and it shows in the language used in both the photo 

guide and the prints.  I don't think this is an attitude problem but 

rather a personal language skill issue.



I hope these comments help clear up the situation.  I am not best 

pleased with the whole issue of document quality, but I am resigned 

to living with things as they are.  I feel it is up to me to complete 

my plane with all the help I can get and problems I must overcome.  I 

also feel the problems are balanced by the sheer volume of documents 

that come with a ZAC kit.  This is a lot more than my first airplane 

kit included.



Best regards,



Paul

XL fuselage





At 06:27 AM 3/16/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hi Ben -



My experience is that the tech support is great, so long as it is confined

to simple questions. They largely cannot answer engineering type

questions, which makes me wonder - If there is a single degreed

engineer other than Chris in the place? I suspect that they don't.



I have not received so much as an aknowledgement to anything that

could be construed as criticism, constructive or not. Which makes me

feel like there is a certain arrogance in parts of the company.



The front office, and the parts and sales people are wonderfull. First rate

and get stuff out ASAP. No complaints about them.



About the manuals, I can accept that the they're not great. It's the part

about NOT fixing something that would be relatively simple, after as many

as eight years (per the revision dates). Which is then followed with a sort

of attitude. That's the part which makes one go from being annoyed to

pissed off.



Oh, by the way - I LOVE MY KITFOX - But I think Skystar Aircraft Corp

sucked, and I'll spit on that corporation's grave every chance I get. 

Just have to keep it clear what's what.



Regards,

Jeff


	


-

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:38 pm Post subject: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

Ben-

     Better watch out about the  "Women" reference. 

 Bill Naumuk

HDS Fuse/Corvair

Townville, Pa

 [quote]   ---

gboothe5(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:08 pm Post subject: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

That’s right!  Better change that to “…Cavemen…”  

     

Gary Boothe 

 Cool, CA 

 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done, 

 Tail done, wings done, working on c-section   

Do not archive      

  

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk

 Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 3:36 PM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation  

  

     

Ben-  

    

    Better watch out about the "Women" reference.   

    

Bill Naumuk

 HDS Fuse/Corvair

 Townville, Pa  

  [quote]    

---

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:27 pm Post subject: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

Bens a big boy..... The <G> means a big grin, as in it was a joke. If there are any ladies and children that take offense then tough stuff.  Kinda like the black folks having the BET = Black Entertainment Television and no one complains. If I started the White Entertainment Television network it would take all of 2 seconds till Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton started screaming racism. 



do not archive 



Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



-- "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk(at)alltel.net> wrote:

 Ben-

     Better watch out about the "Women" reference. 

 Bill Naumuk

HDS Fuse/Corvair

Townville, Pa

 [quote] ---

rickpitcher

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 76

Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:18 pm Post subject: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

---

rickpitcher

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 76

Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:48 pm Post subject: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

 	  n85ae wrote: 	
		  NYTerminate -



The image you posted is correct, but that's not the one I was talking about.



Look at page 12 of flaperon doc 2 of 3. Look at the first image, splice

plates up (it's wrong).



 Look at the second image with the blocks under it, and the note

below saying the blocks are under the inboard section. OK you said it

looked right. Ok imagine flipping that part to rightside up. OK - Now you

will realize you have a inboard flaperon deflected 20mm up - OOPS. 

AND the splice plate is not in agreement with the first image. Look

at that page again you will see what I mean.



They forgot to ship my box of clairvoyance with the kit, so I'm slightly

handicapped, so maybe I think that might be the problem. 



Regards

Jeff 	




(Reposted for Matronics web-based list. For some reason my email posts all seem to come through as blank pages:)

Jeff, I looked at the page you mentioned above and still don't see the

discrepancy.

Aren't they showing the assembly lying upside down on a flat table with the inboard section spaced raised 20mm from the table top?

Then, when the assembly is flipped right-side-up, the inboard section is

deflected 20mm down?



just trying to get a grasp on where the discreancy lies,

Rick

nyterminat(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:09 pm Post subject: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

Thank you, I thought I was going nuts.

   Bob

   do not archive

    

  

 --

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

I'm done with this thread. I think the Wiki idea is great, and provides a

means for everybody to get there 2 cents into the docs.



Jeff

rickpitcher

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 76

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:28 am Post subject: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

 	  n85ae wrote: 	
		  I'm done with this thread. I think the Wiki idea is great, and provides a

means for everybody to get there 2 cents into the docs.



Jeff 	




Jeff, don't quit now when we're getting so close to the answer.

Is the manual really wrong, or did you simply misinterpret the photos? 



thanks,

Rick

Flydog1966(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:48 am Post subject: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

In a message dated 3/16/2007 6:28:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  n801bh(at)netzero.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Kinda    like the black folks having the BET = Black Entertainment Television and no    one complains. If I started the White Entertainment Television network it    would take all of 2 seconds till Jesse Jackson and Al    Sharpton started screaming racism. 

	


 

    Or how about starting a  "White History Month"

        But now we are way of subject,so god,  please do not archive. Oops, better not bring God into this either.  :  )



AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

pacificpainting(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:31 am Post subject: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

Now you did it. This isn't even closely aviation oriented. I want my say.  Being a 50+ "slightly over weight" white guy, I say we stand up for out rights.  Our demands have not been met, and I don't even know what they are. Before  anyone says anything about this response. Don't waste your time reading it. If  you did and don't like it, you should have been working on your plane and not  sitting at your computer. So, please delete, don't whine and

  

  

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

  

 DAVE

  

  

 [quote]   ---

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:39 am Post subject: Re: Zenith's Annoying Documentation

 	  rickpitcher wrote: 	
		   	  n85ae wrote: 	
		  I'm done with this thread. I think the Wiki idea is great, and provides a

means for everybody to get there 2 cents into the docs.



Jeff 	




Jeff, don't quit now when we're getting so close to the answer.

Is the manual really wrong, or did you simply misinterpret the photos? 



thanks,

Rick 	


Yes the manual is a mess, but the this thread is dipping way too much into negativity (I admit I started it), so I just want to move on to something else.



Plus this is a thread that's a lot like the movie Braveheart with one side

screaming "Zenith is great!" and us on the other side yelling, "the

manuals stink!". I for one am too lazy to get up from the computer to 

go grab up my axe, so I'm moving along. 



Regards,

Jeff

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