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Apology
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zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:30 am Post subject: Apology

Your right and I humbly retract any statement in which I may call your

decisions and actions as Stupid, it is a very strong word to use. Please

replace all references to STUPID in my previous letter with "Willfully

disregarding Designers intentions, directions and warnings". 

Not legaleze, but it is the best I can do. 

If your trained and can accomplish a loop without exceeding 2g's then

make your own decisions to disregard the designers statements, but what

about the new pilot who see's others do it and fluffs his 701 into a 6 G

invert from lack of experience. What should we call him? I have a

thought, opp's I already expressed it and was chastised. Not to sound

mean spirited but many new people to flying are on this list, don't give

those fellows the thoughts that it is just fine to go out, and loop

there plane. 



I am curious about U.S. Law though, in Canada we had a fellow brag about

looping his plane and at a Fly-in with a Transport Canada Officer

present he was telling a story and the officer ask if he was telling the

truth. After the fellow admitted it was true the officer charged him. 



Brandon Admitted that he loops his HDS, OK he may be accomplished and

knows what he is doing and may be able to loop his plane every day for

the rest of his life and be just fine. But did he or did he not just in

formal writing admit to breaking air regulations and committing an

offense to the air regs?



Just Curious, should I ask the FAA?

Mark 

--

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:21 am Post subject: Apology

Oddly, we still have some personal freedom left in the 

USA.  Apparently more than Canada when it comes to aerobatic 

flight.  Even with the Transportation Security Administration 

insisting we all take off our shoes to look for hideous bombs 

(explosive, not odorous) before boarding an airliner and we need 

passports to fly from Canada to the USA, I believe we can still fly 

our planes however we want.  Indeed we even have an FAR that says the 

pilot in command can break any rule he wants if he feels it is 

necessary for safe completion of a flight.  I doubt this could 

justify performing loops, but a wing-over in a box canyon is another story.



I did hear of someone who had to face charges from the FAA for doing 

aerobatics in controlled airspace - a Victor airway - many years 

ago.  However, it was the danger imposed on innocent travelers in the 

airspace that was in question rather than the aerobatics.



I find myself agreeing with some of the arguments on both sides of 

this whole issue.  It is dangerous for untrained pilots to perform 

high G maneuvers in any airplane, and mostly safe for any pilot to 

perform any flight maneuver that doesn't overstress the plane he is flying.



I must fall back on a partial quote by one of the posters that in its 

entirety is:  There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old bold pilots.



For any Zenith builder who wants to risk structural failure and 

certain death by executing dangerous flight maneuvers I say:  Have 

fun.  For me, the gift of flight is enough excitement, and the 

challenge of safely conducting normal flights is quite sufficient.



Paul

XL fuselage

do not archive



At 10:28 AM 3/25/2007, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I am curious about U.S. Law though, in Canada we had a fellow brag about

looping his plane and at a Fly-in with a Transport Canada Officer

present he was telling a story and the officer ask if he was telling the

truth. After the fellow admitted it was true the officer charged him.


	


-

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:56 am Post subject: Apology

As long as you are alone in the plane, outside of controlled airspace  

and not over a populated area, there isn't much the FAA can or will  

do about it. If you're carrying a passenger, you both have to be  

wearing parachutes. The FAA doesn't much care if you kill yourself in  

an airplane as long as you don't take out anybody else with you.

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 I am curious about U.S. Law though, in Canada we had a fellow brag  

 about

 looping his plane and at a Fly-in with a Transport Canada Officer

 present he was telling a story and the officer ask if he was  

 telling the

 truth. After the fellow admitted it was true the officer charged him.




	


-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 12:06 pm Post subject: Apology

 	  Quote: 	
		   The FAA doesn't much care if you kill yourself in an airplane as long as

you don't take out anybody else with you.
	




But your heirs might have a hard time collecting on your insurance: personal

life, aircraft. 



-- Craig

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 12:21 pm Post subject: Apology

i don't remember anywhere there being a sign posted that says designer has warned us against certain aeobatic activities,  please share with us where is it posted that the designer says " please do not disregard my directions and warnings".  

It must be in just the Canadian 601 owners manual.

IN the U.S.  a statement of a willful act does not make one guilty.  If it infringes on someone elses' safety and there is evidence of harm to others, then there may be a problem.. If I go to an FAA instructor and and say,  "on the way here, it was so beautifull out and clear, I decided to pull a loop in my plane!"  The U.S. FAA guy will say, "good for you".  Its called free speech. 



Juan

--

pilot4pay

Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Louisville, KY

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 12:52 pm Post subject: Apology

--

_________________
Craig Smith
CH640 builder
SN: 0078

"Just think how stupid the average person is,
and then realize that half of them are even stupider!"
--George Carlin

pilot4pay

Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Louisville, KY

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 1:00 pm Post subject: Apology

Juan, this is just not true. The FAA will cite you if you say that, and

they know your AC is not an aerobatic aircraft. Heck, they're even searching

social security records to link disabilities to pilot medicals! If they will

go to those lengths to write a violation and revoke a pilot certificate,

don't you think operating an aircraft outside it's operating limitations

would be similar? Free speech has nothing to do with it, apples and oranges!

If any of the aircraft in the videos is US registered, lets see if someone

wants to send it in to the local FSDO, just to see what happens?

Craig Smith



--

_________________
Craig Smith
CH640 builder
SN: 0078

"Just think how stupid the average person is,
and then realize that half of them are even stupider!"
--George Carlin

dwilde(at)clearwire.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 1:49 pm Post subject: Apology

C Smith wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



  Juan, this is just not true. The FAA will cite you if you say that, and

 they know your AC is not an aerobatic aircraft. Heck, they're even searching

 social security records to link disabilities to pilot medicals! 

A social security number is no longer required for pilot identification. 
	




Dan Wilde



FAA Form 8710-1, Airman Certificate

and/or Rating Application

Supplemental Information and Instructions



Submission of your Social Security Number is voluntary. Disclosure of 

your SSN will facilitate maintenance of your records which are 

maintained in alphabetical order and cross-referenced with your SSN and 

airman certificate number to provide prompt access. In the event of 

nondisclosure, a unique number will be assigned to your file.

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:57 pm Post subject: Apology

I am not trying to be flippent, what you are saying is apples and oranges,  there is no restrition for the 601 I know of for an operating limitations stating "no Loops".  Apples and oranges, what does SS numbers have to do with performing a loop.  If you are saying the FAA are strict enforcers,  the FAA restricting pilots that lie on their medicals, does not relate to doing light aerobatics in a plane that can handle it if the pilot is capable.  The 601 is 6+-  g rated, utility, and a loop can be done, even an emilman, with  1 g.  the guy on the video I have a hunch will never be bothered by the FAA.



Juan   



--

pilot4pay

Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Louisville, KY

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 4:32 pm Post subject: Apology

--

_________________
Craig Smith
CH640 builder
SN: 0078

"Just think how stupid the average person is,
and then realize that half of them are even stupider!"
--George Carlin

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:06 pm Post subject: Apology

My aircraft registration says" experimental"  and if it said, utility,  guess what, I can still do loops.  Where does it say, operations outside of aircraft's limitations are illegal?  Is a loop outside the 601's limitations?,  I guess the loop I did in a few c-172 was...illegal?  

your right I don't get your point.



Juan



--

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:30 pm Post subject: Apology

The normal, utility and aerobatic categories do NOT apply to the  

Experimental - Amateur Built airworthiness certificate, they only  

apply to the standard airworthiness certificate. The builder of an E- 

AB aircraft is the manufacturer, he decides what the operating  

limitations are, not the kit manufacturer. The operating limitations  

are developed during the phase I testing owner / test pilot. The only  

limitation on an E-AB airworthiness certificate is the statement that  

the airplane is restricted to day VFR unless properly equipped  

according to the equipment required article of the FARs. There are NO  

RESTRICTIONS on what type of maneuvers may be performed in an E-AB.  

That is the point that you don't seem to be getting here.



On Mar 25, 2007, at 8:32 PM, C Smith wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <pilot4profit(at)sbcglobal.net>



 What does your airworthiness certificate say?



 It is clear you can't get the point.

 It relates to the great lengths that the FAA will go to stop  

 violations of

 it's policies. It is an example in point, a point of relative  

 importance.

 Specifically what does your airworthiness certificate say? It's called

 operating limitations. What does it say? Normal, utility, or  

 aerobatic? THAT

 IS YOUR LIMITATION! IT'S YOUR AIRWORTHINESS CERTIFICATE!

 What does free speech have to do with the FAA's charter to regulate  

 all

 forms of aviation? NOTHING! Your pilots certificate is not subject  

 to the

 protections of criminal law. It is an administrative hearing, not a  

 trial.

 When you are cited, you can talk to an attorney all you want, but  

 there is

 no jury, no trial, just an administrative board staffed by the FAA.


	


-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

pilot4pay

Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Louisville, KY

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:51 pm Post subject: Apology

Please see AC 20-27F certification and operation of amateur built aircraft:    

11. FAA INSPECTION OF AN AMATEUR-BUILT AIRCRAFT.  

a. General Information About What We Do and Do Not Do For Inspections.  

(1) We inspect your aircraft for general airworthiness when you submit it for airworthiness  

certification. We will not inspect it before you register it or during construction. However, we must  

inspect it before we issue your airworthiness certificate. Standard FAA policy is to issue one  

airworthiness certificate for the aircraft. In some cases, we may issue a limited duration airworthiness  

certificate, which would be valid only for flight testing (Phase I) the aircraft. When we inspect it, it  

should be ready to fly, except for having the cowlings, fairings, and panels open for inspection.  

(2) The FAA inspector cannot be involved in the building process and will not perform any  

progressive or in-process inspections during the building process. You should ask a knowledgeable  

person (for example, an EAA Technical Counselor) to conduct in-process inspections. You should  

record any such inspections in the aircraft logbook.  

(3) We consider FAA designated airworthiness representatives (DARs) the primary resource  

for the certification of amateur-built aircraft. You may contact your local FAA office to locate an  

authorized DAR. DARs are authorized to charge a fee for their services, which they set. We do not  

govern this fee.  

b. Visual Inspection. The FAA inspector will conduct an onsite, visual, general airworthiness  

certification inspection of the aircraft, including reviewing the information discussed in  

paragraphs 11c(1) and (2), before issuing a special airworthiness certificate with the appropriate  

operating limitations. With your special airworthiness certificate and operating limitations, you will be  

able to show compliance with 14 CFR part 91, General Operating and Flight Rules, § 91.319(b). The  

FAA will perform the visual inspection as shown in figure 2, FAA Visual Inspection of an  

Amateur-Built Aircraft.   

And   

12. ISSUING AN AIRWORTHINESS CERTIFICATE FOR AN AMATEUR-BUILT  

AIRCRAFT.  

a. Issuance of a Special Airworthiness Certificate and Operating Limitations.  

(1) In addition to 14 CFR requirements, the guidelines you use to operate and maintain your  

aircraft are included in your operating limitations, which become part of the special airworthiness  

certificate. We may impose additional limitations to those listed in FAA Order 8130.2, Airworthiness  

Certification of Aircraft and Related Products, if necessary for safety. References in this AC to  

“Phase I” refer to those operating limitations that apply to the aircraft while it’s undergoing initial  

flight tests. “Phase II” refers to those operating limitations that apply after you complete the initial  

flight tests. Phase I and Phase II operating limitations are provided in Order 8130.2. The FAA inspector  

will issue the special airworthiness certificate, but its validity will be subject to compliance with its  

operating limitations. Those limitations will provide for operation in an assigned flight test area for a  

certain number of hours (Phase I) before the second part (Phase II) of the limitations becomes effective,  

which releases the aircraft from the flight test area.  

(2) After we inspect your aircraft and determine it is in a condition for safe operation, we will  

issue FAA Form 8130-7, Special Airworthiness Certificate, with the appropriate operating limitations in  

accordance with Order 8130.2. Typically, we issue one airworthiness certificate per aircraft.  

(3) In accordance with § 91.203(b), you must display the airworthiness certificate and attached  

operating limitations at the cabin or cockpit entrance so that it is legible to passengers or crew while the  

aircraft is being operated. The pilot must conduct all flights under the operating limitations and part 91.  

Details concerning flight test areas are discussed in paragraph 13.  

  

And    

13. PHASE I FLIGHT TESTING.  

a. Flight Tests. Section 91.319(b) requires you to show your aircraft is controllable at all its  

normal speeds during all the maneuvers you might expect to execute.  

  

That means that you must document and demonstrate in the testing phase the aircraft with all the maneuvers you intend to operate the aircraft.  

And it states further   

AC 20-27F 9/26/2003  

14  

(3) Operating Limitations. When we issue an unlimited duration special airworthiness  

certificate, the operating limitations may be prescribed under the guidelines in Order 8130.2. The  

purpose of the operating limitations is for you to show and maintain compliance with § 91.319. The  

operating limitations include a requirement for you to endorse the aircraft maintenance record (logbook)  

with a statement certifying the aircraft has been shown to comply with that section. The limitations may  

vary for some aircraft, and we may issue additional limitations in unusual conditions in the interest of  

safety. We will review the limitations with you to make sure you thoroughly understand each one.  

14. CONTINUING TO OPERATE YOUR AMATEUR-BUILT AIRCRAFT.  

a. After you complete all required flight tests, hours, and maneuvers, the aircraft is considered safe  

for continued flight. To continue operating your aircraft, you must follow the operating limitations  

issued with the aircraft airworthiness certificate.  

b. You may not operate your aircraft without the airworthiness certificate and operating limitations  

aboard. If you lose the operating limitations or they are mutilated or no longer legible, contact your  

local FAA office for guidance or contact AFS-750 (see appendix 7 for the address) to obtain a copy of  

the operating limitations. If you cannot get a copy, ask your local FAA office to issue a replacement  

FAA Form 8130-7 and operating limitations. If you can document that the aircraft has completed the  

flight test requirements (through logbook entries), we may issue new operating limitations without initial  

flight test operating limitations.  

  

And again   

b. Operating Limitations.  

(1) The operating limitations require that you operate the aircraft under the applicable air traffic  

control and general operating rules of part 91. If you plan to operate under instrument flight rules (IFR),  

pay particular attention to the applicable requirements in part 91.  

(2) The operating limitations will authorize all operations to be conducted (visual flight rules,  

day/night, and IFR). These operating limitations may state that the instruments and equipment  

mandated by § 91.205(b), (c), and/or (d), Powered civil aircraft with standard category  

U.S. airworthiness certificates: Instrument and equipment requirements, must be installed and operable.  

In addition, these operating limitations may state flight test areas as defined in § 91.305.   

Now I'm sure there will be some argument as to what these all mean, I think they mean what they say. Unless the maneuvers were demonstrated during testing and are specifically permitted by the operating limitations a standard category is assumed.  

What I will do is call my local FSDO, and get the word from the chief enforcement officer Gary Knaggs. I will report from the horses mouth.  

CS   

--

_________________
Craig Smith
CH640 builder
SN: 0078

"Just think how stupid the average person is,
and then realize that half of them are even stupider!"
--George Carlin

rickpitcher

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 76

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:11 pm Post subject: Apology

Smitty, have you done the Phase One testing of your plane yet?

If you're gonna do any areobatics you'll have to do them during Phase One 

and enter them in the aircraft logbook.



BTW, you might have to change your email address when you get your plane 

finished, can't use experimentals 4profit 



Rick Pitcher



---

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:17 pm Post subject: Apology

Like I said, the owner / test pilot / manufacturer determines what  

the operating limitations are during phase I testing. The thing is,  

even after the airplane has been signed off for the phase II  

operation It can be put  back into phase I flight testing by the  

owner at any time and the operating limitations can be revised based  

on that additional phase I flight testing. What you are allowed to do  

under an E-AB certificate is not anywhere near as rigidly defined as  

what you are allowed to do under a normal airworthiness certificate.



On Mar 25, 2007, at 10:50 PM, C Smith wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 That means that you must document and demonstrate in the testing  

 phase the aircraft with all the maneuvers you intend to operate the  

 aircraft.



 And it states further...



 Now I'm sure there will be some argument as to what these all mean,  

 I think they mean what they say. Unless the maneuvers were  

 demonstrated during testing and are specifically permitted by the  

 operating limitations a standard category is assumed.



 What I will do is call my local FSDO, and get the word from the  

 chief enforcement officer Gary Knaggs. I will report from the  

 horses mouth.



 CS


	




-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:31 pm Post subject: Apology

Rick,

you can use 601 ELSAs for hire (4profit) up to the end of 2008.  New LSA rules allow for it.

JUan



--

rickpitcher

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 76

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:09 pm Post subject: Apology

---

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:06 am Post subject: Re: Apology

Just from memory, I thought a regular Cessna 152 was +4 and -3 Gs where as an aerobat is +6, -6 Gs, which is the same as a 601Xl, so wouldn't that by default qualify a 601XL as an aerobatic plane by default? That wouldn't apply to the 701 though.



 	  pilot4pay wrote: 	
		  Juan, this is just not true. The FAA will cite you if you say that, and

they know your AC is not an aerobatic aircraft. Heck, they're even searching

social security records to link disabilities to pilot medicals! If they will

go to those lengths to write a violation and revoke a pilot certificate,

don't you think operating an aircraft outside it's operating limitations

would be similar? Free speech has nothing to do with it, apples and oranges!

If any of the aircraft in the videos is US registered, lets see if someone

wants to send it in to the local FSDO, just to see what happens?

Craig Smith



--

secatur

Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Posts: 50
Location: New Zealand

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:07 am Post subject: Re: Apology

All this to-ing and fro-ing leads to one end. YOU CAN"T LEGISLATE AGAINST STUPIDITY ! 



So whatever you decide is a right action for you..JUST DON"T BE STUPID!

steveadams

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 191

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:09 am Post subject: Re: Apology

 	  amyvega2005(at)earthlink. wrote: 	
		  Rick,

you can use 601 ELSAs for hire (4profit) up to the end of 2008.  New LSA rules allow for it.

JUan



-- 	




Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe there are any E-LSA 601's. A conforming kit has not been approved.

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