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jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:53 pm Post subject: Floats

[quote="Steve Boetto"]In a message dated 3/24/2007 9:09:12 A.M.  Steve Boetto

 Firefly 007 on Floats   

              

Steve, I was wondering how an Ultrastar compares to your Firefly in terms of its capability to use floats?



I will soon have acquired an Ultrastar with the Cuyuna 35 hp engine and want to put floats on it.



How light should my floats be to get a satisfactory performance with the 35 HP or is it even doeable?



I realize the low prop and spray will be a concern for me so I was thinking of a bigger single main body style float with the two midwing outriggers.



Perhaps dual floats with a good spray deflector near the prop area might work as well.



Any suggestions?



Ray

Lake Elsinore, CA

jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: newbie

Im also a newbie to the Kolb list.....with my impending acquisition of a Kolb Ultrastar next month.



My background is gliders(HP-11), Motor Glider(Moni), Paragliders(P43), and a Lazair.....I wont bore you with all the good reasons to fly all that other stuff.



Diversity is great and each form of aviation is a personal choice for the environment and condition of the pilot....a time and place for every occasion.



Now Im onto a Kolb Ultrastar, because:

- it can handle more wind than the Lazair.

- Its a part 103 Ultralight.

- Does not burn to much gas.

- I can paint it up to look great.

- It will actually make headway in a 30mph wind.

- Im hoping I can flyit from the lake with floats.

- its going to be fun and easy to tinker with.

- I can get a good wind in my hair flight with it. 

- I can take off from fairly rough airstips/meadows/beach/sandbar strips with it.

- I can keep it in my backyard and trailer it where ever.

- It just looks and sounds like a blast to fly.

- Ive always admired the Kolbs design and really wanted 

to have one of my own.



Ray

Lake Elsinore, CA

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 365

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:35 pm Post subject: newbie

In a message dated 3/26/2007 4:20:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  jb92563(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

Now    Im onto a Kolb Ultrastar, because:

- it can handle more wind than the    Lazair.

- Its a part 103 Ultralight.

- Does not burn to much gas.

- I    can paint it up to look great.

- It will actually make headway in a 30mph    wind.

- Im hoping I can flyit from the lake with floats.

- its going to    be fun and easy to tinker with.

- I can get a good wind in my hair flight    with it. 

- I can take off from fairly rough airstips/meadows/beach/sandbar    strips with it.

- I can keep it in my backyard and trailer it where    ever.

- It just looks and sounds like a blast to fly.

- Ive always    admired the Kolbs design and really wanted 

to have one of my    own.



Ray

Lake Elsinore, CA



	


 

 Ray,

  

 I would seriously consider a Firefly. There are always good used ones out  there.

  

  US Points to consider:

 Prop issue

 Tall mount config required

 Very thin wall tubing in a wet environment

 I don't know if you can fold the US with Floats

 More HP on the FF

 More up to date engine on the FF

  

 If you go with the US I will try answer what I can but I have no direct  experiance.

  

 steve b



AOL now offertle="http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000339" href="http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000339" target="_blank">AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:18 am Post subject: Re: newbie

Hi Steve,



Interesting points you mentioned.



What do you mean by VERY thinwalled tubing in a wet environment?



Are you talking about the welded structure of the US?



Is the FF welded structure of thicker tubing?



Its Crome-Molly tubing on the US as far as I know from my friend.



I assume those floats are ~29lbs each right? 



and you can use the parachute allowance? meaning that you do not have a parachute but floats instead?



Pardon all the questions from a newbie, but my other aircraft are experimental category and I dont know about all the ins/out of the Part 103 category.



I dont think the FF is in my budget right now...the US Im getting is only 3K with a trailer, 2 Cuyuna 430's a 2 blade and 3 blade prop.

The wing has a 6" tear in the covering that I need to repair and is otherwise in decent corrosion free condition.



Ray

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 365

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:48 am Post subject: newbie

Hi Ray, 

 According to TNK the Ultrastars were typically .028 wall chrome moly. Some  early FF were also .028. All of the later FF's are either 50/50 .028 and .035 or  all .035. My comment in regard to Very thin wall tubing was directed at the  concern for where you attach loads and also the issue of internal rust from  years of age. The configuration I saw years ago placed loads on the front of the  cage. I do not believe it was designed for that. The Ultrastar looks to be  challenging for float mounting.

  

 If you have a BRS that weighs less than 24 lbs you can use the   overage but the chute has to be on.

  

 Part 103 gives you up to 60 lbs total for the floats but if your floats  weigh less you cannot keep the extra and it does not apply to the mounting gear  or spreader bars. This is not much of a factor though because you will have a  hard time finding floats that weigh less than 30 lbs each.

  

 Good luck on your project.

  

 Steve

 do not archive



AOL not AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 365

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:57 am Post subject: newbie

Ray 

 Also wanted to mention that the key here is to keep your mounting hardware  lighter than your existing gear legs, tires, wheels and brakes.  It is easy  to do on the FF and you actually end up with a little extra weight loss to play  with.  On a Firefly you need to keep it simple and drop the frills and add  BRS to stay in weight in a Float configuration.

  

 Steve

  

 do not archive

  



AOL now offersle="http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000339" href="http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000339" target="_blank">AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:42 am Post subject: Re: newbie

I would defintely go for the Firefly, its an updated and improved design...  If you cannot afford it, then it will have to be the older ultrastar, but they are old and I would check for rust, corrosion, etc. very carefully.



Why are you so worried about weight ?   The ultrastar and the firefly are 103 airplanes, I dont think anyone is going to come out and weigh you on the lake or grass field to see if you are 5 pounds over or not.   Dont get too anal about the weight.   If I needed a chute, and it put me 5 pounds over weight, i would sure as hell put it on.  Maybe some guys would feel good about getting killed "legally" after a structural failure because they were not 5 pounds over weight, but not me.   I would put on a BRS, period.  If my 103 plane needed something to make it safer, whatever it may be, I would sure as heck put it on and not worry about 5 or 10 pounds that will never make any difference to anyone.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:51 am Post subject: Re: newbie

I just want to keep it light so I get decent performance with floats on an US with Cuyuna 430.



I plan on WEARING my chute, as I'd rather not be in the seat with the engine and wings behind or above my head if I crash.



I'll take my chances with the tree branches....LOL (No rhyming intended)

_________________
Ray

Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider

Do Not Archive

knowvne(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:45 am Post subject: newbie

The weight of the BRS or any other recover system is a NON issue for 

part 103........

  Your legal with or without it regardless of its weight... Put one on 

the plane...



 Â§103.1 Applicability.

  This part prescribes rules governing the operation of ultralight 

vehicles in the United States.

  For the purposes of this part, an ultralight vehicle is a vehicle 

that:



  (a) Is used or intended to be used for manned operation in the air by 

a single occupant;



  (b) Is used or intended to be used for recreation or sport purposes 

only;



 (c) Does not have any U.S. or foreign airworthiness certificate; and



 (d) If unpowered, weighs less than 155 pounds; or



 (e) If powered:



  (1) Weighs less than 254 pounds empty weight, excluding floats and 

safety devices

  which are intended for deployment in a potentially catastrophic 

situation;



 (2) Has a fuel capacity not exceeding 5 U.S. gallons;



  (3) Is not capable of more than 55 knots calibrated airspeed at full 

power in level flight; and



  (4) Has a power-off stall speed which does not exceed 24 knots 

calibrated airspeed.



 Mark



  Why are you so worried about weight ? The ultrastar and the firefly 

are 103

 airplanes,



 I dont think anyone is going to come out and weigh you on the lake or

  grass field to see if you are 5 pounds over or not. Dont get too anal 

about

  the weight. If I needed a chute, and it put me 5 pounds over weight, i 

would

  sure as hell put it on. Maybe some guys would feel good about getting 

killed

  "legally" after a structural failure because they were not 5 pounds 

over weight,

  but not me. I would put on a BRS, period. If my 103 plane needed 

something to

  make it safer, whatever it may be, I would sure as heck put it on and 

not worry

 about 5 or 10 pounds that will never make any difference to anyone.



 Mike



________________________________________________________________________

from AOL at AOL.com.

=0

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 365

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:02 pm Post subject: newbie

In a message dated 3/28/2007 1:43:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  orcabonita(at)hotmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

Why    are you so worried about weight ?   The ultrastar and the firefly    are 103 airplanes, I dont think anyone is going to come out and weigh you on    the lake or grass field to see if you are 5 pounds over or not.      Dont get too anal about the weight.   If I needed a chute, and it    put me 5 pounds over weight, i would sure as hell put it on.  Maybe some    guys would feel good about getting killed "legally" after a structural failure    because they were not 5 pounds over weight, but not me.   I would    put on a BRS, period.  If my 103 plane needed something to make it safer,    whatever it may be, I would sure as heck put it on and not worry about 5 or 10    pounds that will never make any difference to  anyone.



Mike

	


 

 Hi Mike,

  

 The issue with weight is important to me for several reasons,

  

 At times I put my FF on display at the Kolb Booth And it should be legal at  that time

 The BRS is a non  issue because the one I am using weighs less than 24  lbs.  You do not get the 24 lbs if it is not on the plane. If yours for  example weighed 15 lbs then you get the extra 9 lbs free to use. 

 I also like the personal challenge to play by the rules and win.

 Probably most important though is that a Legal Firefly on Floats with a  pilot that weighs less than 180 lbs really performs.

  

 If I was interested in traveling greater distances I would register  EAB.

  

 Steve B

 do not archive



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 365

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:06 pm Post subject: newbie

Mark,  I see you beat me to the Punch,  Well said, a BRS is a Win  Win, except on the checkbook 

  

  

  

  

  

 steve

 do not archive



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:50 pm Post subject: newbie

Ray

You might want to do some re-thinking.

I doubt you'd be able to get out of a Kolb in time,  if something  

suddenly happened, esp at a low altitude.

I've done some jumping, but never had the luxury of flying a chute- 

equipped aircraft.  I consider it a HUGE advantage.

You could deploy it in a second or less if you had to. If a wing  

folds do you want to try opening a door & getting out in anything  

like that time?

If the price were double or even triple I'd still buy a BRS. My life  

is worth it to me.

FWIW



On Mar 28, 2007, at 2:51 PM, jb92563 wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I just want to keep it light so I get decent performance with  

 floats on an US with Cuyuna 430.



 I plan on WEARING my chute, as I'd rather not be in the seat with  

 the engine and wings behind or above my head if I crash.



 I'll take my chances with the tree branches....LOL (No rhyming  

 intended)



 --------

 Ray



 do not archive





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