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Nick(at)Scholtes1.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 12:07 pm Post subject: Flap usage

Hey KitfoxMike,



I've read several of your posts where you recommend not to use flaps, 

and I have scratched my head.  Now I understand why you recommend to 

people to not use flaps. 



I chose a KitFox because I have 600' of pasture behind my barn.  It's a 

pasture that I keep llamas in, so there's a 5' cedar fence on both 

ends.  To get in there on a calm day with the IV-1200 Speedster, I GOTTA 

use flaps, and I bring it over the approach fence at about 40 MIAS, 

which is shy of 1.3Vso, and it's gotta' be on the back side of the power 

curve.  If I don't do that, it'll float too far.  It's not the landing 

roll thats the issue, it's the float. 



Anyway, I guess my point is, the airplane will land shorter with flaps 

than without, and it's important to consider what the person's situation 

is.  If I was flying out of a tower controlled airport (I don't know of 

any that have a short runway), I wouldn't  "recommend" flaps either, I 

mean why bother with them?  But for us true short-field-sters, flaps are 

a must.



Best,



Nick



Do Not Archive

 	  Quote: 	
		  Many times I'll be doing 80 over the numbers and land 500 ft

down the runway.  




	


 	  Quote: 	
		  --------

kitfoxmike

model IV, 1200

speedster

912ul

Do not archive

rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:42 pm Post subject: Flap usage

I suspect that the IV is different than the Series 5/6/7, but I really enjoy

the flaps on my 5/7.   I have a friend with a 600 foot strip and the flaps

make it a piece of cake.  At an airport near here I have fun by landing and

turning off at the first turn.  This just blows some people's minds.



I get off the ground much faster with flaps too.   I see no reason not to

use them.



Randy.



.           

--

_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

tstaley(at)centurytel.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 5:21 pm Post subject: Flap usage

Randy,.

I have had one occasion when full flaps hurt me. Wheel landing, wheels are

on the ground and a gust of cross wind lifted one wing till the other wing

just touched the ground. I too have a short strip, 1200 and 1300, and I use

full flaps except on a windy day. After putting my main wheels on the ground

i drop my flaps putting the tail on the ground and can use the brakes if

needed safer than having the tail up and upending the airplane.

In my 5 I need to come over the fence at least 60, stalls at 55, then touch

down, take the flaps off and roll out.

LeRoy

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:19 pm Post subject: Flap usage

Hi Leroy,



--- Dacha <tstaley(at)centurytel.net> wrote:

.........

 	  Quote: 	
		   In my 5 I need to come over the fence at least 60,

 stalls at 55, then touch

 down, take the flaps off and roll out.

 LeRoy


	


Stalls at 55?  I have an S-5 with an NSI Soob and it

stalls at 45mph clean.  I wonder if your ASI is a bit

off at the low end?



Not really significant if so, because you have a

target speed to use whether correct or not.  But if

correct speed, why is it stalling so fast?  I thought

mine was stalling fast for a KitFox.



Kurt S.  S-5/NSI turbo

 

Now that's room service!  Choose from over 150,000 hotels

in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.

http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 9:17 am Post subject: Re: Flap usage

To each their own.  By the way, when I land it's right on the edge of the runway when I want to be short.  Also, I flair for 3 point and do a stall landing, sometimes I drop a foot with a good thump, no bounce, this is the way I learned to do a short landing, no float, just a nice solid thump and land. Roll out is nice and short.  The last time I checked my airspeed when flairing and landing it was 38mph. no flaps.  I know if I really wanted to land slower just put on the flaps, but I like complete full control so I rather keep the flaps off and have the 100 percent aileron control.  After all I really don't need flaps when I have over 1000ft of runway anyway.  But I will say, I  practice flap landings just to keep up on using them in case I need the extra.

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:04 am Post subject: Re: Flap usage

I never use flaps. I use slips a lot. The trick is to get used to the high

angle of attack at slow speeds. This is what discourages a lot of Kitfox 

drivers I think. If you fly in with a normal sight picture (like a Citabria,

or Cub) you're gonna float for about 10,000 ft. I generally fly 60 mph

on base/final, and slow down to about 50 over the fence and chop power

when I know I have the landing made. Mine stalls (mushes is a better

word) right around 35-40 indicated.



I have done power off slips in my plane down to very slow airspeed at

altitude. WELL before any cross controlled stall occurs I get a very

vigorous buffeting of the turtledeck.  



If it's gusty, just bump up the airspeed 5-10 mph.



The other option if you're afeared of being a carrier pilot, is to use

wheel landings. 



Jeff Hays



N85AE Series 5/IO-240B

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:20 am Post subject: Re: Flap usage

Slips are fun.  I do them all the time, just got to get used to laying on the door. Generally I do short approaches and when turning base to final I will hold the bank and just push in the appropriate rudder and turn it into a slip, very fun.

davef(at)cfisher.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:40 am Post subject: Flap usage

I use flaps alot in my  IV

Flaps help tremendously for getting the weight from gear to wings quicker 

that without.



Float flyers will find the Flapperons a great benefit as well.



take off -- 20 to 33 degree will get you off quicker.

landing -- over 20 degrees flaps really no advantage.



Movies here if you don;t agree.    http://www.cfisher.com



Dave

---

crazyivan

Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 62
Location: Pensacola

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 5:54 am Post subject: Re: Flap usage

My 2 cents...Flaps are a tool to use when the job calls for it.  Windy, gusty, crosswind conditions, you probably don't want to use flaps.  A real short runway with big trees on the approach end, use flaps.  Muddy wet grass, use flaps.  A lot of gravel, you might not want to use flaps.  



Suggestion; on ideal days practice no-flap, partial flap, and full flap landings & takeoffs.  That way, you are always prepared and know your airplane's (and your) capabilities.

_________________
Dave
Piper PA-22/20

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:35 am Post subject: Re: Flap usage

I tell ya, now that I have a new prop, I also have a new plane. New plane new problems, such as, it doesn't slow down on approach    it wants to float so to speak down the runway, the fan really blows good now. So, I'm having fun relearning the plane.  Last night I did nothing but touches, all kinds, I will say the wheel landings are near perfect now, I don't get this drop just before landing either.  I played with the flaps, and I still don't like them on when landing, now interesting enough, I did find that when I'm too fast, if I put the flaps on all the way until I'm slowed down then release them, I find myself landing just fine.



Conclusion, flaps should be used in accordance to your airplane and your type of flying, nobody else can dictate the usage.  So I guess what you need to do is go out and experiment and have fun doing it.

kitfoxpilot(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:50 am Post subject: Flap usage

Ya know, I have the same situation with my Kitfox, I have the Model IV 1200 

with 912uls!  when I use flaps on landing, the fox wants to fly again!  I 

have the Warp Drive prop and I have 16 degrees pitch set, also I stay at 

2000 rpm for idle.  I mostly do wheel landings and find they work the best 

for me.



Ray

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "kitfoxmike" <customtrans(at)qwest.net>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Flap usage

Date: Thu,  5 Apr 2007 07:35:04 -0700






I tell ya, now that I have a new prop, I also have a new plane. New plane 

new problems, such as, it doesn't slow down on approach    it wants to 

float so to speak down the runway, the fan really blows good now. So, I'm 

having fun relearning the plane.  Last night I did nothing but touches, all 

kinds, I will say the wheel landings are near perfect now, I don't get this 

drop just before landing either.  I played with the flaps, and I still 

don't like them on when landing, now interesting enough, I did find that 

when I'm too fast, if I put the flaps on all the way until I'm slowed down 

then release them, I find myself landing just fine.



Conclusion, flaps should be used in accordance to your airplane and your 

type of flying, nobody else can dictate the usage.  So I guess what you 

need to do is go out and experiment and have fun doing it.



--------

kitfoxmike

model IV, 1200

speedster

912ul

Do not archive





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=105121#105121






	


_________________________________________________________________

Can’t afford to quit your job? – Earn your AS, BS, or MS degree online in 1 

year. 

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n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:37 am Post subject: Re: Flap usage

I never use flaps in mine, I fly nice slow approaches, I use slips for 

glideslope control whenever I need them from up high, to almost

touchdown. I pretty much always 3-pt. my landings. I can tailwheel 

first the landings with no trouble, and I can pretty much stop within

my planes own takeoff distance.



My opinion, is that the only benefit to the flaperons for landing my plane

is the sight picture is better over the nose. But they eat up elevator. 

I can land and stop my plane just as easily and quickly with or without

them, so I simply don't use them. In my opinion they produce no usefull

amount of drag, so given the choice I don't use them. 



I think the real issue with landing a Kitfox like mine, is just fly it SLOW.

That's like 1.3 Vso (Vso= ~35-40 x 1.3 = 45-52). That feels REALLY slow,

most pilots feel subconciously that it's too slow, and start sweating on a 

45-50 mph approach, so the crank in an extra 10-15 mph to get back

into a cessnalike comfort zone. Floatcity.



When I first started flying it, I flew it like other planes ...  Which led

to nothing but problems, with long floating touchdowns. Phase two I

started doing wheel landings. Which at the time, I thought were the

solution. But really, it was just a a bandage over the real problem, 

which was my own fear of flying slow.



Now most of the time. I fly fairly fast base/final, and scrub off speed

on final with slips, and come across the wire around 50 unless it's windy

and gusty then depending I sometimes wheel land it, or just let it float a

bit longer than usual.  If there's traffic, I generally fly a very tight, very

steep approach with lots of slip to get out of the way of the other fast

planes.  



Jeff

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 12:00 pm Post subject: Flap usage

Ray,



I found that I floated a bit recently and determined that the cables had 

apparently stretched a bit and I couldn't pull the throttle off to my 

original set idle.  I like the idle stops set so I can get about 1600 rpm at 

idle max, but will always run while idling at 2000 or so.  This way I can 

pull to a lower idle on approach for shorter landings.  A friend has his 

idle stops set at zero rpm for really short landings, but I am not 

comfortable with that idea yet.



If your stop is set at 2000 rpm, it might be set a tad high.



Lowell



---

kitfoxpilot(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:04 pm Post subject: Flap usage

I have the idle rpm set at 2000, Lockwood said that was a good rpm for the 

912uls!  I gotta admitt, it takes longer to slow down!!  I was thinking of 

1700 or 1800 for idle rpm.  One thing I noticed, when the engine warms up, 

it bumps up to 2000, but when cold 1800!  What am I doing wrong?



Ray

[quote]From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Flap usage

Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 12:59:41 -0700






Ray,



I found that I floated a bit recently and determined that the cables had 

apparently stretched a bit and I couldn't pull the throttle off to my 

original set idle.  I like the idle stops set so I can get about 1600 rpm 

at idle max, but will always run while idling at 2000 or so.  This way I 

can pull to a lower idle on approach for shorter landings.  A friend has 

his idle stops set at zero rpm for really short landings, but I am not 

comfortable with that idea yet.



If your stop is set at 2000 rpm, it might be set a tad high.



Lowell



---

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:26 pm Post subject: Re: Flap usage

Mine is set for about 1600 if I pull it back as far as it will go.  When landing and about to touch having it all the way back helps but when settleing down the engine can run rough and if you need to do a go around the engine could quit or delay.  So just as  I land I give a little push of the throttle(friction lock) and make sure the engine is running smooth, usually in the possision of 2000 rpm.

rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:29 pm Post subject: Flap usage

Ray, 

For another data point, I have my 912S set about 1700 - 1800 for idle.  I

only get it down that low for landing though.  Usually try for about 2000

for warm up or waiting.



Randy



.           

--

_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

kirkhull(at)kc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 5:33 pm Post subject: Flap usage

Man those rotax like to spin fast.  My sub powered classic 4 is set to idle

around 700 RPM. You can just barely hear the cam .  nice and smooth.  What

is the redline on a rotax.(  mine is 100hp (at)5400rpm) 



--

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:38 am Post subject: Flap usage

I use full (20°) flaps on my IV on all landings. I made two landings  

Sunday in 20 mph crosswinds (with gusts to 29 according to the 15- 

miles-away tower) and I can still use the plane. : )

When my flight instructor first flew my plane, he suggested that we  

set the leading edge of the horizontal stab lower, which we did. Then  

we sealed the elevator gap with clear tape which further helped. Then  

he suggested adding a tab to the (electric) elevator trim tab. After  

all these mods the plane can be landed. I eventually reduced the size  

of the added trim tab so that the trim wasn't so sensitive to cruise  

settings.

With the Jabiru's idle speed set to about 900 or less, the only  

floating I get is when I decide to stretch my landing so I don't have  

to taxi so far. Under those circumstances, I just twist in some power  

(vernier throttle) and keep it off the runway until I get to where I  

want to set it down. I'm not saying I can do this in those 29 mph  

gusts though.



Lynn

Kitfox IV Speedster...Jabiru 2200

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

davef(at)cfisher.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:10 am Post subject: Flap usage

Lynn,  glad to see you got some benefit from your flapperons.



I have found flaps a real attribute to my Kitfox IV.

I will get off quicker with flaps - water, land or snow in any gear 

configuration.

I will land slower as well with up to 20 degrees - over that , I have never 

found any gain.  Most Kitfoxes  will be able to fly final at 45 to  50 mph - 

over that and you just extend your landing.



To be able to fly  your plane better you need to know the total envelope of 

your aircraft.   To say that flaps are not needed or useless tells me that 

you have not explored your total flight envelope.



Now on props - are you sure you are getting thrust from your prop? I find 

mine creates more drag and I can land shorter with engine at idle that 

deadstick .



Only proof that I have in what i say is in my videos that  I did 

http://www.cfisher.com

Lynn, did you ever find out how to watch videos  yet ?    Can you watch from 

DVD?

If so PM me your address and i Will make you a DVD.

Dave





---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:13 am Post subject: Flap usage

My flaps will only go to 20°...no further. The console that I have  

restricts further travel.



I've got the Sensenich wooden prop, fixed pitch, and when I give it  

throttle, it pulls the plane...I'm not sure that I understand your  

question about "getting thrust from your prop?"



Watching videos is "slow and painful"....takes forever to download.  

DVD's work best...will send address via private email, Dave...thanks.



Lynn

do not archive



On Apr 6, 2007, at 8:05 AM, <davef(at)cfisher.com> wrote:



[quote] 



 Lynn,  glad to see you got some benefit from your flapperons.



 I have found flaps a real attribute to my Kitfox IV.

 I will get off quicker with flaps - water, land or snow in any gear  

 configuration.

 I will land slower as well with up to 20 degrees - over that , I  

 have never found any gain.  Most Kitfoxes  will be able to fly  

 final at 45 to  50 mph - over that and you just extend your landing.



 To be able to fly  your plane better you need to know the total  

 envelope of your aircraft.   To say that flaps are not needed or  

 useless tells me that you have not explored your total flight  

 envelope.



 Now on props - are you sure you are getting thrust from your prop?  

 I find mine creates more drag and I can land shorter with engine at  

 idle that deadstick .



 Only proof that I have in what i say is in my videos that  I did  

 http://www.cfisher.com

 Lynn, did you ever find out how to watch videos  yet ?    Can you  

 watch from DVD?

 If so PM me your address and i Will make you a DVD.

 Dave





 ---

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

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