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Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:14 pm Post subject: Re: User Fees and Patriotism

 	  jpl(at)showpage.org wrote: 	
		  

-Those who benefit from the ATC system should pay for it

-No one should have to pay for more than their fair share

-But we don't want the payment system to discourage safe flying  

practices 	




And let's remember that the largest user of ATC is the airlines. The reason that Class Bs exist, is the airlines.



I'm not about to jump on the "I love corporations" bandwagon, but I don't recommend stoning their offices either.



However, after 9/11, American taxpayers gave a huge bailout to airlines, many of whom still gave their execs huge bonuses, and many of which were bleeding red ink BEFORE 9/11. In Minnesota, we gave a HUGE public subsidy to keep NOrthwest Airlines flying in the early 90s. We the taxpayers, subsidized an Airbus maintenance base for them that now sits empty in Duluth, all the mechanics jobs have disappeared when they refused to accept even more concessions, and Northwest outsourced their jobs, including overseas. 



So when I hear and read all the nonsense from THESE corporations about how private pilots aren't paying their fair share, well, they should at least have the common sense to shut their pieholes, because there are few industries better at asking American taxpayers for something for nothing than this nation's airlines.



We just need to remind them that the skies of America belong to Americans.  Not to  I'mBillingYouOnBehalfOfOurAirlinesForUsingYourSkies.com.

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

rv7(at)b4.ca
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:34 pm Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

On 16:02 2007-04-18 Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   >  

 >  year over year.  Compare/contrast that to the developments in

 >  engine technology in motorcycles, boats, cars, etc.  We're still

 >  running the gas-guzzlers.

 Which in-production gasoline-powered cars have a brake specific fuel

 consumption lower than a fuel-injected Lycoming running lean of

 peak?  With references please.

I probably should have said "We're still running the gas-guzzlers, as far

as the general public is concerned."  There are Hybrid SUV's now that get

gas mileage as good as a large, non-hybrid sedan, but people still lump all

SUV's into one category, hybrid or not.

But are you saying that Lycomings don't need improvement? Can't be

improved?  Shouldn't be improved?  Just because they're already pretty

good, that's no reason to just sit by and tell everyone else to pull up

their socks.  "The problem isn't aircraft engines, it's everyone else!" 

Imagine how far that would go in a public debate.

Public perception of private aircraft owners is that we're a bunch of rich

playboys, doing whatever we want.  Much like the SUV market.  Sticking our

head in the sand won't make the outcry about frivolous pollution go away.

-Rob

Vanremog(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:57 pm Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

In a message dated 4/18/2007 11:56:58 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  jfogarty(at)tds.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I    believe the hard part for people to understand is how much commerce comes    

to each local airport and cities across the USA as we fly around.     This is 

something each of us should be conveying at local airport    events.  We can do 

this by telling people and or through our local    publications.  Just think of 

the money that is spent this week for    all the people traveling to Sun and 

Fun.  That's not just $100    hamburger.  If  someone fly's into Kentucky he or 

she may like    it there and someday come back or for that one landing buy 

goods and    services.  It's all about the money, and we need to tell that to 

our    legislator's and our local business community.

	


 

 ==========================

  

 Maybe this is how the AOPA should spin their AOPA Credit Card service, the  "I AM A PILOT WHO JUST FLEW IN AND LEFT THESE  DOLLARS IN YOUR COMMUNITY" card.  Seriously,  this is  the best way to ear-mark pilot dollars.  Don't use cash, always charge  it on the PILOT CARD.

  

  

  

 GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A, C/S, Flying 842hrs, Silicon Valley,  CA)





See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

khorton01(at)rogers.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:10 am Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

On 18 Apr 2007, at 21:44, Rob Prior wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 On 16:02 2007-04-18 Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> wrote:

>>  

>>  year over year.  Compare/contrast that to the developments in

>>  engine technology in motorcycles, boats, cars, etc.  We're still

>>  running the gas-guzzlers.

>

> Which in-production gasoline-powered cars have a brake specific fuel

> consumption lower than a fuel-injected Lycoming running lean of

> peak?  With references please.

 I probably should have said "We're still running the gas-guzzlers,  

 as far

 as the general public is concerned."  There are Hybrid SUV's now  

 that get

 gas mileage as good as a large, non-hybrid sedan, but people still  

 lump all

 SUV's into one category, hybrid or not.

 But are you saying that Lycomings don't need improvement? Can't be

 improved?  Shouldn't be improved?  Just because they're already pretty

 good, that's no reason to just sit by and tell everyone else to  

 pull up

 their socks.  "The problem isn't aircraft engines, it's everyone  

 else!"

 Imagine how far that would go in a public debate.

 Public perception of private aircraft owners is that we're a bunch  

 of rich

 playboys, doing whatever we want.  Much like the SU

I doubt that it is possible to make much improvement in brake  

specific fuel consumption (i.e. how much fuel flow is required to  

produce a given amount of power) unless we move away from the Otto  

cycle.  All gasoline-powered engines that I am aware of that had  

better fuel consumption numbers than a fuel-injected Lycoming were  

very complicated and heavy.  Very complicated generally means  

expensive and unreliable.  And heavier aircraft have higher induced  

drag, which means you need more power to fly the same speed, which  

increases fuel consumption.

It is certainly possible to make aircraft that burn less fuel than  

our RVs.  You do that by reducing aircraft weight, minimizing drag,  

and accepting lower cruise speeds.  Then you can get the desired  

performance with a much lower power engine, and less power required  

for cruise means lower fuel consumption.  But, anyone who was really  

interested in this wouldn't be building a classic RV.  They might  

build an RV-12, or some of the high speed, non-LSA (too fast),  

European designs that use small engines.  The high fuel costs in  

Europe has already pushed them in this direction.  We in North  

America are 15 or 20 years behind.

Kevin Horton         RV-8 (finishing kit)

Ottawa, Canada

http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8

aerokinetic(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:50 am Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

Somebody else may have said this by now... I confess I've only skimmed the postings lately. But I *must* say:

   

  Anybody who has written to this list about user fees and has not yet written all their elected representatives should be ashamed!

   

  Scott

  N4ZW

 [quote][b]

ronlee(at)pcisys.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:08 am Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

 	  Quote: 	
		   > But are you saying that Lycomings don't need improvement? Can't be

 > improved?  Shouldn't be improved? 


	


I once calculated that I get better MPG with my O-360 RV-6A than I do 

with my 2001 Jeep Cherokee.   Oh my. A SUV driver AND pilot. Waaaa  waaa 

for the global warming chicken littles.   See what covered much of North 

America around 15000 years ago then come complain about global warming.



Ron

Lee



---------------------------------------------

This message was sent using Endymion MailMan.

http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/

jfogarty(at)tds.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:26 am Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

Al Gore said Global Warming is man made but a few years back a team of 

wonderful people made a recovery of a P-38, Glacier Girl, from a shaft depth 

of 268' of ice.  Mr Gore, I hope it warms up! Then we could go get the rest 

of the planes.



Jim

RV9a Builder

---

Terry Watson

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:56 am Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

Or maybe look at it this way:  Anyone who uses the list to cast shame on those who don’t share their values should be ashamed.  

   

Terry  

Do not archive  

         

  

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of SCOTT SPENCER

 Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 6:49 AM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: User Fees and Patriotism  

  

     

Somebody else may have said this by now... I confess I've only skimmed the postings lately. But I *must* say:  

    

   

    

Anybody who has written to this list about user fees and has not yet written all their elected representatives should be ashamed!  

    

   

    

Scott  

    

N4ZW  

   	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
3 	  Quote: 	
		   	
4

        [quote][b]

rv7(at)b4.ca
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:05 am Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

On 7:07 2007-04-19 ronlee(at)pcisys.net wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I once calculated that I get better MPG with my O-360 RV-6A than I do

 with my 2001 Jeep Cherokee.   Oh my.  A SUV driver AND pilot.  Waaaa

 waaa for the global warming chicken littles.  See what covered much

 of North America around 15000 years ago then come complain about

 global warming.


	


Like I said in my first email:



"Public perception of private aircraft owners is that we're a bunch of rich

playboys, doing whatever we want.  Much like the SUV market.  Sticking our

head in the sand won't make the outcry about frivolous pollution go away."



Thanks for proving my point.  Please, continue to stick your head in the

sand  and erect a "somebody else's problem" field around your life. 

Climate change is not a myth.



-Rob

rv9jim(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:13 am Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

Rob,

        Climate change "may" be occurring but not by man.  The sun is

hotter, so, since all out "heat" comes from that source, I would be

inclined to believe that the sun is the source of the possible increase. 

However since it is warmer in some places and cooler in some, it becomes

chicken little's  "the sky is  falling" for those who will not check out

facts from all possible sources.  Ignorance and lazy ness breed hysteria

and politicians love it.   consensus is not "fact".

        Enough politics---  this is a build site!!!!



Jim

do not archive

jpl(at)showpage.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:45 pm Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

Sigh.



Jim -- the facts aren't in dispute by anyone.  Maybe you should check  

*your* sources.  If they all are stamped "big oil", maybe you should  

take them with a grain of salt.  Man-influenced climate change is  

happening.  That's a basic fact.  What isn't known are the  

absolutes.  How big has the change been so far?  What percentage is  

due to man's influence?  Will it continue?  How bad is it going to  

get?  Those are in dispute, but not the basic facts that can all be  

measured and proven.



Besides, we're running out of oil.  Wouldn't you rather see solutions  

now rather than later?  I know I would.



As for the chicken little comment -- I'd rather take care of the  

problem than bury my head in the sand.



-Joe



On Apr 19, 2007, at 2:11 PM, James H Nelson wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Rob,

         Climate change "may" be occurring but not by man.  The sun is

 hotter, so, since all out "heat" comes from that source, I would be

 inclined to believe that the sun is the source of the possible  

 increase.

 However since it is warmer in some places and cooler in some, it  

 becomes

 chicken little's  "the sky is  falling" for those who will not  

 check out

 facts from all possible sources.  Ignorance and lazy ness breed  

 hysteria

 and politicians love it.   consensus is not "fact".

         Enough politics---  this is a build site!!!!



 Jim

 do not archive

Terry Watson

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:17 pm Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

We have been "running out of oil" for my entire lifetime which extends back

to world war 2.  I would have thought that by now intelligent people would

realize that we don't "run out" of natural resources; as they become more

scarce their price goes up. When that happens market forces find more or

find substitutes and adjust the price accordingly. We ran out of

$0.30/gallon gas way back in the sixties but we still have $3.50/gallon gas,

if you buy right away. Too bad about that nickel cup of coffee I used to

hear about when I was little.



My biggest concern about climate change is not the effect it will have on

the physical environment but its affect on the political environment. It is

the best excuse those who don't believe in our freedom have had to further

limit our options since the dire warnings about the coming ice age in the

early 1970's. 



I will agree that the climate is changing. Everything changes. Which way, by

how much, and by what cause and over what period of time is far too steeped

in political agenda for the loudest answers to be taken seriously. We are in

danger of running ourselves off a cliff like a bunch of Lemmings by adopting

a politically correct but wrong solution to a problem that may turn out to

be just part of the long term climate fluctuations caused by factors totally

beyond our control.



Scientific reports are now "negotiated" with political interests to arrive

at so-called truth. I can hear the waves crashing on the rocks below.



But, I guess we can "feel good about ourselves" as we run off the cliff.



Terry

 




<snip>



Besides, we're running out of oil.  Wouldn't you rather see solutions  

now rather than later?  I know I would.



As for the chicken little comment -- I'd rather take care of the  

problem than bury my head in the sand.



-Joe

jhstarn(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:45 pm Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

Many years ago there was a steel plant, Kaiser Steel, located in Fontana Calif. 

"That's a basic fact.  What isn't known are the  

absolutes.  How big has the change been so far?  What percentage is due to man's influence?".

Well ALL those in the know spouted the same montra listed above. 

IF we could just get rid of Kaiser Steel that was "producing 85% of the smog in the LA basin" (reportedly a known, for sure FACT) Well they got rid of Kaiser Steel, Did that help ? Sure. Was it the total answer that the "Experts" all agreed would solve the problem. NO.  Why not ???  Because the: "That's a basic fact.  What isn't known are the absolutes.  How big has the change been so far?  What percentage is due to man's influence?" AND they still don't KNOW.  KABONG  Do Not Archive

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Joseph Larson <jpl(at)showpage.org>

Date: 2007/04/19 Thu PM 03:43:54 CDT

To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: User Fees and Patriotism

 	  Quote: 	

Sigh.

Jim -- the facts aren't in dispute by anyone.  Maybe you should check  

*your* sources.  If they all are stamped "big oil", maybe you should  

take them with a grain of salt.  Man-influenced climate change is  

happening.  That's a basic fact.  What isn't known are the  

absolutes.  How big has the change been so far?  What percentage is  

due to man's influence?  Will it continue?  How bad is it going to  

get?  That's a basic fact.  What isn't known are the  

absolutes.  How big has the change been so far?  What percentage is  

due to man's influence?>

Besides, we're running out of oil.  Wouldn't you rather see solutions  

now rather than later?  I know I would.

As for the chicken little comment -- I'd rather take care of the  

problem than bury my head in the sand.

-Joe

On Apr 19, 2007, at 2:11 PM, James H Nelson wrote:

> 

>

> Rob,

>         Climate change "may" be occurring but not by man.  The sun is

> hotter, so, since all out "heat" comes from that source, I would be

> inclined to believe that the sun is the source of the possible  

> increase.

> However since it is warmer in some places and cooler in some, it  

> becomes

> chicken little's  "the sky is  falling" for those who will not  

> check out

> facts from all possible sources.  Ignorance and lazy ness breed  

> hysteria

> and politicians love it.   consensus is not "fact".

>         Enough politics---  this is a build site!!!!

>

> Jim

> do not archive

cfi1513840

Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 14

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:53 pm Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

Speaking of the privatized FSS, I had an interesting experience yesterday

I'd like to share. A fellow instructor at Tipton airport (KFME - smack dab

in the middle of the DC ADIZ) was attempting to file an ADIZ flight plan

with Leesburg FSS. When he emphasized to the briefer that it was an "ADIZ"

flight plan, the briefer seemed a little hesitant. My instructor friend

stated "you know what an ADIZ flight plan is, right", to which the briefer

responded, "No, I'm new here". I actually witnessed this as I was sitting

next to him when he made the call. This is an area where you get intercepted

by F-16's if you don't follow procedures to the letter, and here's a guy at

Leesburg that doesn't have a clue about the area he's working. Pretty scary

stuff.



Ken Howell

Glenwood, Maryland



--

_________________
Ken Howell
Glenwood Maryland
RV-7 Wings

jpl(at)showpage.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:04 pm Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

Right.  We don't know everything.  So let's just do nothing?  Or  

let's follow the lead of some people and deny the problems exist?

Sorry, that's not my style.

We KNOW we're on the last half of the oil, give or take a couple of  

billion barrels.  We know how fast it's currently being used, and we  

know what the rate of growth is.  Take those numbers, apply the level  

of math I learned in grade school, and it's not hard to figure out  

what will end up happening.

What do you think will happen as oil becomes increasingly scarce?  Do  

you really believe it's only going to take more money to buy it?  I  

don't.  It's going to take more wars.  Is that what you want?

It's not what I want.  What I want is to get off the oil-based  

economy.  Then we could tell everyone in the middle east to go ahead,  

kill yourselves, we don't care, because we don't need anything you have.

I'm trying to do my part.  I need a new car. My current one is 12  

years old and is to the point where I need to put about $3000 into it  

to keep it running for another year.  Instead, I about 35 minutes, I  

get to pick up my new Prius.

Everyone makes their choices.  I choose to reduce my use of oil so  

that there will be more oil available for other uses and to give us  

more time to stop using it entirely.  By myself, I can't do all that  

much, but I do what I can.

For all practical purposes, we'll be out of oil in 40 years.  I'm 44  

years old and expect to still be alive.  But between now and then,  

demand for a scarce resource will make geopolitics increasingly  

unstable.

I don't think it makes sense to go down that path.

-Joe

On Apr 19, 2007, at 5:44 PM, <jhstarn(at)verizon.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Many years ago there was a steel plant, Kaiser Steel, located in  

 Fontana Calif.

 "That's a basic fact.  What isn't known are the

 absolutes.  How big has the change been so far?  What percentage is  

 due to man's influence?".

 Well ALL those in the know spouted the same montra listed above.

 IF we could just get rid of Kaiser Steel that was "producing 85% of  

 the smog in the LA basin" (reportedly a known, for sure FACT) Well  

 they got rid of Kaiser Steel, Did that help ? Sure. Was it the  

 total answer that the "Experts" all agreed would solve the problem.  

 NO.  Why not ???  Because the: "That's a basic fact.  What isn't  

 known are the absolutes.  How big has the change been so far?  What  

 percentage is due to man's influence?" AND they still don't KNOW.   

 KABONG  Do Not Archive

> From: Joseph Larson <jpl(at)showpage.org>

> Date: 2007/04/19 Thu PM 03:43:54 CDT

> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

> Subject: Re: User Fees and Patriotism

> 

>

> Sigh.

>

> Jim -- the facts aren't in dispute by anyone.  Maybe you should check

> *your* sources.  If they all are stamped "big oil", maybe you should

> take them with a grain of salt.  Man-influenced climate change is

> happening.  That's a basic fact.  What isn't known are the

> absolutes.  How big has the change been so far?  What percentage is

> due to man's influence?  Will it continue?  How bad is it going to

> get?  That's a basic fact.  What isn't known are the

> absolutes.  How big has the change been so far?  What percentage is

> due to man's influence?>

> Besides, we're running out of oil.  Wouldn't you rather see solutions

> now rather than later?  I know I would.

>

> As for the chicken little comment -- I'd rather take care of the

> problem than bury my head in the sand.

>

> -Joe

>

> On Apr 19, 2007, at 2:11 PM, James H Nelson wrote:

>

>> 

>>

>> Rob,

>>         Climate change "may" be occurring but not by man.  The  

>> sun is

>> hotter, so, since all out "heat" comes from that source, I would be

>> inclined to believe that the sun is the source of the possible

>> increase.

>> However since it is warmer in some places and cooler in some, it

>> becomes

>> chicken little's  "the sky is  falling" for those who will not

>> check out

>> facts from all possible sources.  Ignorance and lazy ness breed

>> hysteria

>> and politicians love it.   consensus is not "fact".

>>         Enough politics---  this is a build site!!!!

>>

>> Jim

>>

>>

>> do not archive

tcervin(at)valkyrie.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:51 pm Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

Excellent James.....Mars has been warming for about 10 years now due to the 

increased solar activity that you mentioned. I doubt our two little rovers 

are to blame.

            Now what is the best primer to use??? Just kidding.

                                                                             

             Do Not Archive     Tom in Ohio



---

tcervin(at)valkyrie.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:04 pm Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

Where are all the experts who predicted Global Cooling in the late 70's???? 

They wanted NASA to consider a ring of mirrors in space to heat the earth 

since we were apt to be buried under 100 foot of ice as far south as 

northern Alabama by 2040.

   Are we warming? Absolutely and so is Mars which also a fact.

                                                                             

               Do not Archive  Tom in Ohio  PS..... I like PPG K-36 Primer.



---

jsflyrv(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:09 pm Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

Joseph Larson wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Right.  We don't know everything.  So let's just do nothing?  Or  

 let's follow the lead of some people and deny the problems exist?



 Sorry, that's not my style.



We were running out of oil in the early 70's remember, probably not if 
	


you are 44 years old now. climates are changing BUT NOT BY MAN.

All of you gore supporters that buy the carbon footprint exchange 

program or believe that you can use more  by buying the right to use more

such as gore and edwards!!!!!! what a joke.



Sorry I am contributing to this thread that would be better discussed in 

other forums but it pisses me off when people are welling to

let the government regulate our lives to the point of telling us which 

light bulbs we must use etc.



do not archive

tcervin(at)valkyrie.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:14 pm Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

Another FACT the Prius has a bigger negative impact on the environment than 

an SUV over its lifetime. The energy used to manufacture the highly toxic 

batteries and the eventual disposal of the same is not offset by the cleaner 

fuel burn.

       Do some research and please don't let facts get in the way of 

emotional tirades.

                                                                             

Do not Archive   Oh...and in your case use water based primer and you'll 

feel better in the morning. 

Tom in Ohio



---

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:25 pm Post subject: User Fees and Patriotism

Another fact of using an electric car, is what natural resource is used

to create the electricity to charge the "environmentally" friendly

batteries? Trading one natural resource for another is just following

the marketing hype and buying a car that is way overpriced for what you

get because it is "green"

Dan

N289DT



--

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