Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

GPS failure
Goto page Previous 1, 2

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:53 am Post subject: GPS failure

They were able to navigate beyond our| imigination, in conditions that would 

seem impossible. >>



Hi,

Early fliers were all taught to navigate like that.



a local lady, the Honourable Mrs Victor Bruce, was an early flier.   She had 

a rich and indulgent husband and was into anything that went fast. 

Racehorses, cars,motorbikes. She bought a DH Moth on a whim from a shop in 

London which happened to have one in the window (can you believe it?) and 

then bullied Tommy Sopwith in to teaching her to fly.

The first time she flew out of sight of the airfield she learned at she went 

off on a tour of Europe. Shortly after that she flew round the world. All in 

this litlle Moth.

I asked her how she corrected for drift and she told me that she had some 

lines painted on the tail plane at various degrees and she just looked 

behind her, lined up the marks with a tree or other prominent object and 

then kicked the rudder in to compensate.  She had many adventures, engine 

failures etc., but as most of the world was pink on the map in those days 

there always seemd to be an army garrison closeby wherever she went down. 

There was one story of all the natives in the area being called in to stamp 

the ground flat so that she could take off..

I believe that she was an ATA pilot during the war. In case you don`t know 

the ATA, mostly women, flew replacement aircraft from the factories to the 

squadrons during the war. Any weather,mainly non radio, unescorted and 

unarmed. They flew all types from Spits and Hurri`s to Mosquitos and 

Lancasters . A couple of weeks ago I flew into the field which was the ATA 

HQ during the war. Apart from the graves of some girls who bought it in a 

Mosquito there was also a pic of a girl who was checked out in every type 

the RAF was flying at the time. Unsung heroines.



Cheers



Pat.

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:01 am Post subject: GPS failure

What if it knocks out a couple of gps

satellites?  How many gps satellites have to be destroyed to bring down the

system? >>



Jack,

If the balloon goes up the sats will be the first to go. They are sitting 

ducks and everyone knows exactly where they are. They cannot be defended and 

you could put one out of action with half a brick or a sharp stick.

Imagine that plus the EMP from an atomic explosion.  World comms going out. 

Radio, phones,e-mails, navigation systems. It would be like going back to a 

horse drawn era.

Keep a slipstick and a pencil handy.



cheers



Pat

kfackler(at)ameritech.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:57 am Post subject: GPS failure

Dear Ed et al:



I have experienced two GPS outtages in the last couple of years, both in the

same area near Peck MI. At a recent EAA chapter meeting, a spokesman from

FSS advised us to 'always' ask the briefer for any RAIM alerts, which are

areas and times when outtages are occurring or expected.



-Ken Fackler

Kolb Mark II / N722KM

Rochester MI



---

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:35 am Post subject: GPS failure

Scott,

   I have already upgraded about a year ago.  That situation happened about 

3 years ago.  My now new favorite toy is my Garmin 296.  I really like, and 

I am sure even the ability to get signals is significanyly improved.  Where 

I could only get 3-4 good satellites with the 95XL, I receive 5-7 strong 

signals with the much improved 296.



Do not archive                                                    Mike in SW 

Utah





From:  "icrashrc" <icrashrc(at)aol.com>

Reply-To:  kolb-list(at)matronics.com

To:  kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject:  Re: GPS failure

Date:  Mon, 30 Apr 2007 00:22:54 -0700

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Mike, it might betime for an upgrade!

I've seen my Garmin iQue 3600 keep a steady lock (at) over 700 mph ground 

speed. I doubt turbulence alone would make it lose track of where it was.



mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co wrote:

 > Hi All,

 >

 >    On my previous oration about the vitues of VOR's and GPS's, I 

mentioned I

 > had a GPS failure that "skeered" me a little.

 >    To clarify things, it wasn't an electrical problem or anything like 

that,

 > that caused the outage.

 > It was tubulence!!  A GPS's antenna cannot "hone" in on the required

 > satelites if it is being shaken all over the place.

 >    While I was flying over the N California/Oregon moutains I came 

across

 > some significant turbulence, but coverage was restored when the air 

settled

 > down.  I was on a long x/country flight and was at 8500' msl.   I just 

kept

 > pointing at a snow capped peak, that was off in the distance (150 miles

 > away), that I was pointing at before I lost coverage.   After a few 

minutes,

 > things went back to normal.

 >                                                 Mike Welch

 >

 > _________________________________________________________________

 > Don?t quit your job ? Take Classes Online and Earn your Degree in 1 

year.

 > Start Today!

 > 

http://www.classesusa.com/clickcount.cfm?id=866146&goto=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.classesusa.com%2Ffeaturedschools%2Fonlinedegreesmp%2Fform-dyn1.html%3Fsplovr%3D866144

--------

Scott



www.ill-EagleAviation.com



do not archive





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=109946#109946






	


_________________________________________________________________

Interest Rates NEAR 39yr LOWS!  $430,000 Mortgage for $1,299/mo - Calculate 

new payment

MKIIIX040

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 123
Location: Millinocket, Maine

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:55 am Post subject: GPS failure

Thats ok John , most of us suffer from dead  reckoning.

 Yesterday I couldn't recon where I put  my 2"  brush?

  

 Vic

 do not archive

  

  

   [quote][b]

_________________
MKIIIX040
912UL

Russ Kinne

Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 182

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:59 am Post subject: GPS failure

IME roofs don't cause problems; wood, tarpaper, sheet metal 

(sometimes), even fibreglass on boats. I think the water content is  

the problem -- e.g, leaves, snow.

Russ K



On Apr 29, 2007, at 11:07 PM, Charlie England wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>



 John Hauck wrote:

> 

>  .

> | Incidentally, I knew that GPS's won't "see" through heavy green

> | leaves -- but I found out to my dismay that they won't penetrate

> | heavy snow either.

> | Russ Kinne

> Russ:

> Depends on the system.  Some will and some won't.  We had a cheap  

> Etrex localize inside the kitchen.  Outside, my 196 will barely  

> obtain coverage because of the trees.

> john h

> mkIII

 And my neighbor's GRT EFIS will lock on inside his build-shop with  

 a shingle roof & only a couple of very small windows.



 Charlie

 (I was surprised, too.)

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 8:12 am Post subject: Re: GPS failure

 	  mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co wrote: 	
		  Hi All,



To clarify things, it wasn't an electrical problem or anything like that, 

that caused the outage.

It was tubulence!!  A GPS's antenna cannot "hone" in on the required 

satelites if it is being shaken all over the place.

                                                Mike Welch



	




You could not be more wrong, GPS works just fine in turbulance.  Not only will GPS work fine in turbulance you would experience in an aircraft, but I have used GPS in turbulance and vibration that would cause structural failure in full sized aircraft.



If your GPS was cutting out in turblance, then you had a loose wire, bad power connection, or something wrong in your system.   You made a very bad assumption with your situation...  There is just no inherent problem with GPS and turbulance. 



As I said before, if you are the type of person that must have a backup to your GPS, get another GPS, its cheaper, works better, and is simpler and more reliable than a VOR setup.



GPS non avialability because sattelites are not in position is so rare, its not even wroth thinking aobut unless you are using it for a very tight IFR approach.  Even if you get less than optinum sattelites, its only for a couple minutes before another comes into view, the worst you get is degraded accuracy ( maybe 100 feet accuracy instead of 10 feet ).  In other words, its NOT AN ISSUE.  



For those of you that are worried about the Chinese shooting down the sattelites, then you might as well worry about the sky falling, and never leave the comfort of your underground cave...   Besides, if it ever gets to that, we all will have much bigger problems about than your GPS not working.  ( A war on that scale would take out the VOR's, and probably your life also ).   



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 365

Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 7:05 pm Post subject: GPS failure

In a message dated 5/3/2007 12:14:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  orcabonita(at)hotmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  As I    said before, if you are the type of person that must have a backup to your    GPS, get another GPS, its cheaper, works better, and is simpler and more    reliable than a VOR setup.



GPS non avialability because sattelites are    not in position is so rare, its not even wroth thinking aobut unless you are    using it for a very tight IFR approach.  	


 

 Jetpilot,

 I could not agree with you less,      a few years  ago I was returning form the  Bahamas's, You know, right into the middle of  the Bermuda Triangle and had bad weather in the way,  GPS went blink, LORAN  C  went blank. I did a 180 and turned on the VOR and it agreed with my  compass and stopwatch. I went with that. Landed at Treasure Cay and had a few  Dark and Stormies. My feeling is, when things go wrong it is nice to have at  least two independent NAV  aids that agree versus two of the same type.  

 When  the power goes off and the flashlight does not work, Us old guys  will still light a match.

  

 worth what you paid for it

  

 Steve B

 do not archive



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 4:06 am Post subject: Re: GPS failure

Steve B,



I agree with you. The total dependence upon one technology is not so smart if a back up system is really important to you. 



More importantly, I liked your greeting to Jet Pilot, "I could not agree with you less". It is very apropos considering Jet Pilot's typical greeting "You could not be more wrong".  Politeness has not gone out of style, has it? Being rude while making a point does not help your case.



Thom in Buffalo

do not archive

Michael Sharp

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 118
Location: Oak Grove, MO (Kansas City)

Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 4:18 am Post subject: GPS failure

Amen Thom, Good point!

   

  Do Not Archive



Thom Riddle <thomriddle(at)adelphia.net> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" 



Steve B,



I agree with you. The total dependence upon one technology is not so smart if a back up system is really important to you. 



More importantly, I liked your greeting to Jet Pilot, "I could not agree with you less". It is very apropos considering Jet Pilot's typical greeting "You could not be more wrong". Politeness has not gone out of style, has it? Being rude while making a point does not help your case.



Thom in Buffalo

do not archive





Read this topic online [quote][b]

_________________
The air up there in the clouds is very pure and fine...And why shouldn't it be?-
--It is the same the angels breathe.
Mark Twain,
Roughing it' 1886

Mike

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 7:36 am Post subject: Re: GPS failure

[quote="Michael Sharp"]



More importantly, I liked your greeting to Jet Pilot, "I could not agree with you less". It is very apropos considering Jet Pilot's typical greeting "You could not be more wrong". Politeness has not gone out of style, has it? Being rude while making a point does not help your case.



Thom in Buffalo

do not archive



Read this topic online  	  Quote: 	
		  [b] 	


As far as I am concerned, posting good and accurate information is more important than anything.  Many new people read this list, and to have a guy post something that is totally wrong is a disservice to everyone.   People should know what they are writing about before posting something as fact to everyone that reads this list.  



I was blunt, but not rude.  I consider your post rude though Thom in Buffalo, I would rather be blunt than a hypocrite.  More importantly Thom, you seem to place more importance on personalities and what you like to hear more than on good and accurate information.  That is a good way to get yourself or someone else hurt in aviation.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 7:38 am Post subject: GPS failure

Thank you Thom.  I wasn't going to reply to his abrasive "know'it'all" 

comment, due to its overwhelming righteous position, but since I wasn't the 

only one who noticed that, I WILL take the time to say thank you for 

pointing it out.



  I did find it a little puzzling how someone who wasn't sitting in the seat 

next to me KNOWS all about my situation.  Or my GPS, for that matter.  (An 

older model Garmin 95XL.  The satellite coverage was always marginal, at 

best, as I stated in my original message.)  Older GPS's only could track 8 

salellites.  If you were lucky, you received 4......3 and 1 weak one.  I 

liked my GPS, but it was a bit "strength" challenged.  And it mattered where 

you suction cupped it to the windshield!

  What??  You mean you are using your experience with a modern GPS to tell 

me how my older GPS WILL act??



   So, I'm flying along, 8500'msl, straight line, N Ca border, headed south. 

    GPS is fine.   I get shaken severely with turbulence...GPS says "poor 

GPS coverage".   Air settles down a bit, coverage comes back.    Then I 

think "I'm back in business!!"    15 minutes later....shake shake 

shake..."poor GPS coverage."

(And NO, it wasn't the connections!!)   End of story.



   And I still think phylisophically it is MUCH better to have two different 

forms of navigations.   In the event "A" goes out on you, you have a good 

shot at using "B".   But everyone is entitled to their own opinion regarding 

their preferred navigation methods.  (stated politely)



                   Have a nice day!



                                                                             

  Mike in SW Utah





 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "Thom Riddle" <thomriddle(at)adelphia.net>

Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: GPS failure

Date: Fri,  4 May 2007 05:07:00 -0700






Steve B,



I agree with you. The total dependence upon one technology is not so smart 

if a back up system is really important to you.



More importantly, I liked your greeting to Jet Pilot, "I could not agree 

with you less". It is very apropos considering Jet Pilot's typical greeting 

"You could not be more wrong".  Politeness has not gone out of style, has 

it? Being rude while making a point does not help your case.



Thom in Buffalo

do not archive





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=110758#110758






	


_________________________________________________________________

Download Messenger. Join the i’m Initiative. Help make a difference today. 

http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_APR07

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 8:09 am Post subject: Re: GPS failure

 	  mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co wrote: 	
		  



It was tubulence!!  A GPS's antenna cannot "hone" in on the required 

satelites if it is being shaken all over the place.



                                                Mike Welch



	




Mike,



You very clearly and falsely said that a GPS antenna cannot work in turbulance.   You at no time in your post said that it was due to your "old" or "substandard" installation.



I think you probably understand 5th grade english.   Be a man and admit that you posted bad and false information instead of pouting like a baby about how I called you on it.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 8:21 am Post subject: GPS failure

OK, Folks:



If you are going to get into a pissing contest about GPS, take it bc. 

I do not want to hear about it, and I might guess most of the other 

members of the Kolb List do not want to have to wade through it 

either.



Thanks,



john h

mkIII



DO NOT ARCHIVE

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 8:37 am Post subject: GPS failure

Well said, John.  I agree.           Mike in SW Utah

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>

Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

To: <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Re: GPS failure

Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 11:20:59 -0500

  OK, Folks:

If you are going to get into a pissing contest about GPS, take it bc.

I do not want to hear about it, and I might guess most of the other

members of the Kolb List do not want to have to wade through it

either.

Thanks,

john h

mkIII

DO NOT ARCHIVE

_________________________________________________________________

Watch free concerts with Pink, Rod Stewart, Oasis and more.  Visit MSN In 

Concert today. http://music.msn.com/presents?icid=ncmsnpresentstagline

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 365

Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 12:45 pm Post subject: GPS failure

sorry Jetpilot,

 I did not mean to start a negative stream, I just did not agree with you. I  should have been  a little more diplomatic in my intro.

  

 Steve Boetto

 do not archive



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

DAquaNut(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 3:08 pm Post subject: GPS failure

In a message dated 5/4/2007 7:08:10 AM Central Standard Time, thomriddle(at)adelphia.net writes: 

 

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  More importantly, I liked your greeting to Jet Pilot, "I could not agree with you less". It is very apropos considering Jet Pilot's typical greeting "You could not be more wrong".  Politeness has not gone out of style, has it? Being rude while making a point does not help your case. 

 

Thom in Buffalo 	
 

 

                   Thanks Thom, I couldn't have said it more right my self !  

 

                 Ed  in Houston

**************************************

 See what's free at http://www.aol.com.  [quote][b]

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 9:22 pm Post subject: Re: GPS failure

[quote="Steve Boetto"]sorry Jetpilot,

 I did not mean to start a negative stream, I just did not agree with you. I  should have been  a little more diplomatic in my intro.

  

 Steve Boetto

 do not archive



See what's free at AOL.com. 

   	  Quote: 	
		  [b] 	




Thanks Steve,



Sometimes its just to easy to type things on a computer screen without thinking about the people behind the post.  I have been known to do that from time to time    



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 365

Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 3:19 am Post subject: GPS failure

Yup,

  

 Real people behind those funny little squibles on the glowing screen,

  

 BTW, How is your MKIIIx coming? Don't forget about the Homecoming in Sept.  It would be nice to see a pretty Yellow one there.

  

 Steve

 Firefly007

 do not archive



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2
Page 2 of 2

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum