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stutzman(at)stutzman.com Guest
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Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 11:20 am Post subject: Selling an experimental a/c |
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On Tue, 1 May 2007, ashontz wrote:
Quote: | p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att wrote:
> Personally, I liked the idea in one of Robert Heinlein's books where
> he talks about "the day we hung all the lawyers."
This is a wonderful idea. Damn parasites.
|
I'm not a lawyer, and I don't mean to be defending them, but...
If lawyers didn't have clients they wouldn't be sueing. Lawyers are the
symptoms of a problem, not the problem itself.
In other words, we are very often our own worse enemeys.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR (soon to be Boise, ID)
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Mitch Hodges
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 45 Location: Powder Springs, GA
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Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: Selling an experimental a/c |
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This is always an interesting subject when it comes up, but I have to wonder how much of a "real" issue it is. While I agree there is always a risk, have there been any large settlements based on the sale of an experimental?
There sure to seem to be plenty of experimentals that change hands on a regular basis, but I can't recall reading any real litigation around it.
I would think some of these would have shown up in one of the flying mags at least as an editorial at some point. Have I just missed them?
Of course, I definitely suffer from that "not a big enough target" syndrome so I probably wouldn't worry if I needed to sell.
Mitch Hodges
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N601MH (Zenith 601HDS)
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Gig Giacona
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 1416 Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA
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Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: Selling an experimental a/c |
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It won't hurt but a person can't sign away the rights of another (in this case heirs). Also, it might just get thrown right out of court if the buyer or the heirs can show that it was signed with a "wink".
If you want to ground the aircraft just shred the AW certificate. It will protect you just as much as taking off the wings and beating them with a hammer with the added benefit that it doesn't mess up the paint job.
One thing to remember in all this, I'm not a lawyer though there are several I'd like to shoot.
baileys(at)ktis.net wrote: | How about having the buyer sign a contract to the affect that they understand the it is not an aircraft, but is intended as an educational aeronautical device for display purposes only, never intended for flight. Any attempts to fly the device will almost certainly fail. That they will further agree to never actually fly the device and if they do violate the terms of the agreement that you will be held blameless by them or their heirs or any insuing parties that may eventually come into possesion of said educational device?? <big>
Bob B.
[b] |
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agibeaut
Joined: 21 Mar 2007 Posts: 64
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Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 1:18 pm Post subject: Selling an experimental a/c |
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Reading this makes me wonder how many pilots and
aircraft owners there are presently in Congress. I
know how many Lawyers there are. Too many. Maybe we as
a group should consider doing something about this in
the next election, at least to the best of our
ability. Hmmmmm.
--- Gig Giacona <wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net> wrote:
Quote: |
<wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net>
It won't hurt but a person can't sign away the
rights of another (in this case heirs). Also, it
might just get thrown right out of court if the
buyer or the heirs can show that it was signed with
a "wink".
If you want to ground the aircraft just shred the AW
certificate. It will protect you just as much as
taking off the wings and beating them with a hammer
with the added benefit that it doesn't mess up the
paint job.
One thing to remember in all this, I'm not a lawyer
though there are several I'd like to shoot.
baileys(at)ktis.net wrote:
> How about having the buyer sign a contract to the
affect that they understand the it is not an
aircraft, but is intended as an educational
aeronautical device for display purposes only,
never intended for flight. Any attempts to fly the
device will almost certainly fail. That they will
further agree to never actually fly the device and
if they do violate the terms of the agreement that
you will be held blameless by them or their heirs
or any insuing parties that may eventually come
into possesion of said educational device??
> Bob B.
> [b]
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=110282#110282
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Gig Giacona
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 1416 Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA
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Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 1:46 pm Post subject: Re: Selling an experimental a/c |
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Unless we all move to the same congressional district we'd have no effect at all. But on the good side there are several pilots in Congress. On the bad side they are so damn stupid that they wrote a law that stopped themselves from flying even in their own aircraft.
agibeaut wrote: | Reading this makes me wonder how many pilots and
aircraft owners there are presently in Congress. I
know how many Lawyers there are. Too many. Maybe we as
a group should consider doing something about this in
the next election, at least to the best of our
ability. Hmmmmm. |
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_________________ W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR |
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bryanmmartin
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 1018
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Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 2:31 pm Post subject: Selling an experimental a/c |
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Lawyers often actively search for potential clients. Some have even
been known to pay hospital workers to refer accidents victims to
them. If the lawyer had any ethics, he would not accept a case that
had no real merit, but greed takes over and they gamble on a case
that they might win and get 40% of the take. Lawyers are not just a
symptom of the problem, they are part of the problem but not the
whole problem. The biggest issue is that the lawyer risks little or
nothing by taking a meritless case to trial but the defendant has to
spend a pile of money to defend himself whether he wins or loses.
On May 1, 2007, at 3:19 PM, Frank Stutzman wrote:
Quote: |
If lawyers didn't have clients they wouldn't be sueing. Lawyers
are the symptoms of a problem, not the problem itself.
In other words, we are very often our own worse enemeys.
|
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
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Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive. |
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amyvega2005(at)earthlink. Guest
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Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 5:03 pm Post subject: Selling an experimental a/c |
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to all,
build the plane, fly the crap out of it, then sell it when you need to, cover your ass with the right documentation, there is even coverage you can buy. thats it, move on.
Juan
--
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bill_dom(at)yahoo.com Guest
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Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 5:06 am Post subject: Selling an experimental a/c |
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I’ve always wondered the same thing. Regular people tend to overestimate the risk of being sued. The vast majority of law suits are corporation against corporation followed by individuals against corporations. It is my understanding that individual against individual are rare unless the defendant happens to be very wealthy.
Unless you are very wealthy the chances of being sued are not as high as people believe, unless the plaintiff is looking for something other than money or assets.
Still, it is a good idea to get a release form signed by the buyer because this could work as a deterrent to any family member who might be thinking of suing, but the best deterrent is for the others to know you are not wealthy enough to bother, if you were, you would’ve been selling a Cessna Citation.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami, Florida
Mitch Hodges <n601mh(at)HODGES.INFO> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mitch Hodges"
This is always an interesting subject when it comes up, but I have to wonder how much of a "real" issue it is. While I agree there is always a risk, have there been any large settlements based on the sale of an experimental?
There sure to seem to be plenty of experimentals that change hands on a regular basis, but I can't recall reading any real litigation around it.
I would think some of these would have shown up in one of the flying mags at least as an editorial at some point. Have I just missed [quote][b]
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dredmoody(at)cox.net Guest
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Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 5:13 am Post subject: Selling an experimental a/c |
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That's an idea worth looking into, particularly if you feel you are an enticing target for the unscrupulous plaintif.
Regarding malpractice insurance, some policies are written to cover the practicioner only for a claim filed during the year that the policy is in force. When the doctor retires (comparable to selling the airplane) he can buy a "tail policy" which picks up any claims that arise from the effective date on...... forever. I wonder if there is a liability policy available for the seller of an EXP AB. Then again, the presence of the policy might be just enough bait to attract scavengers. Who knows?
Dred
Do Not Archive
---- Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net> wrote:
Quote: |
to all,
build the plane, fly the crap out of it, then sell it when you need to, cover your ass with the right documentation, there is even coverage you can buy. thats it, move on.
Juan
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bryanmmartin
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 1018
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Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 6:37 am Post subject: Selling an experimental a/c |
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A generous insurance policy will make you a tempting target for a law
suit. Unless you have lots of assets to protect, an insurance policy
is probably a bad idea.
On May 2, 2007, at 9:13 AM, <dredmoody(at)cox.net> <dredmoody(at)cox.net>
wrote:
Quote: |
That's an idea worth looking into, particularly if you feel you are
an enticing target for the unscrupulous plaintif.
Regarding malpractice insurance, some policies are written to cover
the practicioner only for a claim filed during the year that the
policy is in force. When the doctor retires (comparable to selling
the airplane) he can buy a "tail policy" which picks up any claims
that arise from the effective date on...... forever. I wonder if
there is a liability policy available for the seller of an EXP AB.
Then again, the presence of the policy might be just enough bait to
attract scavengers. Who knows?
|
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
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_________________ --
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive. |
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Michael Valentine
Joined: 09 Jan 2006 Posts: 108
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Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 6:58 am Post subject: Selling an experimental a/c |
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Do you carry liability insurance on your plane?
As my post moments ago shows, I disagree that a healthy insurance poilcy is bad. One major benefit of a proper insurance policy that covers the situation is that they pay the defense costs. Plus, any assets you do have are going to feel like plenty if someone sues you and wants to take them away.
do not archive
On 5/2/07, Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net (bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net)> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net (bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net)>
A generous insurance policy will make you a tempting target for a law
suit. Unless you have lots of assets to protect, an insurance policy
is probably a bad idea.
On May 2, 2007, at 9:13 AM, <dredmoody(at)cox.net (dredmoody(at)cox.net)> <dredmoody(at)cox.net (dredmoody(at)cox.net)>
wrote:
[b]
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norton(at)optonline.net Guest
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Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 7:22 am Post subject: selling an experimental a/c |
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Beating a dead horse to death...
Sometimes its not the injured party that initiates the law suit,
sometimes its the insurance company that has to pay out benefits. In
New Jersey (one of the most litigious states) my best friend's son broke
his leg on the neighbor's swing set. This was 12 years ago and was
simply a children's accident with no blame what-so-ever. The broken leg
healed in about 8 weeks with no complication. The insurance company
which was to pay the hospital benefits sued the neighbor on behalf of
the minor and won a huge settlement of which $35,000 went to the now
adult boy. My best friend was totally opposed to suing his neighbor,
but he actually had no say in the law suit. Now, there may be more
information of which I am not aware, but it seems to me that the
insurance company made out like a bandit. By the way, the law suit
lasted for about 8 years with both neighbors and their kids being
repeatedly dragged into court to testify (not fun).
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norton(at)optonline.net Guest
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Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 7:37 am Post subject: selling an experimental a/c |
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Although there may be no problem to date with lawsuits dealing with the
selling of experimental a/c, all it takes is one successful lawsuit and
then the flood gates are open for lawsuits concerning all aircraft which
had been previously sold. All this means is that no precedent has been
set and we don't know what could happen concerning lawsuits.
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ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006 Posts: 723
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Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 6:26 am Post subject: Re: Selling an experimental a/c |
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stutzman(at)stutzman.com wrote: | On Tue, 1 May 2007, ashontz wrote:
Quote: | p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att wrote:
> Personally, I liked the idea in one of Robert Heinlein's books where
> he talks about "the day we hung all the lawyers."
This is a wonderful idea. Damn parasites.
|
I'm not a lawyer, and I don't mean to be defending them, but...
If lawyers didn't have clients they wouldn't be sueing. Lawyers are the
symptoms of a problem, not the problem itself.
In other words, we are very often our own worse enemeys.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR (soon to be Boise, ID) |
I think it's the other way around. Lawyers, and the presense of lawyers that create a litigous society is where all the lawsuits come from. There's tons of advertizements for "We'll get you the money you 'deserve'".
do not archive
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ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006 Posts: 723
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Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 6:29 am Post subject: Re: Selling an experimental a/c |
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bryanmmartin wrote: | Lawyers often actively search for potential clients. Some have even
been known to pay hospital workers to refer accidents victims to
them. If the lawyer had any ethics, he would not accept a case that
had no real merit, but greed takes over and they gamble on a case
that they might win and get 40% of the take. Lawyers are not just a
symptom of the problem, they are part of the problem but not the
whole problem. The biggest issue is that the lawyer risks little or
nothing by taking a meritless case to trial but the defendant has to
spend a pile of money to defend himself whether he wins or loses.
On May 1, 2007, at 3:19 PM, Frank Stutzman wrote:
Quote: |
If lawyers didn't have clients they wouldn't be sueing. Lawyers
are the symptoms of a problem, not the problem itself.
In other words, we are very often our own worse enemeys.
|
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive. |
We definitely need 'loser pays' laws so that a lawyer and his parasitic client have a baseless case, they're going to be paying out the ass for their stunt.
do not archive.
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ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006 Posts: 723
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Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 6:39 am Post subject: Re: Selling an experimental a/c |
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Then again, the upside is, you just build a plane for personal use, build from plans to minimize cost, then let all your friends know you're hip and intelligent enough to build your own plane whereas they have to function within the system and pay out the ass for a production plane (probably 90% of the cost goes to keep a stable of lawyers at Cessna). Isn't that what homebuilding is all about?
I really enjoy letting 'professionals' know I'm capable of building a plane and have a license. I also like letting them know I have a boat too that I keep seaworthy myself. These 'professionals' took the 'safe' path, the road more taken, and have found that because they're all thumbs, they have to pay excessively on the debt treadmill to have and enjoy the things of leisure that are generally associated with people of means, often to the point that it's still out of their reach. It's a very satisfying scheudenfraude, especially when they want you to be impressed with their BMW. Eff them. "Neat BMW, somebody else make that for you and then charge you 8 times what it actually cost? And then you'll use that to attract a parasitic faux wife? Cool beans!" LOL
do not archive
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rpf(at)wi.rr.com Guest
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Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 6:49 am Post subject: Selling an experimental a/c |
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I agree with you Andy. I had an accident a few years ago, lots of damage to
my truck but I was not hurt. I had four lawyers call me to see if they
could represent me in a claim against the other person's insurance. Scum of
the earth!!
Randy
do not archive
---
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ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006 Posts: 723
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Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 6:57 am Post subject: Re: Selling an experimental a/c |
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rpf(at)wi.rr.com wrote: | I agree with you Andy. I had an accident a few years ago, lots of damage to
my truck but I was not hurt. I had four lawyers call me to see if they
could represent me in a claim against the other person's insurance. Scum of
the earth!!
Randy
do not archive
--- |
Yeah, they are the scum of the earth. I got in an accident about 12 years ago, totally the girls fault, she not only didn't have insurance, but also an expired license. Here I find out she's making a claim on miy insurance. Probably a lawyer trying to push that one. I had to notify my insurance company about that and they nipped that sh!t in the bud.
Be interesting to see how the troll trolled for info about your accident. Parasites. Yeah, ok, they're going to fight for your rights and compensation. Your compensation translates to 40% of the claim. You'd have to hire another lawyer to claim the 60% the lawyer took as well as the legal costs involved with that. That's a suit I'd love to see. Once the suit is over, get another lawyer 'suit' to go after the first 'suit' about the suit, to get back the money he stole from you that was allegedly you're compensation. If someone could get a precedent case set like that you'd probably see a lot less 'We'll get you the money you deserve' ads.
I'd love to see an economic collapse and see these totally useless 'professionals' have to lower themselves to anal sex workers just to feed themselves a bowl of rice a day. God knows they can't do anything else. These are people that hire someone to paint a livingroom or replace a belt in their car engine, generally claiming they don't have the time or can't be bothered. Actually, it's because they can't do anything except bend people over without lubrication. That's their specialty, and that's it.
do not archive
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agibeaut
Joined: 21 Mar 2007 Posts: 64
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Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 7:27 am Post subject: Selling an experimental a/c |
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Andy, you are just too funny today! I laughed right
out loud when read this. I think you are exactly right
about the pride of building and maintaining complex
equipment. That is what "pegs my fun meter". Pardon my
ignorance but what the heck is scheudenfraude?
Do not archive.
--- ashontz <ashontz(at)nbme.org> wrote:
Quote: |
<ashontz(at)nbme.org>
Then again, the upside is, you just build a plane
for personal use, build from plans to minimize cost,
then let all your friends know you're kip and
intelligent enough to build your own plane whereas
they have to function within the system and pay out
the ass for a production plane (probably 90% of the
cost goes to keep a stable of lawyers at Cessna).
Isn't that what homebuilding is all about?
I really enjoy letting 'professionals' know I'm
capable of building a plane and have a license. I
also like letting them know I have a boat too that I
keep seaworthy myself. These 'professionals' took
the 'safe' path, the road more taken, and have found
that because they're all thumbs, they have to pay
excessively to have and enjoy the things of leisure
that are generally associated with people of means,
often to the point that it's still out of their
reach. It's a very satisfyng scheudenfraude,
especially when they want you to be impressed with
their BMW. Eff them. "Neat BMW, somebody else make
that for you and then charge you 8 times what it
actually cost? Cool beans!" LOL
do not archive
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=111339#111339
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Get your own web address.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL
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ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006 Posts: 723
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Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 10:25 am Post subject: Re: Selling an experimental a/c |
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agibeaut wrote: | Andy, you are just too funny today! I laughed right
out loud when read this. I think you are exactly right
about the pride of building and maintaining complex
equipment. That is what "pegs my fun meter". Pardon my
ignorance but what the heck is scheudenfraude?
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http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=Schadenfreude
It's an existential sitcom trombone sound-effect "wah waaaahhhhh". Like when Ernie would pull a fast one on Bert and Bert would be left cleaning up all the toys because Ernie negotiated to clean up all the red toys with wheels and ladders and then Ernie would put away the firetruck and leave Bert with a sh!thouse to take care of ... wah waaahhh.
do not archive
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