Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

601 Crash
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

davgray(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 3:29 am Post subject: 601 Crash

That also applies to every part of a person's life. 

 This issue is fundamentally what is wrong with our form of  government.

  

   I suggest that we look in to an Opt Out Law that can be applied  to product liability, Soc Security, Union Dues, and every part of government and  other forms of herdisms.  Strict Constituionally Enumerated functions  of government only.

 That way the people that are individuals can live their lives as they see  fit and the liberal, (herd instinct, sky is falling, save me) crowd would  be able to live in their communes.  Which side you are on is probably  determined before birth but it will later dictate your politics and your entire  life.

  

 Gary Ray  (that is all I have to say about that)

 [quote]   ---

klr12(at)psu.edu
Guest

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 4:20 am Post subject: 601 Crash

Yea, That's all well and good but as long as we keep electing the same 

type of sheep herders, nothing is going to change. In the end, we 

Americans get just exactly what we voted for.

                                                                                                                   

Kevin Rupert

                                                                                                                   

Lewistown, PA

agibeaut

Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 64

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 5:05 am Post subject: 601 Crash

Jeff, I'm sure you mean well, but do yourself a favor.

Save this Email someplace safe, until the day that you

are one of those despicably, incompetent,

bumble-headed, "Seniors" (they are all the same you

know) and then see if you feel the same way about this

topic. 



On second thought, why don't you re-read it right now

and see if you detect a little hint of profiling,

discrimination, arrogance, and self-appointed

judgementalism. My experience has taught me that when

I want to express my opinion, I should do so in

writing. Then I can always re-read it before I hit the

"Send" button. Keeps me from saying stupid stuff to

the world. You might benefit from this technique also.



Please do not archive.

--- Afterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I agree 100% there used to be checks and balances in

 place to help save  

 people from themselves in aviation like taking away

 ones medical if they  

 shouldn't fly. But now we have a lot of our seniors

 that simply shouldn't  be flying 

 that are jumping up and down because of the new

 Sport pilot  class. I am at 

 odds right now with a similar situation with a plane

 I helped  build and now I am 

 not sure if the person should be flying it. When

 they take  the plane out for 

 a taxi test for the first time and try and lift off

 in a plane  they are 

 unfamiliar with it scares the hell out of me. Now I

 am afraid for him  but I can't 

 stop him so I have to just watch and pry I guess. I

 just think this  is going 

 to be happening more and more. I know it's hard to

 admit it but some  people 

 are just not fit to fly but will do it anyway. And

 this has nothing to do  

 with the current crash it is simply a blanket

 statement.

 I also am starting to wonder if this new class was a

 good idea at  all.

 Jeff

  

  

 

 In each case, I  believe the defect is found in the

 person(s) that 

 prepared the plane for  flight or the pilot that

 exceeded his

 Ability in impossible  conditions.  The defect is

 between the ears and so 

 far, I've heard  nothing to indicate anything to the

 contrary.  Excess speed, missing  bolts, bad

 weather, poor preflights or 

 what have you. These all play the  major role in

 keeping

 the wings on. Until "SLA" pilots modify thinking 

 somewhat, they're going 

 to continue to loose wings and things with 

 regularity.

 The defect does not likely have anything to do with

 structural  limits of 

 the thin Zenith wing. These generally exceed 

 commercial

 aircraft load limits.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ************************************** See what's

 free at http://www.aol.com.

 


	


 

Finding fabulous fares is fun.  

Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains.

http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097

steerr(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 5:09 am Post subject: 601 Crash

Wouldn't the EAA be the "builder's advocacy group" you're talking about? 

Wonder if they'd entertain the idea? Wouldn't hurt to ask.



Bill



kevinbonds wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 us builders when it comes to these investigations. We need to organize 

 a builder’s advocacy group to approach the NTSB or FAA, on our behalf, 

 to see that we get accurate info such as pictures of attachment points 

 etc. If there was a problem how would we get reliable information to 

 fix it in this climate?

 **

 **

 **

 **

 **

 **

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 6:18 am Post subject: Re: 601 Crash

I too was very disappointed with the report on the last 601 that suffered wing separation. Some of that disappointment came from fact that we had been given some information in this forum that the cause was incorrect or missing bolts at the rear wing attachment point. When the report came out there was no mention of the rear wing attachment point so we were left hanging. 



But I was thinking about this last night and I feel these less than thorough investigations are the price we pay for the fact that the FAA and NTSB don't issue ADs for experimental aircraft.



This lack of ADs is probably a good thing because unlike type certified aircraft each builder's plane will be different in some way and ADs in this situation would be unworkable.



The EAA getting involved in accident investigations and then dispensing that knowledge through a database of some sort seems to me the most logical alternative to FAA/NTSB involvement.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

Kevin Bonds

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 171
Location: Nashville, Tn

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 6:35 am Post subject: 601 Crash

I meant a representative from the 601XL community. Hope this goes through. I am having trouble with my email. 



kevin

 -------------- Original message ----------------------

From: Bill Steer <steerr(at)bellsouth.net>

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Wouldn't the EAA be the "builder's advocacy group" you're talking about? 

 Wonder if they'd entertain the idea? Wouldn't hurt to ask.

 

 Bill

_________________
KevinBonds
Nashville, TN
Plans-building Zenith CH601XL w/Corvair Power
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds

steerr(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 6:39 am Post subject: 601 Crash

Jeez.  I'm one of those fumble-headed seniors and didn't take offense at 

all.  Matter of fact, I'm glad somebody's worried about the abilities of 

some builders, not only for the flying aspect, but also for building.  

How many of us have seen building practices that would best be described 

as poor?  We can offer advice but can't really do anything about it.  

Responsible builders will avail themselves of the resources they need 

for building and flying well.  We can only wish the rest of them good 

luck.  That's what the EAA Tech Counselor and Flight Advisor programs 

are all about, isn't it?



Bill



Do not archive



 	  Quote: 	
		   Jeff, I'm sure you mean well, but do yourself a favor.

 Save this Email someplace safe, until the day that you

 are one of those despicably, incompetent,

 bumble-headed, "Seniors" (they are all the same you

 know) and then see if you feel the same way about this

 topic.

Trainnut01(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 6:49 am Post subject: 601 Crash

Igor Sikorski was quoted as saying that "in the early years of aviation  designers acted as their own test pilots which tended to weed out bad  designers." I think that must work for bad builders also.

 Carroll

  

 do not archive



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

marinegunner(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 7:05 am Post subject: 601 Crash

Jeff,

 You sound like one of those folks who think it is perfectly OK for some bureaucrat being the only one who can judge who should have a medical and who should not or who should or should not fly. I know a number of folks who are in their 60's, 70's , 80' and even a few in their 90's who fly on a regular basis. I myself am 62 and have been flying on a regular basis since I was eight. I also controlled airplanes for 16 years, got shot at in them, flew them into really serious WX in all types of climates, etc., etc. Many of them still receive special issuance medical certificates and fly some pretty high performance airplanes (not just fast, etc., but things like JN-4's, DR-VII's, F4F's, etc.) Many have, like me, have dropped down to the Sport Pilot level because it is to much of a hassle to get the special issuance each year and do not fly high performance, night, IFR, etc. anymore. The chances of me flying into IMC conditions any more are either very slim or none - I suspect closer to none. That is because my experience, knowledge and judgement will most likely not let it happen. That is my choice. The guy who crashed the 601 on May 2nd was a new Sport Pilot (not sure if that meant young or not) flying a very well  built SLA into conditions (if we can believe the WX reports) that probably included embedded T-storm(s), rain, wind, etc. Very stupid and has nothing to do with ability to get physical or having some bureaucrat saying he can or can not get a medical. Besides, how many people fly and have been for decades without a medical or pilot license. I cannot judge the right or wrong here, but I can say. To allow the government to control our lives more than is absolutely necessary is taking away freedom. If you want that, go somewhere else and fly - especially where the government in all its wisdom taxes you or dictates you out of flying  and many of life's other pleasures. Be sure to enjoy the loss of freedom and choice. OH, BTW, how old are you and how much flying experiance do you have. Knowing that helps others judge the wisdom of one's statements. 

Do Not Archive

-- 

Semper Fi,

Steven R. Hulland

CH 600 Taildragger

Amado, AZ



This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies scanned prior to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help insure virus free email and attachments.  

  [quote][b]

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 7:27 am Post subject: Re: 601 Crash

It is the fumble-headed seniors at my airport that are keeping me on the straight and narrow as far as building practices go. About every third week I hear the sound of three golf carts heading towards my hanger. Then in come 5 or 6 who inspect everything I've done, drop a word or two of advice or praise, comment on the hinge-less ailerons and then off they go. 



I don't know if they are more interested in the airplane or the unusualness that somebody under 70 is hanging out at the airport.



These guys, only one of which was ever a professional pilot, have forgotten more about aviation than I will ever know. And while they will all admit they are subject to the occasional "senior moment" most of them can still shoot an IFR approach to minimum and not bat an eye.



Since they've known me since I was born and were all friends of my Grandfather, who taught about half of them to fly, couldn't be happier to see a new generation at the airport. Several have made a point of bringing their grandsons out to my hanger trying to get them interested in building and flying.



P.S. They seem to think I'm doing an OK job because they've said that once N601WR is flying they are going to be counting the hours so they'll know when I've flown the 40 off so they can go up with me.



 	  steerr(at)bellsouth.net wrote: 	
		  Jeez.  I'm one of those fumble-headed seniors and didn't take offense at 

all.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

Kevin Bonds

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 171
Location: Nashville, Tn

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 8:42 am Post subject: 601 Crash

_________________
KevinBonds
Nashville, TN
Plans-building Zenith CH601XL w/Corvair Power
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds

PatrickW

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 9:14 am Post subject: Re: 601 Crash

Just got an email alert of another one that went down in the UK.



Yahoo! Alerts Yahoo! News - My Alerts - Edit Alert  

Friday, May 11, 2007 9:10 AM PDT 



Wing spar failed in plane crash

Yorkshire Post Today Fri, 11 May 2007 5:25 AM PDT

TWO men who died when a light aircraft plummeted to the ground in a ball of flames were the victims of a break in the plane's wing structure, a report has revealed. (11/05/2007 10:21:12)  



http://www.yorkshiretoday.co.uk/ViewArticle.aspx?sectionid=1084&articleid=2871416



The article says August, but this is the first I've heard of this one.   Anybody know anything more?  How does the UK do their investigations?



Patrick

601XL/Corvair

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 11:01 am Post subject: Re: 601 Crash

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/pic01/load_test03.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo-testing.html&h=238&w=350&sz=22&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=8hJ3XAie0BpeyM:&tbnh=82&tbnw=120&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dch601%2Bsandbags%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN



How about we do it right. Everyone that's really interested in knowing chips in $100 (need about 20 poeple) to build two wings (one for destroying and one for max G testing and then disassmebly) and a test rig (not a whole fuselage), and then load the shit out of it with sandbags and see what the results are. There's gotta be a few retired guys here who live near each other that can work together to get some wings made in a relatively short period of time and get this done. If they can build one at Oshkosh in 7 days, a few retired guys should be able to put one together in a month or so and see what gives. literally. Maybe Zenith would even be willing to donate and entire kit to Matronics for the purpose of testing.



Personally, I'm not keen on two features of the wing, the relatively short moment arm of the 6 attach bolts of the front spar to the center spar. Even so, none of these reports indicate a failure there. I'm also not keen on the .032 spar cap angle. Mine are .040, only because I ran out of .032, but now I'm glad I'm using .040. Even so, seeing as how the top cap angle is 90 degrees, I would have designed it with an 1/8 extrusion for a cap angle. The stress for a positive G failure on a wing is in the upper connections (rivets) and the structure that keeps everything riveted together. My guess when that wing is overstressed is the cap angle starts to bend up with the skin as the skin pulls away from the skeleton. With an extrusion for a top cap angle this initial point of failure would be that much stronger. The bottom isn't as critical in a positive G failure because that side is under tension where as the top is under compression.



I would also add another rib between 4 and 5 and do away with the wing locker, particularly if the nose skin is a 3 piece nose skin instead of the standard 12' one piece nose skin.



Here's Boeings wing stress test. They're calculated failure is when the top rivets and connections fail. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Uo0C01Fwb8

Last edited by ashontz on Fri May 11, 2007 11:48 am; edited 2 times in total

steveadams

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 191

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am Post subject: Re: 601 Crash

 	  ashontz wrote: 	
		  http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/pic01/load_test03.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo-testing.html&h=238&w=350&sz=22&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=8hJ3XAie0BpeyM:&tbnh=82&tbnw=120&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dch601%2Bsandbags%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN



How about we do it right. Everyone that's really interested in knowing chips in $100 (need about 20 poeple) to build two wings (one for destroying and one for max G testing and then disassmebly) and a test rig (not a whole fuselage), and then load the shit out of it with sandbags and see what the results are. There's gotta be a few retired guys here who live near each other that can work together to get some wings made in a relatively short period of time and get this done. If they can build one at Oshkosh in 7 days, a few retired guys should be able to put one together in a month or so and see what gives. literally. Maybe Zenith would even be willing to donate and entire kit to Matronics for the purpose of testing. 	




Uh, this has been done by Zenith already, both with a 601UL and 601xl. Why don't you ask them for the results. It would save a lot of wasted effort.

Structural Load Testing of the Zodiac:

 

 

The ZODIAC design is the product of extensive research and development, and the result of professional engineering by Chris Heintz, a leading designer of light aircraft. The modern design makes use of advanced technologies, while using proven design concepts and simple systems for easy assembly and maintenance. A professional design, the ZODIAC structure has undergone a complete and rigorous flight test and design stress analysis, as well as load testing of critical components:

load-testB.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

11.19 KB

Viewed:

428 Time(s)

Last edited by steveadams on Fri May 11, 2007 11:30 am; edited 1 time in total

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 11:25 am Post subject: Re: 601 Crash

 	  steveadams wrote: 	
		   	  ashontz wrote: 	
		  http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/pic01/load_test03.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo-testing.html&h=238&w=350&sz=22&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=8hJ3XAie0BpeyM:&tbnh=82&tbnw=120&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dch601%2Bsandbags%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN



How about we do it right. Everyone that's really interested in knowing chips in $100 (need about 20 poeple) to build two wings (one for destroying and one for max G testing and then disassmebly) and a test rig (not a whole fuselage), and then load the shit out of it with sandbags and see what the results are. There's gotta be a few retired guys here who live near each other that can work together to get some wings made in a relatively short period of time and get this done. If they can build one at Oshkosh in 7 days, a few retired guys should be able to put one together in a month or so and see what gives. literally. Maybe Zenith would even be willing to donate and entire kit to Matronics for the purpose of testing. 	




Uh, this has been done by Zenith already, both with a 601UL and 601xl. Why don't you ask them for the results. It would save a lot of wasted effort. 	




Because we could see for ourselves. If I was retired, I'd do this.

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 11:40 am Post subject: 601 Crash

i think they already did this to one, call hientz and find out the resluts of the load test.



--

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 11:41 am Post subject: 601 Crash

I'm all for finding answers to the structural question.  However, 

this is what the original designer probably already did.  He is the 

world's best expert on both this kind of aircraft design and this 

particular design.  The best way to approach this problem is to 

recruit Chris (possibly through his heirs and pretenders) to take a 

serious look at the current design and figure out why all these 

planes are falling apart in flight.



Paul

XL fuselage



P.S. by "Pretenders" I mean all the designers who modify drawings 

with Chris's name on them without adding their own name to the designer block.

At 12:07 PM 5/11/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  How about we do it right. Everyone that's really interested in 

knowing chips in $100 (need about 20 poeple) to build two wings (one 

for destroying and one for max G testing and then disassmebly) and a 

test rig (not a whole fuselage), and then load the shit out of it 

with sandbags and see what the results are. There's gotta be a few 

retired guys here who live near each other that can work together to 

get some wings made in a relatively short period of time and get 

this done. If they can build one at Oshkosh in 7 days, a few retired 

guys should be able to put one together in a month or so and see 

what gives. literally. Maybe Zenith would even be willing to donate 

and entire kit to Matronics for the purpose of testing.

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 12:17 pm Post subject: 601 Crash

I am strapped too tight right now for that - but, if I were doing this I would also want to measure the effect of sloppy/nonexistant/axial scratch generating deburring and oversized fastener holes of the failure mode and loads.



ashontz <ashontz(at)nbme.org> wrote:  [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" 



http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/pic01/load_test03.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo-testing.html&h 38&w=350&sz 2&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=8hJ3XAie0BpeyM:&tbnh=82&tbnw=120&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dch601%2Bsandbags%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN



How about we do it right. Everyone that's really interested in knowing chips in $100 (need about 20 poeple) to build two wings (one for destroying and one for max       Be a better Globetrotter. [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48254/*http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/_ylc=X3oDMTI5MGx2aThyBF9TAzIxMTU1MDAzNTIEX3MDMzk2NTQ1MTAzBHNlYwNCQUJwaWxsYXJfTklfMzYwBHNsawNQcm9kdWN0X3F1ZXN0aW9uX3BhZ2U-?link=list&sid=396545469]Get better travel answers [/url]from someone who knows.

Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.   [quote][b]

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 12:55 pm Post subject: Re: 601 Crash

I'd like to see what a Piper Cherokee wing looks like in comparison.



[quote="planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co"]I am strapped too tight right now for that - but, if I were doing this I would also want to measure the effect of sloppy/nonexistant/axial scratch generating deburring and oversized fastener holes of the failure mode and loads.



ashontz <ashontz> wrote:  [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" 



http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/pic01/load_test03.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo-testing.html&h 38&w=350&sz 2&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=8hJ3XAie0BpeyM:&tbnh=82&tbnw=120&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dch601%2Bsandbags%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN



How about we do it right. Everyone that's really interested in knowing chips in $100 (need about 20 poeple) to build two wings (one for destroying and one for max       Be a better Globetrotter. [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48254/*http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/_ylc=X3oDMTI5MGx2aThyBF9TAzIxMTU1MDAzNTIEX3MDMzk2NTQ1MTAzBHNlYwNCQUJwaWxsYXJfTklfMzYwBHNsawNQcm9kdWN0X3F1ZXN0aW9uX3BhZ2U-?link=list&sid=396545469]Get better travel answers [/url]from someone who knows.

Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.    	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3
Page 3 of 3

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum