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Votex Generators
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gdh(at)isp.com
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 3:38 pm    Post subject: Votex Generators Reply with quote

All,
Has anyone installed Vortex Generators on their Europa Aircraft?? If not, why not? If you have, would you please share your findings?
Thank you very much.
Dale Hetrick
Europa XS, Tri-Gear, Jabiru
80 hours
[quote][b]


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ptiller(at)lolacars.com
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 12:20 am    Post subject: Votex Generators Reply with quote

Hi,

Why would you install vortex generators on a Europa? VG's are an aerodynamic fix to help when you've got it wrong (i.e flow separations ahead of ailerons etc). From what I've read, Don Dykins got it right and I can't see a need for adding anything else (other than decent wing/fuse seals that have been discussed earlier).

Phil
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rampil



Joined: 04 May 2007
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 7:22 am    Post subject: Re: Votex Generators Reply with quote

VGs are most appropriate for non-laminar flow wings to induce more
laminar-type flow. Unless you have a really crappy fill and paint job,
vgs won't help a europa much. Phil is right, read a copy of Dykin's
book on the Europa wing.


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fklein(at)orcasonline.com
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 9:43 am    Post subject: Votex Generators Reply with quote

On Thursday, May 10, 2007, at 01:20 AM, flyingphil2 wrote:

Quote:
From what I've read, Don Dykins got it right...

..with the possible exception of fuselage/wing interference drag...IMO
most probably the present configuration suffers due to a concern
regarding kit component manufacturing and trailering considerations in
that a generous fillet/fairing is sadly missing...

Fred

do not archive


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ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 12:57 pm    Post subject: Votex Generators Reply with quote

Essential to getting a reasonable and consistent amount of air through my (rather small) cockpit NACA vents! (which are located in the "standard" position).

Do NACA vents have a critical Re above which they don't work well?

I have a suspicion that a VG ahead of the NACA on top of the cowl may be beneficial too, as this vent seems to stall at high AoA (i.e. when pulling in to the climb without change of airspeed the WoT revs are not maintained meaning (on mine) that hot under cowl air is being consumed, rather than cool air from outside).

Need to find out for sure.

Duncan McF.
[quote] ---


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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 1:39 pm    Post subject: Votex Generators Reply with quote

Ira
VGs were applied to the wing and canard of a Long EZ, which has laminar
sections on both, to reduce stall speed, the VGs re energise the laminar
boundary layer and help to prevent separation after the max thickness
point of the section. Stall was reduced by 7 kts.
Graham

rampil wrote:
Quote:


VGs are most appropriate for non-laminar flow wings to induce more
laminar-type flow. Unless you have a really crappy fill and paint job,
vgs won't help a europa much. Phil is right, read a copy of Dykin's
book on the Europa wing.

--------
Ira N224XS




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=112028#112028












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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 4:56 pm    Post subject: Votex Generators Reply with quote

On Thursday, May 10, 2007, at 02:41 PM, Graham Singleton wrote:

Quote:
VGs were applied to the wing and canard of a Long EZ, which has
laminar sections on both, to reduce stall speed, the VGs re energise
the laminar boundary layer and help to prevent separation after the
max thickness point of the section. Stall was reduced by 7 kts.
Graham

So here's a question...

Is it conceivable that adding VGs to the Europa could reduce the stall
speed sufficiently to meet the LSA requirements?


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 5:13 pm    Post subject: Votex Generators Reply with quote

Duncan,
It would be worth trying. It should only require a few VG's.
Dale
[quote] ---


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 5:15 pm    Post subject: Votex Generators Reply with quote

Graham,
My goal is to reduce the stall speeds sufficiently to "maybe" qualify for
the LSA designation. Having slower approach speeds would be a big plus as
well.
Dale
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 5:18 pm    Post subject: Votex Generators Reply with quote

Fred,
I.m told that the VG's can ruduce the stall speeds by as much as 12 mph,
aircraft dependable of course.
I'm thinking seriously of giving it a try.
Dale
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keithhickling(at)clear.ne
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 11:43 pm    Post subject: Votex Generators Reply with quote

Do they increase drag at higher speeds?

Keith Hickling.

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ptiller(at)lolacars.com
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 1:34 am    Post subject: Votex Generators Reply with quote

This is developing into quite a discussion. I'm an aerodynamicist by trade and so here's my answers to the points above:

1. If someone wants to try VGs on a Europa then go ahead but I suspect they won't make any difference. The wing design is far more advanced than those seen on www.landshorter.com which tend to be things like the Kitfox etc. VGs may improve flow over the ailerons which will make the aircraft feel better at slow speeds and will improve controllability near the stall. With a poor wing design they may reduce the stall speed. Don Dykins used a lot of his (and his department's) experience in the Europa wing and that was previously used on aircraft like the BAe 146 and early Airbus.

2. Graham is right about the Long Eze and the way in which the VGs helped. I guess the laminar region on the canards was probably the first 25% of the chord and there was a trailing edge separation. The Europa is designed to have a larger laminar region with no separation and so the VGs will not help in this case.

3. To reduce the stall speed on the Europa you would need to have a more powerful flap with maybe an additional 'flap vane' ahead of the main flap or something like leading edge slats. You could try a 'blown' wing as well if you were keen.

On another point:

NACA intakes are designed to be an efficient and low drag intake method. The edges of the intake generate small vortices which the flow down the intake and they work very well indeed if positioned in the right place. I think Duncan's issue may be down to a positioning problem and you won't improve the flow down that duct with a VG at high aoa if the flow isn't going that way in the first place. That brings me on to another point. I routinely run large computer simulations of external aerodynamic cases in my job. I'm quite keen to look at a Europa but need some CAD geometry. The factory doesn't have any as the moulds were hand made so my question is has anyone, who has too much spare time on their hands, made a good quality CAD representation of a Europa? I know there are some models floating round for flight simulators but they are far too basic for what I would need.

Regards,

Phil
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 7:12 am    Post subject: Votex Generators Reply with quote

Phil,

The resourceful minds plugged into this forum never cease to amaze
me...thanks for sharing your knowledge of VGs.

Would you care to opine as to the aerodynamics of the
wingroot/flap/fuselage intersection and what might be done to reduce
drag in this area?

Fred
A194

On Friday, May 11, 2007, at 02:33 AM, flyingphil2 wrote:

Quote:


I'm an aerodynamicist by trade and so here's my answers to the points
above:


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 7:21 am    Post subject: Votex Generators Reply with quote

Keith,
Not according to their information.
Dale
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 7:34 am    Post subject: Votex Generators Reply with quote

Phil,
Thank you very much for your insight on VG's. Guess I had better wait until
after you run your simulations before adding them.
Thanks again,
Dale
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 8:15 am    Post subject: Votex Generators Reply with quote

Hi Fred,

Well my thoughts on this would be as follows:

1. Is there a problem in that area? Oil flow tests would show up any separations in that area or maybe someone with a dirty aircraft has flown through rain and has some pictures of the surface flow patterns that were left. If there is no obvious problem then I'd leave it alone.

2. If there is a problem then making a really good job of the wing fillets would be the best approach and maybe trying to maximise the radius of that fillet (larger radius = better). The problem with a large radius is what happens when you come to the trailing edge of the wing (or in the Europa's case, where the wing ends and the flap starts). You need to lose that large radius and run it out to nothing smoothly.

3. Sealing the wing against the fuselage would definitely be good. On gliders, we use PVC tape but that only works if you have a small 'wing stub' moulded into the fuselage that the wing butts up to. On a Europa I would say that some high density foam on the inside of the wing root fillet would do the trick and when the wings are fitted, the foam is compressed and thus forms a nice seal. I.m not sure what gaps people have between the fuselage and the wing fillets but try and keep them as small as possible.

In terms of drag reduction I would have thought that there is little to do on the Europa. It's already an excellent design and the use of composite materials (and ability to build almost any shape) helps this. Compared to some homebuilts on the market using the same engine, it has to be a very efficient machine. Having said that, you notice the difference on a glider if the wing roots are not taped and the controls are not sealed and so all these little bits of attention to detail would add up and help reduce the drag that little bit further.

Actually, that's an interesting point above. Out of all the homebuilts powered with a 912S, there can't be many aircraft that are faster than a Europa. There is the DynAero MCR1 (which I had an amazing flight in once) and that is very fast but look at the size of it - it's tiny. Anyone have any other comparisons?

Phil
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rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 8:19 am    Post subject: Votex Generators Reply with quote

A few negatives to keep in mind with Vortex generators:

Cleaning = PIA
Waxing = PIA
Painting = PIA

Another thing to break

Ron Parigoris


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Joined: 04 May 2007
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 9:40 am    Post subject: Re: Votex Generators Reply with quote

Re Conversion to LSA specs

Europa04 and Custom Flight Creations (AKA Europa USA)
currently has Bud Yerly working on a new wing design to meet
the LSA spec and be easier and less expensive.

As I noted previously in the forum, Bud is the only guy I who has a
degree in ->Low Speed<- Aeronautical Engineering from the US Air
Force Academy.

Bud's work so far with E04 has enabled the company to reduce the
kit price by $8k.

The new wing is still in the design phase, so bugging Bud or E04 is not
likely to be fruitful.


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 9:57 am    Post subject: Votex Generators Reply with quote

Phil
the nioest wing root I've seen is Ted and Justin's, small radius at the
LE, large at the TE. picture attached. imho this is the way to do it,
the fillet needs to be flexible to allow wing bending without crushing
the fuselage side, so no more than 3 plies of BID at the edge. There are
several Europas with this style but only Ted's has the elegant change of
radius moving aft.
Easier to rig a wing done like this too, something to line up with as it
goes in.
Graham

flyingphil2 wrote:
Quote:


Hi Fred,

Well my thoughts on this would be as follows:

1. Is there a problem in that area? Oil flow tests would show up any separations in that area or maybe someone with a dirty aircraft has flown through rain and has some pictures of the surface flow patterns that were left. If there is no obvious problem then I'd leave it alone.

2. If there is a problem then making a really good job of the wing fillets would be the best approach and maybe trying to maximise the radius of that fillet (larger radius = better). The problem with a large radius is what happens when you come to the trailing edge of the wing (or in the Europa's case, where the wing ends and the flap starts). You need to lose that large radius and run it out to nothing smoothly.

3. Sealing the wing against the fuselage would definitely be good. On gliders, we use PVC tape but that only works if you have a small 'wing stub' moulded into the fuselage that the wing butts up to. On a Europa I would say that some high density foam on the inside of the wing root fillet would do the trick and when the wings are fitted, the foam is compressed and thus forms a nice seal. I.m not sure what gaps people have between the fuselage and the wing fillets but try and keep them as small as possible.

In terms of drag reduction I would have thought that there is little to do on the Europa. It's already an excellent design and the use of composite materials (and ability to build almost any shape) helps this. Compared to some homebuilts on the market using the same engine, it has to be a very efficient machine. Having said that, you notice the difference on a glider if the wing roots are not taped and the controls are not sealed and so all these little bits of attention to detail would add up and help reduce the drag that little bit further.

Actually, that's an interesting point above. Out of all the homebuilts powered with a 912S, there can't be many aircraft that are faster than a Europa. There is the DynAero MCR1 (which I had an amazing flight in once) and that is very fast but look at the size of it - it's tiny. Anyone have any other comparisons?

Phil






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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 1:09 pm    Post subject: Votex Generators Reply with quote

Phil, Graham and all,
In attachment my solution for the wing root drag problem. While building I
fixed the fairing as well to the wing as to the fuselage and cut it vertical
with the wing root. Then I reinforced both to become entire part and
sufficient solid. I also prolonged the upper side at the fuselage to cover
the gap for the flap torque tube so that no spoiled fuel or water could
penetrate the fuselage. This solution gave me some advantages:
- the fuselage is certainly reinforced
- the rigging of the wing is easier because you see exactly were the root
has to meet
- sealing with tape is easy as I did before with my gliders.
Thank you Phil for your much apreciated intervention.
Karel Vranken.
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