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Propeller discussions

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paul.mcallister

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 177
Location: Waukesha, WI USA

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:57 pm Post subject: Propeller discussions

Hi all,



Among all of the CS propeller discussions I never see MT mentioned. They

make 2 two blade propellers, on electric, that the other is hydraulic.  The

electric one is the same weight as an Airmaster and the diameter of the

propeller is 180 cm / 70.8 inches, slightly less than an Airmaster.  As far

as prices goes, I seem to recall the Airmaster was something north of

$6000.00 US which is similar to the MT.  I know that the Airplast and

Woodcomp's are a lot less than this.



So... are there any Europa's out there with MT's, are they any good. Why am

I asking this ?, well I am now of the opinion that a product that needs to

be serviced in another country is way too much hassle.  The MT are assembled

& serviced in the US.



Paul

SPurpura(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:04 pm Post subject: Propeller discussions

I THOUGHT THAT THE MT PROP WAS GERMAN MFG.

paul.mcallister

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 177
Location: Waukesha, WI USA

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:03 pm Post subject: Propeller discussions

Sam,



Yes they are made in Germany and assembled in US.  There factory is in

Florida.



Paul



do not archive



--

topglock(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:31 pm Post subject: Propeller discussions

Unless I'm just having a large brain fart..... aren't Airmasters for the 

europa 63"?  Seems like 70+ is just a bit long...



Jeff - N55XS

140 hours



Paul McAllister wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hi all,



Among all of the CS propeller discussions I never see MT mentioned. They

make 2 two blade propellers, on electric, that the other is hydraulic.  The

electric one is the same weight as an Airmaster and the diameter of the

propeller is 180 cm / 70.8 inches, slightly less than an Airmaster.  As far

as prices goes, I seem to recall the Airmaster was something north of

$6000.00 US which is similar to the MT.  I know that the Airplast and

Woodcomp's are a lot less than this.



So... are there any Europa's out there with MT's, are they any good. Why am

I asking this ?, well I am now of the opinion that a product that needs to

be serviced in another country is way too much hassle.  The MT are assembled

& serviced in the US.



Paul

Ivor Phillips

Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 253
Location: London UK

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 2:04 am Post subject: Propeller discussions

Hi Paul

Bob Harrison has been using a MT three blade constant speed propeller for 

the last Five years on his Jabiru 3300,

Give him a call if you need more info!      ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk

---

paul.mcallister

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 177
Location: Waukesha, WI USA

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:25 am Post subject: Propeller discussions

Jeff,



I just looked at the manual and under Maximum diameter they have 72" / 183

cm, but then under that they state the weight and in brackets "Data shown

for 64" diameter and 10" spinner"



So.... I don't really know.  You would think that you get a reduction in

diameter for increasing the number of blades for a given HP capacity.



My interest in this whole topic is two fold. John Hurst once told me that

the Whirlwind propeller was good for an additional 20 knots at 17,500' over

the Airmaster.  At first glance this doesn't make much sense, usually a

multi bladed propeller is more efficient at altitude.  John agreed but

seemed to think that the Warp drive blades were just not very efficient.

Given that no A:B comparisons were made as a controlled experiment, then its

just an opinion.



Most of my flying is long cross country trips, typically in the 500 ~ 800 nm

range.  A propeller that would give me 20 more knots at altitude is

seductive.



My other interest in the whole topic is service, 6~8 week cycle times isn't

very good.  I suspect that from the US the issue same issues would exist for

the European sourced products.  So, am I about to spend +6k for another

propeller that might go faster and can provide local service.... probably

not, but I am just curious as to why the MT has never caught on in the

Europa community.



Cheers,  Paul

ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 6:33 am Post subject: Propeller discussions

<<I am just curious as to why the MT has never caught on in the

 	  Quote: 	
		   Europa community.



 Cheers,  Paul>>


	


Could be something to do with the price!

The MT tends to be heavier too.

There is a lot of experience with the MT on hte 4-seater BanBi; maybe that 

is more to do with "certification", alhtough one gets hte impression that 

the MT prop is custom-matched by the manufacturer to hte particular 

aircraft.

Perhaps Gilles could comment.

Duncan Mcf.

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:44 am Post subject: Propeller discussions

Paul,



Are yu sure about the 72"?. I am not near my Europa at the moment, but I 

could have sworn that that should read 62".

I had investigated the Hoffmann (also German) propeller, because it is widey 

used on certified aircraft with Rotax, i.e. Katana, Dimona and other 

motorgliders. It is 2-blade, cs, and feathering.

It is unlikely to be interesting for the Europa because: it is hydraulic, 

twice as heavy as the Airmaster setup, and twice as expensive as the 

Airmaster.

As far as I know, Airmaster don't actually make propellers. They make the 

AC200 control box and electronics etc. and fit it with the Warp Drive.

I am also planning to upgrade this year and my present choice is the new 

Woodcomp SR3000 with twin-blade of 170cm (67"). Anything longer would not be 

wise on the Europa, and definately not on the mono. Reason for the 2-blade 

version is reduced drag whenever I am in glider mode (one of these days).



Karl

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister(at)qia.net>

Reply-To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: Propeller discussions

Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 07:21:03 -0600




<paul.mcallister(at)qia.net>



Jeff,



I just looked at the manual and under Maximum diameter they have 72" / 183

cm, but then under that they state the weight and in brackets "Data shown

for 64" diameter and 10" spinner"



So.... I don't really know.  You would think that you get a reduction in

diameter for increasing the number of blades for a given HP capacity.



My interest in this whole topic is two fold. John Hurst once told me that

the Whirlwind propeller was good for an additional 20 knots at 17,500' over

the Airmaster.  At first glance this doesn't make much sense, usually a

multi bladed propeller is more efficient at altitude.  John agreed but

seemed to think that the Warp drive blades were just not very efficient.

Given that no A:B comparisons were made as a controlled experiment, then 

its

just an opinion.



Most of my flying is long cross country trips, typically in the 500 ~ 800 

nm

range.  A propeller that would give me 20 more knots at altitude is

seductive.



My other interest in the whole topic is service, 6~8 week cycle times isn't

very good.  I suspect that from the US the issue same issues would exist 

for

the European sourced products.  So, am I about to spend +6k for another

propeller that might go faster and can provide local service.... probably

not, but I am just curious as to why the MT has never caught on in the

Europa community.



Cheers,  Paul

lmorgan822(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 10:23 am Post subject: Propeller discussions

Look for Vari-Prop at Sun'n'fun.  Bolt on hydraulic system with blades custom fitted to your application. Lighter weight than Airmaster. 

 

--

ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:31 pm Post subject: Propeller discussions

There is a vague reference to it (including photo) at:

http://www.beltedair.com/

But I couldn't find anything else either.



Duncan Mcf.

---

karelvranken(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:11 pm Post subject: Propeller discussions

Paul,

You never heard of Rutan (Voyager) about MT?

Karel Vranken.

---

lmorgan822(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 11:20 pm Post subject: Propeller discussions

Hi Jos,

 

We have both a marine and aircraft prop.  We have not built our web site for the A/C prop yet.  This weekend I am testing a 4 bladed variant on a T-51 with a Rotax 914.  We have 2, 3, and 4 bladed props, and two hub sizes.  The larger hubs are designed for the direct drive engines in the 180 to 350 HP, the smaller hubs are designed for the Rotax, Jabiru, etc, although currently running on a 200 HP Chevy V6 in an RV6 with a reduction drive.

 

I am the owner of the company.  We are an Oregon LLC.

 

If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to contact me at lmorgan822(at)hotmail.com.  503-804-5508.

 

Thank you for your inquiry.

 

Larry Morgan

 

 

--

ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 1:09 am Post subject: Propeller discussions

Jos,

Could you ask Larry to scan some brochures for placing on the Photoshare?

And/or ask for details of a Europa compliant variant (eg 64" 3-blade).



Duncan Mcf.

do not archive

---

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 2:39 am Post subject: Propeller discussions

Karl, You are right - 62" or 1600mm is the standard diameter prop fitted to

the Europa. 64" or 1625mm is the maximum that Europa recommend or that PFA

will approve, at least for the mono and I doubt it would be more for the

tricycle.

           If you have the SR3000 it will feather. Do you really feel that 3

blades will make a significant difference to glide performance when

feathered?

Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ

---

lmorgan822(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:46 am Post subject: Propeller discussions

Greetings Duncan and Jos,

 

I have brochures that I can send and will try to scan.  I am not a computer whiz!!!

 

We can custom make blades to any length you need.  I currently have a set of 64's.  These blades are not cut down from something else.  They are actually made from scratch for your particular application. 

 

If anyone knows of a "Europa Driver" in the Pacific Northwest USA that would like to do some tests, I need to talk to them.

 

Thanks,

 

Larry

 

--

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 1:32 pm Post subject: Propeller discussions

Dave,



I think you mean 2 blades. I haven't really decided yet and it all depends 

what Woodcomp say about differences in performance. I got the impression 

from Jiri that the twin-blades perform better, but I am not convinced yet. 

The drag improvement in gliding may be very minimal, but other advantages 

are: less weight, lower price, and better visibility in gliding mode 

whenever the prop stops in the horizontal position.



Best regards,   Karl



do not archive

[quote]From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>

Reply-To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Propeller discussions

Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 10:39:05 -0000




<davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>



Karl, You are right - 62" or 1600mm is the standard diameter prop fitted to

the Europa. 64" or 1625mm is the maximum that Europa recommend or that PFA

will approve, at least for the mono and I doubt it would be more for the

tricycle.

            If you have the SR3000 it will feather. Do you really feel that 

3

blades will make a significant difference to glide performance when

feathered?

Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ

---

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