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Trim Problem with Ray Allen Relays

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Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881

Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:34 pm Post subject: Trim Problem with Ray Allen Relays

I have an interesting new problem that has crept up with my trim.

I was comparing notes at OSH with Scott and he's having the same issue,

and both of us have only had the problem for less than 2 weeks or so.



The issue is, you may be trimming your plane nose up or down, and when

you stop trimming in one direction, it won't operate in the opposite.

For instance, I overshot on nose down trim, but then it wouldn't let

me trim it back nose up.  It happened once the week before OSH, and

I got it to release by adding more nose down trim, and then doing the

nose up.  The downside to this is that if it stays stuck, you're now

even MORE nose down trimmed.  It happened again on the way to OSH, and

then it happened during the show and I had to land with lots of

pressure pulling back on the stick.



Scott got to Ray Allen's booth first and discussed it with them and

I followed afterwards and had the same discussion.  They said that

the REL-1 is now replaced with the REL-2 which is more heavy duty, but

that the REL-1 had operated for years with no issues, until recently.

Within the last couple years, the REL-1's have been produced as

RoHS compliant, (lead free) and now they're seeing them come back

with issues.  They gave both of us replacements free, as we were both

experiencing the same problem.  For a photo of these relays,

check these 2 links.  The first one is the original relay, and the

second is the new one.



http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/rel1.php

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/servoRelayDeck.php



I'll be replacing mine in the next day or so, but thought it

good to give a heads-up on this.  It will probably be something that

you run into if you have the REL-1 and got it within the last

couple years.



Also, rapping on the relay does get it to release...I tried that

today. So, it's physically sticking inside.  Normally, the relay

grounds both wires to the trim servo when not active, and I think

from what they told me that the sticking is actually the result

of it not completing it's previous trim operation fully, returning

to that ground-ground postion.



Here is some additional info on the relays from Ray Allen.



http://www.rayallencompany.com/RACmedia/instructionsREL.pdf

http://www.rayallencompany.com/products/accessories.html



Tim - 260 hours and counting

wayne.e(at)grandecom.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:26 am Post subject: Trim Problem with Ray Allen Relays

HI Tim,

  

 I'm having the same problem with my trim. I though  it was something we did wrong. I'm glad to hear there is a quick solution.  

  

 Thanks for the heads up.

  

 Wayne Edgerton #40336

  

 flying

  

 do not archive

   [quote][b]

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 7:08 am Post subject: Trim Problem with Ray Allen Relays

Just got word from Vic that he replaced his MAC relay last year too,

and now he *thinks* it's happening again (at least once).  That

would seem to show a trend...he's got over 400 hours, and I've got

260 and Scott in the low 200's I think.  So it looks like perhaps

the REL-1's will only go so long and you'll start having them

stick.  The prudent thing would be to replace them before that

happens.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Wayne Edgerton wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   HI Tim,

  

 I'm having the same problem with my trim. I though it was something we 

 did wrong. I'm glad to hear there is a quick solution.

  

 Thanks for the heads up.

  

 Wayne Edgerton #40336

  

 flying

  

 do not archive

 

 *

n8vim(at)arrl.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:27 am Post subject: Trim Problem with Ray Allen Relays

Hey Y'all...

I'm an EE, and one question keeps popping into my head on the relay issue:

Why are you using a *mechanical* relay? Does it give you any advantage 

over a solid-state relay or equivalent circuit?

Just curious...  Neither right or wrong implied....

-Jim 40384 (just unpacking fuselage kit between downpours.. Woohoo!)

Tim Olson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Just got word from Vic that he replaced his MAC relay last year too,

 and now he *thinks* it's happening again (at least once).  That

 would seem to show a trend...he's got over 400 hours, and I've got

 260 and Scott in the low 200's I think.  So it looks like perhaps

 the REL-1's will only go so long and you'll start having them

 stick.  The prudent thing would be to replace them before that

 happens.

 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

 do not archive

 Wayne Edgerton wrote:

> HI Tim,

>  

> I'm having the same problem with my trim. I though it was something 

> we did wrong. I'm glad to hear there is a quick solution.

>  

> Thanks for the heads up.

>  

> Wayne Edgerton #40336

>  

> flying

>  

> do not archive

>

> *

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:09 am Post subject: Trim Problem with Ray Allen Relays

Jim,



Man, while I agree with you, it's a tough one to call, because either

way you can have a failure.  I guess I'm just as uncomfortable

having one than the other, but right now there isn't a commercial

alternative that is in ready-to-use form, and I myself will be

happy to just snip and solder to get it working well.  From the

sounds of it, they've been abusing and testing the heck out of

their REL-2, so I would hope we wouldn't continue to see issues

after that swap.  If someone came out with a pretty foolproof

commercial solid state relay for the task, complete with

interchangeable wire harness, I'd probably look at it too.

I'm a build-it-yourself guy, but on this one I'm not only lazy, but

I'd want to see someone's schematic first.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

James Hein wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Hey Y'all...

 

 I'm an EE, and one question keeps popping into my head on the relay issue:

 

 Why are you using a *mechanical* relay? Does it give you any advantage 

 over a solid-state relay or equivalent circuit?

 

 Just curious...  Neither right or wrong implied....

 

 -Jim 40384 (just unpacking fuselage kit between downpours.. Woohoo!)

 

 Tim Olson wrote:

 

> 

>

> Just got word from Vic that he replaced his MAC relay last year too,

> and now he *thinks* it's happening again (at least once).  That

> would seem to show a trend...he's got over 400 hours, and I've got

> 260 and Scott in the low 200's I think.  So it looks like perhaps

> the REL-1's will only go so long and you'll start having them

> stick.  The prudent thing would be to replace them before that

> happens.

>

> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

> do not archive

> Wayne Edgerton wrote:

>

>> HI Tim,

>>  

>> I'm having the same problem with my trim. I though it was something 

>> we did wrong. I'm glad to hear there is a quick solution.

>>  

>> Thanks for the heads up.

>>  

>> Wayne Edgerton #40336

>>  

>> flying

>>  

>> do not archive

>>

>> *

planesmith(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 12:08 pm Post subject: Trim Problem with Ray Allen Relays

In Ray Allen's documentation, that comes with the 207 hand grip, it shows a way to direct wire the stick controls without the rely. However, if a second grip or the panel mounted rocker switch is used the alternative shown is a DPDT switch that transfers the function for  one control stick to the other or panel rocker switch. Not as elegant as the relays but it is an option.

  

 Vern Smith #324 fuselage systems

  

 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 12:06:40 -0500

 From: Tim(at)MyRV10.com

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Trim Problem with Ray Allen Relays

 

 --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>

 

 Jim,

 

 Man, while I agree with you, it's a tough one to call, because either

 way you can have a failure. I guess I'm just as uncomfortable

 having one than the other, but right now there isn't a commercial

 alternative that is in ready-to-use form, and I myself will be

 happy to just snip and solder to get it working well. From the

 sounds of it, they've been abusing and testing the heck out of

 their REL-2, so I would hope we wouldn't continue to see issues

 after that swap. If someone came out with a pretty foolproof

 commercial solid state relay for the task, complete with

 interchangeable wire harness, I'd probably look at it too.

 I'm a build-it-yourself guy, but on this one I'm not only lazy, but

 I'd want to see someone's schematic first.

 

 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

 do not archive

 

 

 James Hein wrote:

 > --> RV10-List message posted by: James Hein <n8vim(at)arrl.net>

 > 

 > Hey Y'all...

 > 

 > I'm an EE, and one question keeps popping into my head on the relay issue:

 > 

 > Why are you using a *mechanical* relay? Does it give you any advantage 

 > over a solid-state relay or equivalent circuit?

 > 

 > Just curious... Neither right or wrong implied....

 > 

 > -Jim 40384 (just unpacking fuselage kit between downpours.. Woohoo!)

 > 

 > Tim Olson wrote:

 > 

 >> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>

 >>

 >> Just got word from Vic that he replaced his MAC relay last year too,

 >> and now he *thinks* it's happening again (at least once). That

 >> would seem to show a trend...he's got over 400 hours, and I've got

 >> 260 and Scott in the low 200's I think. So it looks like perhaps

 >> the REL-1's will only go so long and you'll start having them

 >> stick. The prudent thing would be to replace them before that

 >> happens.

 >>

 >> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

 >> do not archive

 >>

 >>

 >> Wayne Edgerton wrote:

 >>

 >>> HI Tim,

 >>> 

 >>> I'm having the same problem with my trim. I though it was something 

 >>> we did wrong. I'm glad to hear there is a quick solution.

 >>> 

 >>> Thanks for the heads up.

 >>> 

 >>> Wayne Edgerton #40336

 >>> 

 >>> flying

 >>> 

 >>> do not archive

 >>>

 >>> *

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 

 ===============

 

 

 


	


Don't get caught with egg on your face.    Play Chicktionary!   [quote][b]

LarryRosen

Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 415
Location: Medford, NJ

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:39 pm Post subject: Trim Problem with Ray Allen Relays

Aircraft Extras has a relay board for the Ray Allen relays.

<http://www.aircraftextras.com/RelayBoard1.htm>

Any experience out there with these relays.  Just about ready to mount 

the pair I have.



-- 

Larry Rosen

RV-10 #356

http://lrosen.nerv10.com

_________________
Larry Rosen
#40356
N205EN (reserved)
<http>

Matt Dralle
Site Admin

Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 26321
Location: Livermore CA USA

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:54 pm Post subject: Trim Problem with Ray Allen Relays

At 02:35 PM 7/29/2007  Sunday, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Aircraft Extras has a relay board for the Ray Allen relays.

<http://www.aircraftextras.com/RelayBoard1.htm>

Any experience out there with these relays.  Just about ready to mount the pair I have.



-- 

Larry Rosen

RV-10 #356

http://lrosen.nerv10.com




	




Our Matronics Governor MkIII does a similar function and includes speed control in a small, reliable package:



        http://www.matronics.com/governor/



There are over 1000 RVs flying with the Governor MkIII!



Best regards,



Matt Dralle

Matronics



Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551

925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email

http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft

_________________
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator

ddddsp1(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:42 am Post subject: Trim Problem with Ray Allen Relays

Matt, 

Are you saying a person can just replace the RE-1 relays with your MK governor?  How is yours different from the ray Allen (besides speed control) internally? 

Dean 

805HL 



________________________________________________________________________

 s.

 font>    [quote][b]

Ray.R.Doerr(at)sprint.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:38 am Post subject: Trim Problem with Ray Allen Relays

Exactly.  I've designed and built my own Ailron, Elevator and Flap controller using solid state MOSFET drivers.  I have 290 hours on my RV-10 now and all the trim motors are working perfectly.  The problem with relays over time is they can stick or build up carbon on the leads from opening and closing all the time.  I very small circuit board could be made with the H MOSFET driver on it and a DB-9 connector.



Thank You

Ray Doerr

40250

N519RV



--

sam(at)fr8dog.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:19 am Post subject: Trim Problem with Ray Allen Relays

Could you pass along a parts list and a schematic?

 Thanks,

 Sam Marlow

 30hrs

 

 Doerr, Ray R [NTK] wrote: [quote]   [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "Doerr, Ray R [NTK]" <Ray.R.Doerr(at)sprint.com> (Ray.R.Doerr(at)sprint.com)  	Exactly.  I've designed and built my own Ailron, Elevator and Flap controller using solid state MOSFET drivers.  I have 290 hours on my RV-10 now and all the trim motors are working perfectly.  The problem with relays over time is they can stick or build up carbon on the leads from opening and closing all the time.  I very small circuit board could be made with the H MOSFET driver on it and a DB-9 connector.    Thank You Ray Doerr 40250 N519RV    --

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:28 am Post subject: Trim Problem with Ray Allen Relays

No kidding, Ray, that would be awesome if you have a schematic and parts

list.  Would be a good way to go.  I did get my new relay swapped in

yesterday so I'm good to go now, but when the next one sticks I'd

just re-do everything electronic...as long as it's fully wiring compatible.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Sam Marlow wrote:

[quote] Could you pass along a parts list and a schematic?

 Thanks,

 Sam Marlow

 30hrs

 

 Doerr, Ray R [NTK] wrote:

> 

>

> 	Exactly.  I've designed and built my own Ailron, Elevator and Flap controller using solid state MOSFET drivers.  I have 290 hours on my RV-10 now and all the trim motors are working perfectly.  The problem with relays over time is they can stick or build up carbon on the leads from opening and closing all the time.  I very small circuit board could be made with the H MOSFET driver on it and a DB-9 connector.

>

> Thank You

> Ray Doerr

> 40250

> N519RV

>

> --

Matt Dralle
Site Admin

Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 26321
Location: Livermore CA USA

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:53 am Post subject: Trim Problem with Ray Allen Relays

At 04:38 AM 7/30/2007  Monday, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Matt,



Are you saying a person can just replace the RE-1 relays with your MK governor?  How is yours different from the ray Allen (besides speed control) internally?



Dean



805HL


	


Yes, exactly.  The Governor MkIII replaces the functionality of the RE-1 plus adds the speed control functionality.  The Governor MkIII uses exceptionally high quality components and we've had little issues with them when installed according to the instructions.  They are available from Van's Aircraft and direct from our website: http://www.matronics.com/governor .



Matt Dralle



Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551

925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle(at)matronics.com Email

http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft

_________________
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Matronics Email List Administrator

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