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gregnk8(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:15 am Post subject: Corvair engines

Thanks to everyone for your comments.No one really addressed the absence of nitriding and why it took so long but I spoke to the A&P that services my 172 and he was really surprised that anyone would have sold engines without nitrided cranks. Stay with certified engines he says to avoid these  self-professed experts who don't follow "best practices" in the industry and wait for an engine to fail to figure out what was obvious to any experienced A&P. 

One thing that bothered me but that I now think was just a setup is IP.  I don't want to encourage any kind of patent violations so I tried to contact Wynne and never got a response just like my other messages. This tells me taht all the hoopla over that is just BS. If anyone has evidence that they are doing something wrong, please pass it on because I'm pretty close to ordering one of their engines. 

Seems like Microsoft has good company in thinking that competition is wrong from some of the e-mails I  got.  I haven't seen any patent or anything on Wynne's site so I have to wonder how much of this is being directed by wyyne hismelf to protect his monopoly. If he really invented anything, wouldn't he have patented it especially since he seems to make so much money on the engines?



        Luggage? GPS? Comic books? 

  [quote][b]

Papa Foxtrot

Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Posts: 6

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:05 am Post subject: Re: Corvair engines

I think William's attitude is mainly driven by the number of times people have ripped him off - ordered parts, reversed engineered them and started selling on eBay.  If you follow the Corvair email list, you'll note that this happens every 3 or 4 months.  He probably does make a pretty good profit on a single engine, but, if you look at what it takes to run a business like his vs. the volume he's selling, then it's obvious that he ain't gettin' rich off this.  Note that none of the rip-off competitors have flourished even with their lack of development costs.



I don't know why he hasn't applied for patents on any of his original creations, other than to avoid giving more money to lawyers.  Even if you hold a patent, to enforce it requires giving even more money to lawyers.  Likely just not worth it to WW.



I think the nitriding issue didn't really arise until the Corvair found its way into high performance aircraft - KR's/601's.  The engine was so understressed in the Piet's, it wasn't a problem.  Nitriding was being discussed by WW and the Corvair list about the time cranks started breaking.  A better place to debate this would be on the Corvair list.  Realize that it would be a historical debate tho', as conventional wisdom now concurs with your A&P's opinion.  Just don't expect them to take an attack on WW kindly; even tho' there are several there that aren't too thrilled with his customer service performance.  FWIW, the scuttlebutt is that it's getting better.



IMO, if you want an off-the-shelf corvair conversion, then buy it from William.  Just don't expect to get it tomorrow.



Disclaimer - I have no connection to William Wynne.  Not even a customer as this point, but prob'ly will be in the near future.



 	  gregnk8(at)yahoo.com wrote: 	
		  Thanks to everyone for your comments.No one really addressed the absence of nitriding and why it took so long but I spoke to the A&P that services my 172 and he was really surprised that anyone would have sold engines without nitrided cranks. Stay with certified engines he says to avoid these  self-professed experts who don't follow "best practices" in the industry and wait for an engine to fail to figure out what was obvious to any experienced A&P. 

One thing that bothered me but that I now think was just a setup is IP.  I don't want to encourage any kind of patent violations so I tried to contact Wynne and never got a response just like my other messages. This tells me taht all the hoopla over that is just BS. If anyone has evidence that they are doing something wrong, please pass it on because I'm pretty close to ordering one of their engines. 

Seems like Microsoft has good company in thinking that competition is wrong from some of the e-mails I  got.  I haven't seen any patent or anything on Wynne's site so I have to wonder how much of this is being directed by wyyne hismelf to protect his monopoly. If he really invented anything, wouldn't he have patented it especially since he seems to make so much money on the engines?

crvsecretary

Joined: 18 Mar 2007
Posts: 38
Location: Naugatuck, CT

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:40 am Post subject: Corvair engines

Greg:

  

 Not to criticize your information source, but an A&P is NOT the final  authority in engine design or industry 'best practices'.  He has opinions  just like you and I, and with his training and background he is almost certainly  going to embrace the Conti-Lycomo-Saurus dinosaurs that are in our certified  airplanes.  It is this predisposition to anything new that has kept our  firewall-forward choices in the Dark Ages for so long.  For instance, how  many certificated Diamond Katanas were sold with the Rotax engine?  Not all  that many.  Why?  The established A&P crowd would not embrace  anything new!!  What is the dominant engine in the new Light Sport  designs?  Rotax !  It appears to me a lot of A&P's are going to be  brought into the realm of LSA's kicking and screaming if they want to work in  this part of aviation.

  

 OK, what is nitriding?  It is a case-hardening of the  crankshaft.  A hard shell a couple of thousands thick.  Is it a good  idea?  Sure, why not...but we'll let the engine designers answer  that.  Is it absolutly necessary for every aviation engine?   No....look at all the early Corvair conversions and most any other auto  conversion engine.  I'm not convinced nitriding is the magic bullet to any  crankshaft breakage issue.

  

 Finally, with regard to patents....do you have any idea how expensive it is  to get a patent?  Lawyers can only LEGALLY 'hold themselves out' (legal  term there) as specialists in only two areas of law: Admiralty Law (The Law of  the Seas) and Patent Law.  I can assure you these guys do Not Work  Cheap.  I don't see a cost/benefit equasion working out here in favor of  patent exploration, not to mention the issuance of a patent.

  

 Wynne holding a monopoly?  I don't see it.  If you want the  benefits of his development activities, buy his product.  

  

 Or go it alone.

  

 Tracy Smith

 601XL tail, working on wings

  

  

  

 In a message dated 8/2/2007 12:16:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,  gregnk8(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Thanks    to everyone for your comments.No one really addressed the absence of nitriding    and why it took so long but I spoke to the A&P that services my 172 and he    was really surprised that anyone would have sold engines without nitrided    cranks. Stay with certified engines he says to avoid these     self-professed experts who don't follow "best practices" in the industry and    wait for an engine to fail to figure out what was obvious to any experienced    A&P. 

One thing that bothered me but that I now think was just a setup    is IP.  I don't want to encourage any kind of patent violations so I    tried to contact Wynne and never got a response just like my other messages.    This tells me taht all the hoopla over that is just BS. If anyone has evidence    that they are doing something wrong, please pass it on because I'm pretty    close to ordering one of their engines. 

Seems like Microsoft has good    company in thinking that competition is wrong from some of the e-mails I    got.  I haven't seen any patent or anything on Wynne's site so I have to    wonder how much of this is being directed by wyyne hismelf to protect his    monopoly. If he really invented anything, wouldn't he have patented it    especially since he seems to make so much money on the  engines? 	




AOL.com.

  [quote][b]

_________________
Zenith 601XL N458XL (reserved)
Naugatuck, CT
Tail Complete; working on wings

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:40 am Post subject: Corvair engines

 	  Quote: 	
		    surprised that anyone would have sold engines without nitrided cranks 

 
	


Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe the Jabiru cranks are nitrided

either. According to the manual the cam and cam journals are. Not sure about

the Rotax.

 

-- Craig

Papa Foxtrot

Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Posts: 6

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:04 am Post subject: Re: Corvair engines

 	  Papa Foxtrot wrote: 	
		  Nitriding was being discussed by WW and the Corvair list about the time cranks started breaking. 	


I read that after I typed it and didn't like the sound of it.  It's not like cranks were snapping left and right.  I know of only a couple of reported in-flight failures - not that I'm an "authority" on the subject.  Mark Langford's was the most "famous"; mainly due to his penchant for putting everything on his web site.  IIRC, even Mark allowed that his failure might have been caused by incorrect prop indexing.  He's now "flying the pee out of" a 3100cc that he built from the pieces of his broken motor.  Dif'rent case, crank(nitrided of course) and new internal wear parts, but most of the rest from his ill-fated first motor.  I thinks Mark's proven that the 'vair is a tough little motor.

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:51 pm Post subject: Corvair engines

Greg-

     You have to realize that  Corvairs weren't designed with flight in mind. Nevertheless, I believe nitriding  makes sense. I base my statement on conversations with people that locally  build NASCARs and top fuel dragsters. 

     What doesn't make sense to any  of these experts or myself is why you would want to weaken the crank with an  undercut radius. The only structurally positive  effect you can get is if the radius is rolled in from the OEM. 

     I tend to agree with other  Corvair builders- some "Fixes" are well founded, and some are knee-jerk  reactions to current problems. 

     This is EXPERIMENTAL aviation.  YOU have to choose what expert's advice you agree with. Once again, I emphasize  YOU. If you want a warranty and a guarantee, buy a Wichita product.

                                           do not archive

 Bill Naumuk

HDS Fuse/Corvair

Townville, Pa

 [quote]   ---

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:45 pm Post subject: Corvair engines

They break to. 

  

 On a side note, I had a Chevy 4.3lL v 6 and I broke the crank. I then went  and installed a new crank and wouldn't you know it guess what? You guessed it I  broke another crank in the exact same place. I later found out what the cause  was and it was the harmonic balancer. The point is that the more corvair's that  get into the air the chances of one failing increases. It is our responsibility  to find a fix for the problem and let everyone know what we find out. William  has his faults but what he is trying to do is help us build the safest auto  conversion out there and I for one will be helping get corvair's in the air and  I am doing it with a lot of people telling me why I shouldn't. I'm glad the  Wright brothers didn't listen to the doubters either.

  

 Jeff 

  	  Quote: 	
		  This is EXPERIMENTAL aviation. YOU have to choose what    expert's advice you agree with. Once again, I emphasize YOU. If you want a    warranty and a guarantee, buy a Wichita  product. 	


 

  



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cbaron66

Joined: 17 May 2007
Posts: 16

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:16 am Post subject: Re: Corvair engines

I don't have a dog in this fight but, have you ever noticed how much emotion there is on both sides of the Corvair fence? I find this ironic because every type of training you will ever get in aviation requires you to remove emotion from the decision making processes. Just my .o2

PatrickW

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:55 am Post subject: Re: Corvair engines

Can you tell if a crank has been nitrided by looking at it?



Fresh from the Nitrider's shop.  Paperwork says it is Nitrided.



But how do you *know*...?



Patrick

601XL/Corvair

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:05 am Post subject: Corvair engines

 	  Quote: 	
		   Can you tell if a crank has been nitrided by looking at it?


	


Well, fresh from the shop mine was covered with a fine "ash" that I had to

remove with WD-40 and ultra-fine sand paper.



-- Craig

gboothe5(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:12 am Post subject: Corvair engines

Factory nitrided cranks have an "ampersand" stamp on the end. I don't know

if your machinist would have followed suit.



Gary Boothe 

Cool, CA 

601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done, 

Tail done, wings done, working on c-section

--

Diogenes

Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 1

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:13 am Post subject: Re: Corvair engines

Unless they've already polished the journals, they should have a dull gray appearance.  Check out the fourth picture down on http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/corvair/phoenix/.  Otherwise, I guess you'll have to take their word for it...



 	  PatrickW wrote: 	
		  Can you tell if a crank has been nitrided by looking at it?



Fresh from the Nitrider's shop.  Paperwork says it is Nitrided.



But how do you *know*...?

crvsecretary

Joined: 18 Mar 2007
Posts: 38
Location: Naugatuck, CT

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:34 am Post subject: Corvair engines

Find an area that you can safely scratch with the corner of a file.   If you can file a (tiny) groove into the metal, it is NOT nitrided.  If the  file glances off, it is hard and you got your money's worth.

  

  

 In a message dated 8/3/2007 12:57:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,  pwhoyt(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Zenith-List message posted by: "PatrickW" <pwhoyt(at)yahoo.com>



Can    you tell if a crank has been nitrided by looking at it?



Fresh from the    Nitrider's shop.  Paperwork says it is Nitrided.



But how do you    *know*...?



Patrick

601XL/Corvair





Read this topic    online    here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=127340#127340bsp;    -->  ======================



	


 

  



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_________________
Zenith 601XL N458XL (reserved)
Naugatuck, CT
Tail Complete; working on wings

raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:35 am Post subject: Corvair engines

I thought nitriding increased the hardness of the surface. Could it be 

tested for hardness?



Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN



"Hope for the best,

but prepare for the worst."



do not archive

---

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:06 pm Post subject: Corvair engines

I have talked to a couple of nitriders and common practice is to nitride  batches of 10. But they take a bad crank and cut it into 5 or 6 pieces then put  one of the pieces in the batch they are going to nitrite. When the batch is  finished the cut the scrap piece and measure the depth of the nitriting to  insure it was deep enough. A crank should never be nitrited and then ground it  should be done before. When the crank comes back it will like it is burnt and be  really dusty. You should then take it to a machine shop and have it polished and  checked for true again as 10% of the cranks that get nitriting warp. And you  should never ever take a file to a journal to see if it scratches, the nitriters  know what they are doing and you will know if it has been done just by looking  at it. If you send a clean shiny one in you will be amazed at what you get back.  And as for the list member that said we shouldn't be passionate about what we  are doing I totally disagree. I love what I do and the day I become complacent  about it is the day I find something else to do. My passion shows in my work.  Just my 02

  

 Jeff

  	  Quote: 	
		  I    thought nit riding increased the hardness of the surface. Could it be    

tested for hardness?

	


 

  



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leinad

Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 283
Location: Central Virginia

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:48 pm Post subject: Re: Corvair engines

I agree with Patrick that there is room for suspicion when having work of this type done.  It isn't an "either or" proposition.  It's a matter of quality, and how do we the uninitiated have of telling if it's a good job, to the proper depth and hardness or not.  Case in point, when I got my crankshaft back from the nitride shop (same shop WW uses) it looked just like the other posters describe, ash covered with a black burned appearance under the ash.  When I put the crank on the lathe to polish it up and test it for straightness oil actually spun from the oil passages.  So I had to wonder, how "heat treated" could it be if it didn't even get hot enough to burn the oil out?  Well at least I know it's straight.

Dan ( 601XL/Corvair from Plans )



 	  Quote: 	
		  Can you tell if a crank has been nitrided by looking at it? 



Fresh from the Nitrider's shop. Paperwork says it is Nitrided. 



But how do you *know*...? 



Patrick 

601XL/Corvair

_________________
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine

Kevin Bonds

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 171
Location: Nashville, Tn

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:58 pm Post subject: Corvair engines

Greg Please don’t take offense to what I am about to say but, from the content of your email I can tell that you are new to the Corvair movement. William has gotten no money from me, besides the cost of a conversion manual. I am not a friend of his. I am also a real person. If you had been looking in on the goings on, over the last several years, I doubt you would feel the same way. There is a lot of history behind the corvaircraft. It is easy to look in on this, at this late stage, and judge. But let me assure you that there are a lot of really smart people involved with the movement that didn’t think that nitriding was necessary—and it wasn’t for about 45 years, give or take. The engine has evolved into a more powerful, therefore more demanding, powerplant. Once it became apparent the the fatigue life of the crank was being pushed to the limit it was quickly nipped in the bud (Mark Langford was the driving force, but William acted very fast and took the helm)  I would take what you’re A&P said with a grain of salt. This has been an ongoing process, and expense and complexity have always been important considerations. William has had his faults, but a lack of consideration of safety has ABSOLUTELY NOT been one of them. Only those who have witnessed first hand the on going R&D, know the extent to which that last statement is true. In my opinion “the other guys” are a gamble. I know exactly what to expect from William—good and not-so good (historically long wait).   

     

Kevin Bonds  

Nashville TN  

601XL Plans building.  

http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds  

   

do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE   

     

   

    

   

  

        

  

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg Kendall

 Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 12:13 PM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Corvair engines  

  

   

Thanks to everyone for your comments.No one really addressed the absence of nitriding and why it took so long but I spoke to the A&P that services my 172 and he was really surprised that anyone would have sold engines without nitrided cranks. Stay with certified engines he says to avoid these  self-professed experts who don't follow "best practices" in the industry and wait for an engine to fail to figure out what was obvious to any experienced A&P. 

 One thing that bothered me but that I now think was just a setup is IP.  I don't want to encourage any kind of patent violations so I tried to contact Wynne and never got a response just like my other messages. This tells me taht all the hoopla over that is just BS. If anyone has evidence that they are doing something wrong, please pass it on because I'm pretty close to ordering one of their engines. 

 Seems like Microsoft has good company in thinking that competition is wrong from some of the e-mails I got.  I haven't seen any patent or anything on Wynne's site so I have to wonder how much of this is being directed by wyyne hismelf to protect his monopoly. If he really invented anything, wouldn't he have patented it especially since he seems to make so much money on the engines?  

        

  

Luggage? GPS? Comic books?    	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
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       [quote][b]

_________________
KevinBonds
Nashville, TN
Plans-building Zenith CH601XL w/Corvair Power
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds

PatrickW

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:33 pm Post subject: Re: Corvair engines

I've seen exactly one crankshaft in my entire life.  The one I personally got from a '67 Corvair.



I'm learning a lot here, doing everything as careful as I can and listening to what other people with more experience say they've successfully done.



I took my crankshaft to the machine shop for magnaflux/tapping/regrind and nitriding & polishing.  After about a week the machine shop called me and said the machine work was done, and they'd nitride it as soon as they filled out a full batch for the nitride process.  The guy said that nitriding was expensive and they liked to wait until they have several crankshafts that they could do in the same batch.



Fine with me - no hurry - I've planned ahead and have plenty of other stuff to do.  I called them about a month later and they said "it's ready, come get it".



The crank was wrapped in a clear plastic bag, supported on a thick foam pad, and in a tough cardboard box sealed with plastic straps.  I opened the box & looked at the crank and put a mic on it to measure for the regrind, which checked out fine.



The crank was clean and oiled, presumably to prevent rust.  Paperwork said both "nitride" and "polish".  I have to take them at their word that it was indeed nitrided.  Looking at it, I can't tell one way or another.  My gut feeling say's it's fine, and I'm going to go with it, but I'm one of those guys who tries to know with 100% certainty, and sometimes that just isn't possible.



I *think* I remember my crank having kind of a "goldish yellowish" tint to it when I pulled it out of the junkyard engine.  Probably from the oil?  Now it's more of a darker gray color.  Not sure if that's from nitriding, or from a good cleaning.



Pretty sure it's fine.  Almost certain, the more I think about it.  Just jotting down what I'm thinking about - maybe it'll help the next guy to know what to expect. 



Patrick

601XL/Corvair

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:40 pm Post subject: Corvair engines

The oil is put on the crank after the process to keep it from  rusting.

  	  Quote: 	
		  When I    put the crank on the lathe to polish it up and test it for straightness oil    actually spun from the oil passages.  So I had to wonder, how "heat    treated" could it be if it didn't even get hot enough to burn the oil    out?  Well at least I know it's straight.

	


 

  



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leinad

Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 283
Location: Central Virginia

Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: Corvair engines

That would have to be a pretty strange process given that the outside of the crank was dry.



 	  Quote: 	
		  The oil is put on the crank after the process to keep it from rusting. 

Quote: 

When I put the crank on the lathe to polish it up and test it for straightness oil actually spun from the oil passages. So I had to wonder, how "heat treated" could it be if it didn't even get hot enough to burn the oil out? Well at least I know it's straight.

_________________
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine

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