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gaman(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:35 am Post subject: Suzuki 1.3 DOC 16V

Rick,

     The Jabiru folks are real picky in the prop dept.The prop adapter sets it back about 4 in.I will inquire about an extension and see what they have to say.They want only a wood prop,something about vibrations that cause the flywheel bolts to loosen.Ivo told me no can do for this engine.

         I'll get back to you soon as I contact Jabiru

 Thanks G.Aman

                           

Richard Girard <jindoguy(at)gmail.com> wrote:[quote] Gary, Have you tried an extension to get the prop a little further from the wing and pod? You'd have to check with the Jabiru folks to see if the bearings can handle the extra leverage the extension  adds to all the usual prop forces, but if can be used, it might help reduce your noise level. 



Rick



do not archive



On 8/12/07, gary aman <gaman(at)att.net (gaman(at)att.net)> wrote:[quote] Dan,

   There may be others who have a jabiru mounted on their Kolb,but I for one do not recommend it.It is a fine engine and runs sweetly with super fuel economy easy starting hot or cold,but turning a direct drive 3000 rpm propeller in a Kolb's wing wash produces more noise than you can  control.You will not believe the lengths I have gone to  trying to isolate the cabin from this din.Any geared option would serve you better.Keeping the prop rpm under 2200 or 2300rpm makes a big difference.A geared engine w/3.47-1 would be my choice. [quote][b]

gaman(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 12:29 pm Post subject: Suzuki 1.3 DOC 16V

I believe you have the best of both worlds in a rock solid engine and a slow turning large disc .You and they should be very happy together.Have they found a way to drive off of the big end of the shaft? I've built and raced VW s back in the 70's and have high regard for them.                                                                      Richard & Martha Neilsen <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net> wrote:[quote]       Rick

  

 It isn't a fluke. High RPM direct drive  engines on Kolbs just don't perform very well. You can add extensions which I  did with my direct drive VW to cut noise or add power but it really  didn't help anything. John W had a Jabiru and New Kolb tried them for  a while but they don't recommend them any more. In England where the 912  hasn't been certified they don't have a choice. The horsepower to weight  figure sounds great but it is thrust that moves airplanes and high RPM props  just don't produce thrust as efficiently as low RPM props. I hear people say  that it works better on higher speed airplanes which maybe true but world war II  airplanes used reduction drives on V12s and radial engines. I don't consider  WWII aircraft slow so there must  have been some advantage for them  too.

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC 

  

  

 [quote]   ---

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:28 pm Post subject: Suzuki 1.3 DOC 16V

Gary

  

 I'm very happy with the current setup which drives  the prop off the pulley end of the VW crank. It would seem that it would be  better to drive the prop off the flywheel end but it isn't done very often. The  current setup is smooth and works so well that I would wouldn't fix it. I  will leave it so some one else to sort out a redrive on the flywheel end  assuming that would really be better. I might switch to a gear drive if it was  light and smooth enough. but I would need proof it is better. 

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

 [quote]   ---

gaman(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:17 pm Post subject: Suzuki 1.3 DOC 16V

Just thought on a pusher,the pointy end of the engine would be forward and the bell housing mounting points make a solid attach for redrive system,just a thought.

   GAman



Richard & Martha Neilsen <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net> wrote:[quote]     Gary

  

 I'm very happy with the current setup which drives  the prop off the pulley end of the VW crank. It would seem that it would be  better to drive the prop off the flywheel end but it isn't done very often. The  current setup is smooth and works so well that I would wouldn't fix it. I  will leave it so some one else to sort out a  redrive on the flywheel end  assuming that would really be better. I might switch to a gear drive if it was  light and smooth enough. but I would need proof it is better. 

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

 [quote]   ---

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:16 pm Post subject: Suzuki 1.3 DOC 16V

Gary, Rick, all, Check out Great Plains Aircraft, they have redrives for both ends of the VW.



http://www.greatplainsas.com/gpasproducts.html



Rick

 

do not archive



On 8/12/07, gary aman <gaman(at)att.net (gaman(at)att.net)> wrote:[quote] Just thought on a pusher,the pointy end of the engine would be forward and the bell housing mounting points make a solid attach for redrive system,just a thought.

   GAman



Richard & Martha Neilsen < NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net (NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net)> wrote:[quote]      Gary

  

 I'm very happy with the current setup which drives  the prop off the pulley end of the VW crank. It would seem that it would be  better to drive the prop off the flywheel end but it isn't done very often. The  current setup is smooth and works so well that I would wouldn't fix it. I  will leave it so some one else to sort out a  redrive on the flywheel end  assuming that would really be better. I might switch to a gear drive if it was  light and smooth enough. but I would need proof it is better. 

   

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

 [quote]    ---

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:32 pm Post subject: Suzuki 1.3 DOC 16V

Rick 

  

 Check it out yourself. The only redrive they sell  is the Valley drive which I own. They sell a direct "rear drive" and a cheap  drive set up but they are still direct drive. The guy that made Big Lars redrive  made a flywheel chain drive and had previously made a belt arrangement that  drove off the flywheel end that had a shaft to a prop flange on the pulley end.  Also there is a web site that sells a gear redrive made in Australia for the VW  but no one here is flying one. Is it real? I go with what I know  works.

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

  

 [quote]   ---

David Lucas

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 79
Location: Europe. based Amsterdam NL

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 12:11 am Post subject: Re: Suzuki 1.3 DOC 16V

There's a geared re-drive available from an Australian outfit which might fit the bill for your VW engine. See http://www.homebuilt-aviation.com/components.htm for a few pictures etc. They used to sell it as a seperate item in the past. Guess they still do.

David.

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:57 am Post subject: Suzuki 1.3 DOC 16V

In England where the 912  hasn't been  certified they don't have a choice. >>

  

 Hi Rick,

  

 Where did you get that idea.?  There are  plenty of  912 engines in microlights over here. None on Kolbs though.  Perhaps that is what you meant.

  

 Pat

  

 do not archive

   [quote][b]

captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:25 am Post subject: Suzuki 1.3 DOC 16V

Hi Richard

The only thing I don't like in the GP motor is the belt driven design. Its a personal preference, as I have been told that they are as reliable as the steel drives. But still I rather have metal transferring the power via a shock absorber.

I am not sure if there is any metal gear box for the VW conversion, but I would certainly go for one if there was. The Rotax 912s will have no advantage over a VW with a metal gear box similar to an SPG-2 drive. Rotax has a big advantage over a Suzuki DOHC because of weight for the total package.

I have not flown my project yet so I can't say if there is a performance penalty in comparison, but I am sure there will be none with a VW powered unit,  because of the lower weight, and with the GP motor you will have way more HP than even the Suzuki 1.3 DOHC.

I can always throttle back is my motto, or derate a motor. But if it ain't there, then I ain't got it.  

Ron

===========================



---- Richard Girard <jindoguy(at)gmail.com> wrote: 



=============

Gary, Rick, all, Check out Great Plains Aircraft, they have redrives for

both ends of the VW.



http://www.greatplainsas.com/gpasproducts.html



Rick



do not archive



On 8/12/07, gary aman <gaman(at)att.net> wrote:

[quote]

 Just thought on a pusher,the pointy end of the engine would be forward and

 the bell housing mounting points make a solid attach for redrive system,just

 a thought.

    GAman



 *Richard & Martha Neilsen <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net>* wrote:



 Gary



 I'm very happy with the current setup which drives the prop off the pulley

 end of the VW crank. It would seem that it would be better to drive the prop

 off the flywheel end but it isn't done very often. The current setup is

 smooth and works so well that I would wouldn't fix it. I will leave it so

 some one else to sort out a redrive on the flywheel end assuming that would

 really be better. I might switch to a gear drive if it was light and smooth

 enough. but I would need proof it is better.



 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



 ---

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:39 am Post subject: Suzuki 1.3 DOC 16V

Ron



In theory I agree with you I would prefer a gear drive. When I first got my 

cog belt drive I complained to the guys at Valley about the vibration. They 

had some vibration with their wood props but much less than I had with the 

relatively heavy PowerFin. The have been working for years on something that 

would dampen the harmonic resonance of the VW engine. I know they tried a 

few rubber dampeners and later a sprag clutch with less than desirable 

results with their cog belt drives. Finally they came out with the one way 

slipping belt system that they are also using on their V twin engine. I have 

some concern about the life of the belts as I see belt shavings on my engine 

case but there isn't any visible wear on the belts. Also the wear indicator 

on the drive doesn't show anything after the 15 hours I have put on them. 

They sent me a set of belts that they had run for app. 5 hours so that I 

wouldn't have to do the after run in adjustment while on the way to Oshkosh. 

They have run the belts 100+ hours so far on their air boat so they should 

last that long and there test bed airplane is building hours every day. I 

think they put 10 hours that drive/plane just at Oshkosh.



Sorry I got carried away but my point is a redrive needs to be tuned to a 

engine to get smooth operation. My redrive is a series 3 drive and is the 

result of considerable work that is very likely needed on a gear drive unit. 

Rotax has the opportunity to use a considerable development budget to tune 

their redrive for their engines and just in the last year or so developed 

the slipper clutch for the 912S engine.



To put a SPG-2 drive on a VW might be easy but maybe not? What is the weight 

on the redrive? What ratios are available in the 1.6 to 1.7 area? What does 

the drive cost? Do they have a drive shaft and a mounting adapter for the 

VW? Do they have a dampener built in the drive? Do they offer different 

dampeners that would allow tuning for the VW or even your Suzuki.



Good luck on that project. We need Rotax alternatives to force Rotax into a 

better pricing structure. In fact every one prices new engines around Rotax 

prices.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

---

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:43 am Post subject: Suzuki 1.3 DOC 16V

The Rotax 912s will have no advantage over a VW with a metal gear box 

similar to an SPG-2 drive.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Ron


	


Ron:



Where did you get that info?



Have you flown the 912ULS and VW with gear box to come to a valid 

conclusion, or just pulled that one out of your fourth point of contact?



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 12:22 pm Post subject: Suzuki 1.3 DOC 16V

Ron, Where the 912 has an advantage over the VW is weight, about 60 lb. worth. Those Austrian engineers went to great lengths to keep the engine as light as possible. And if your talking about the 912S your giving up 20 HP, too. 

I like VW's a lot and as a child of the 60's I've owned my share. I even owned a "Thing", and the Vanagon is on my favorite vehicle list since my son looped one on Hwy 80 with me sleeping in the back, but I've walked into VW parts depts carrying the latest broken bit and singing the "Volkswagen, does it again" commercial jingle too many times. Maybe all the development work has solved some of the problems, but I've lost the #3 exhaust valve head on type 1, type 3, and type 4 engines and they don't run worth a darn on three cylinders. 



Rick



On 8/13/07, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>

  The Rotax 912s will have no advantage over a VW with a metal gear box

similar to an SPG-2 drive. 



 	  Quote: 	
		   Ron


	


Ron:



Where did you get that info?



Have you flown the 912ULS and VW with gear box to come to a valid

conclusion, or just pulled that one out of your fourth point of contact?



 

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:49 pm Post subject: Suzuki 1.3 DOC 16V

Richard 

Why don't you call Vassily up there in Canada, he will be happy to talk to you. Mention to him that Ron from Arizona suggested that.

I have not weighed the SPG-2 I think its on the heavy side, I am estimating it to be around 30 pounds if not a bit more. It ain't light, it is about as tough as they get, its over built.



http://www.airtrikes.net/engines.shtml



Ron

========================

---- Richard & Martha Neilsen <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net> wrote: 



=============




Ron



In theory I agree with you I would prefer a gear drive. When I first got my 

cog belt drive I complained to the guys at Valley about the vibration. They 

had some vibration with their wood props but much less than I had with the 

relatively heavy PowerFin. The have been working for years on something that 

would dampen the harmonic resonance of the VW engine. I know they tried a 

few rubber dampeners and later a sprag clutch with less than desirable 

results with their cog belt drives. Finally they came out with the one way 

slipping belt system that they are also using on their V twin engine. I have 

some concern about the life of the belts as I see belt shavings on my engine 

case but there isn't any visible wear on the belts. Also the wear indicator 

on the drive doesn't show anything after the 15 hours I have put on them. 

They sent me a set of belts that they had run for app. 5 hours so that I 

wouldn't have to do the after run in adjustment while on the way to Oshkosh. 

They have run the belts 100+ hours so far on their air boat so they should 

last that long and there test bed airplane is building hours every day. I 

think they put 10 hours that drive/plane just at Oshkosh.



Sorry I got carried away but my point is a redrive needs to be tuned to a 

engine to get smooth operation. My redrive is a series 3 drive and is the 

result of considerable work that is very likely needed on a gear drive unit. 

Rotax has the opportunity to use a considerable development budget to tune 

their redrive for their engines and just in the last year or so developed 

the slipper clutch for the 912S engine.



To put a SPG-2 drive on a VW might be easy but maybe not? What is the weight 

on the redrive? What ratios are available in the 1.6 to 1.7 area? What does 

the drive cost? Do they have a drive shaft and a mounting adapter for the 

VW? Do they have a dampener built in the drive? Do they offer different 

dampeners that would allow tuning for the VW or even your Suzuki.



Good luck on that project. We need Rotax alternatives to force Rotax into a 

better pricing structure. In fact every one prices new engines around Rotax 

prices.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

---

Michael Sharp

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 118
Location: Oak Grove, MO (Kansas City)

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:50 am Post subject: Suzuki 1.3 DOC 16V

Unless something has changed, Vassili doesn't have an adapter for the VW.  I think Lar Contacted him about it a few months ago.

   

  Mike,

  Missouri

  Zuki 1.3...Kolb Mark III

  Do not archive



Ron <captainron1(at)cox.net> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: Ron 



Richard 

Why don't you call Vassily up there in Canada, he will be happy to talk to you. Mention to him that Ron from Arizona suggested that.

I have not weighed the SPG-2 I think its on the heavy side, I am estimating it to be around 30 pounds if not a bit more. It ain't light, it is about as tough as they get, its over built.



http://www.airtrikes.net/engines.shtml



Ron

========================

---- Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote:  



=============

--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" 



Ron



In theory I agree with you I would prefer a gear drive. When I first got my 

cog belt drive I complained to the guys at Valley about the vibration. They 

had some vibration with their wood props but much less than I had with the 

relatively heavy PowerFin. The have been working for years on something that 

would dampen the harmonic resonance of the VW engine. I know they tried a 

few rubber dampeners and later a sprag clutch with less than desirable 

results with their cog belt drives. Finally they came out with the one way 

slipping belt system that they are also using on their V twin engine. I have 

some concern about the life of the belts as I see belt shavings on my engine 

case but there isn't any visible wear on the belts. Also the wear indicator 

on the drive doesn't show anything after the 15 hours I  have put on them. 

They sent me a set of belts that they had run for app. 5 hours so that I 

wouldn't have to do the after run in adjustment while on the way to Oshkosh. 

They have run the belts 100+ hours so far on their air boat so they should 

last that long and there test bed airplane is building hours every day. I 

think they put 10 hours that drive/plane just at Oshkosh.



Sorry I got carried away but my point is a redrive needs to be tuned to a 

engine to get smooth operation. My redrive is a series 3 drive and is the 

result of considerable work that is very likely needed on a gear drive unit. 

Rotax has the opportunity to use a considerable development budget to tune 

their redrive for their engines and just in the last year or so developed 

the slipper clutch for the 912S engine.



To put a SPG-2 drive on a VW might be easy but maybe not? What is the weight 

on the redrive? What ratios are available in the 1.6 to 1.7  area? What does 

the drive cost? Do they have a drive shaft and a mounting adapter for the 

VW? Do they have a dampener built in the drive? Do they offer different 

dampeners that would allow tuning for the VW or even your Suzuki.



Good luck on that project. We need Rotax alternatives to force Rotax into a 

better pricing structure. In fact every one prices new engines around Rotax 

prices.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

---

_________________
The air up there in the clouds is very pure and fine...And why shouldn't it be?-
--It is the same the angels breathe.
Mark Twain,
Roughing it' 1886

Mike

captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:28 am Post subject: Suzuki 1.3 DOC 16V

Hi

John, Richard



I looked at the GP site and at their best high HP motor, which iirc puts out around 120hp. Even with the increased weight it seems to me that the p/w ratio would favor the VW powered motor. 

Don't get me wrong if I had the money I'd buy a 912s or a 914.

I still like the big Hirth 2 cycle though, and now I regret not buying it back a few years ago when one of the Listers pointed me to one for around 2.5K.



Ron (Arizona)



=============

Ron, Where the 912 has an advantage over the VW is weight, about 60 lb.

worth. Those Austrian engineers went to great lengths to keep the engine as

light as possible. And if your talking about the 912S your giving up 20 HP,

too.

I like VW's a lot and as a child of the 60's I've owned my share. I even

owned a "Thing", and the Vanagon is on my favorite vehicle list since my son

looped one on Hwy 80 with me sleeping in the back, but I've walked into VW

parts depts carrying the latest broken bit and singing the "Volkswagen, does

it again" commercial jingle too many times. Maybe all the development work

has solved some of the problems, but I've lost the #3 exhaust valve head on

type 1, type 3, and type 4 engines and they don't run worth a darn on three

cylinders.



Rick



On 8/13/07, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 

   The Rotax 912s will have no advantage over a VW with a metal gear box

 similar to an SPG-2 drive.



 > Ron



 Ron:



 Where did you get that info?



 Have you flown the 912ULS and VW with gear box to come to a valid

 conclusion, or just pulled that one out of your fourth point of contact?



 john h

 mkIII


	




-- 

Rick Girard

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.



--

kugelair.com

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:00 pm Post subject: Suzuki 1.3 DOC 16V

Rick

  

 I'm just curious how you figure that a VW is 60  Lbs. heaver than a 912? My VW with is maybe 10lbs more. Now I took steps to  save weight any where I could but I didn't cut 50 lbs off. If your figuring  the stock generator and fan into this weight maybe.

  

 Also I had my share of engine problems in my old  beetle and bus but never had a valve brakeage problem. They are a bit sensitive  to valve adjustments and I just don't like adjusting them so I installed  hydraulic lifters in my engine. Also there isn't much stock VW about the  engines they build today. You do have to use a bit of common sense about sitting  on the ground with the engine running and no cooling air flowing over the  engine.

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered  MKIIIC    

 [quote]   ---

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:09 pm Post subject: Suzuki 1.3 DOC 16V

Rick, I can't find the list of engine weights I have in some remote subdirectory, so I used this list from Great Plains Aircraft. I also checked what the AeroVee folks claim.



 http://www.greatplainsas.com/specsfd.html

[url=http://www.sonexaircraft.com/eshop/cart.php?target=product&product_id=16424&category_id 68]http://www.sonexaircraft.com/eshop/cart.php?target=product&product_id=16424&category_id 68 [/url]



Start with the best weight at 160lb. then add a redrive, and you're at 180 to 190 installed. Compare this to the 128 to 134lb. (Rotax Installation Manual page 7-2) for a 912 and even if you get real generous on the weight of the sump tank and lines you're still at a least difference of 40lb. and a max of 60. 



Rick



On 8/17/07, Richard & Martha Neilsen <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net (NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net)> wrote:[quote]        Rick

  

 I'm just curious how you figure that a VW is 60  Lbs. heaver than a 912? My VW with is maybe 10lbs more. Now I took steps to  save weight any where I could but I didn't cut 50 lbs off. If your figuring  the stock generator and fan into this weight maybe.

  

 Also I had my share of engine problems in my old  beetle and bus but never had a valve brakeage problem. They are a bit sensitive  to valve adjustments and I just don't like adjusting them so I installed  hydraulic lifters in my engine. Also there isn't much stock VW about the  engines they build today. You do have to use a bit of common sense about sitting  on the ground with the engine running and no cooling air flowing over the  engine.

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered  MKIIIC    

 [quote]   ---

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:07 pm Post subject: Suzuki 1.3 DOC 16V

That's interesting. You do have to be careful how  you build a VW engine too keep it light. You also have to be  careful what weights you pick for comparison. I see you figured 20-30 lbs  for the redrive when my redrive is 9 lbs and all the listed engines have a  slick magneto (under powered, expensive and heavy) mine doesn't. I have  seen a number of weights listed for the 912 Rotax and most realistic weights are  a bit higher than you indicate. Bottom line my MKIIIC with a full silver  coat paint, fully enclosed, all instruments, luggage trays, a bunch of patches  and radios weighed 598lbs empty weight wet (oil & unusable fuel) when I  redid the motor mount a few years ago. Seems like I even forgot to remove my  survival kit. This isn't light for a MKIIIC but there aren't too many 912  powered planes that are 60 lbs. lighter. In fact it seems like most  are about the same weight. I don't know how Rotax figures their weights and  the weight you came up with. Maybe they use some fairy dust on their  scales.

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

 [quote]   ---

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:18 am Post subject: Re: Suzuki 1.3 DOC 16V

Rick,



I have no idea what the installed weight of our 912UL is but our Allegro 2000 is about 50 lb. heavier than your MkIIIC w/ VW. Our Allegro is a very light S-LSA compared to most w/ 912ULS engines at about 750 lb. empty. Most of that extra weight is heavier airframe components.



Bottom line is your 598 lb empty weight is a good weight with plenty of power from a reliable engine that is cheap to maintain. Hard to beat.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

1planeguy(at)kilocharlie.
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:58 am Post subject: Suzuki 1.3 DOC 16V

I seem to remember Dennis Souder pulled a 912 install off the factory Slingshot and weighed it ready to run minus prop and it was something like 165?  (Shooting from memory here but I bet it’s in the archives…)  

   

Jeremy Casey  

   

   

   

--

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