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Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005

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cpayne(at)joimail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:42 am Post subject: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005

"Yaks" you say? Wait until Pappy sees this. Those are Nanchang CJ-6's flown by Jim "Pappy" Goolsby in lead and Craig Ekberg on wing. Craig's airplane has taken several SNF and Oshkosh awards.

  

  

 Craig Payne

 cpayne(at)joimail.com (cpayne(at)joimail.com)

  

  

 

  [quote][b]

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:16 am Post subject: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005

Ahhh…the discussion begins again! What came first the egg ( CJ-6) or the chicken ( YAK-1 from two societies so good a pirating and copying all? :>)) Vince, those are YAKs masquerading as CJ’s.  

Doc  

       

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Payne

 Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 5:41 AM

 To: yak-list

 Subject: Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005  

  

  

     

"Yaks" you say? Wait until Pappy sees this. Those are Nanchang CJ-6's flown by Jim "Pappy" Goolsby in lead and Craig Ekberg on wing. Craig's airplane has taken several SNF and Oshkosh awards.  

    

   

    

   

    

Craig Payne  

    

cpayne(at)joimail.com (cpayne(at)joimail.com)  

    

   

    

   

   	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List 	
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        [quote][b]

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:38 am Post subject: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005

On Aug 22, 2007, at 6:14 AM, Roger Kemp wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Ahhh…the discussion begins again! What came first the egg ( CJ-6)  

 or the chicken ( YAK-1 from two societies so good a pirating and  

 copying all? :>)) Vince, those are YAKs masquerading as CJ’s.


	


I am always amazed when people bring this up. If you have ever looked  

at a Yak-18A you will see that its construction is completely  

different from the construction of the CJ6A. The Yak-18A uses steel  

tubing for its main structure while the CJ6A is semi-monocoque. Wing  

airfoil section is different too. We could go on and on but the  

bottom line is that they are very different in their construction.

--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:30 am Post subject: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005

Ahhh....but...Grasshopper...was the 18A the chicken or was it the evolving

egg?

All said is true. The Chinese took a good design and made a great design,

well maybe not great but a more gooder design! :>))

Doc



--

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:15 pm Post subject: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005

On Aug 22, 2007, at 11:29 AM, Roger Kemp wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com>



 Ahhh....but...Grasshopper...was the 18A the chicken or was it the  

 evolving

 egg?

 All said is true. The Chinese took a good design and made a great  

 design,

 well maybe not great but a more gooder design! :>))


	


They are so different as to constitute a complete departure from  

where I sit but that is only the opinion of the designer of the CJ6A.



But one will find similarities in all aircraft with a similar mission  

profile and engine. If you want to make a fighter that is powered by  

a V-12 engine you are going to end up with something that looks a lot  

like a Yak-9/P-51/Bf-109/Hurricane/etc. Look at how many people  

mistook the Hawker Hurricane for the Spitfire.



My only wish is that people would actually go look at the differences  

for themselves rather than repeat hearsay.



--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

Dale

Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 178

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:34 pm Post subject: Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005

YAK 18A



 http://www.yak-aviation.com/18a_aircraft.html

 Dale

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:10 pm Post subject: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005

On Aug 22, 2007, at 2:34 PM, Dale wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 YAK 18A



  http://www.yak-aviation.com/18a_aircraft.html


	


Yes, the rumors abound about which came first. If the Chinese are to  

be believed, the CJ6A predates the Yak-18A.



But what inspired what is really not the issue. The issue is whether  

one is a "copy" of the other. The huge differences make is pretty  

clear that neither is a copy of the other.



--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:22 pm Post subject: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005

Brian,

Seems the Ukrainians are confused too. 

So sorry,

 Doc



--

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:51 pm Post subject: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005

In a message dated 8/22/2007 2:32:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  viperdoc(at)mindspring.com writes:

  

  

 The ONLY reason the CJ-6 has the same engine as the Yak is because the  planned engine that flew in the prototype (Czechoslovakian Doris B) turned out  to be a dud, along with its prop.  The Chinese went to the HS-6 for that  reason only.  Why design a new cowling when the one already designed  for the engine was working fine?  Lockheed didn't on the Connie  when they used the same engines that were on the Douglas' DC series.

  

 The heart of an aircraft is it's wing.  Its shape;  airfoil,  span, cord, dihedral, swipe, twist, and angle of attack.    The CJ's are all very different from any Yak.

  

 Its Not a Yak.

 Still joisting at windmills.

 Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

 [quote]-->    Yak-List message posted by: "Roger  Kemp"    <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com>



Ahhh....but...Grasshopper...was the 18A    the chicken or was it the evolving

egg?

All said is true. The Chinese    took a good design and made a great design,

well maybe not great but a more    gooder design! :>))

Doc



--

Dale

Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 178

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005

Using some logic one would have to ask. 

What aircraft did the Chinese ever design on their own? 

Where did the Chinese buy all their war stuff back then?

Would the USSR need to copy a Chinese design that simple 

and then take credit for it?

Last year China launched it's first sat.

I think they did invent fireworks.

steve.fox(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:14 pm Post subject: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005

Not to mention the-

seismograph

compass

the wheelbarrow

paper  and paper money

kites

steel

cast iron



and the list goes on and on and on including pasta



 



 



On Aug 22, 2007, at 6:52 PM, Dale wrote:

[quote]

I think they did invent fireworks. [b]

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:21 pm Post subject: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005

In a message dated 8/22/2007 8:16:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  steve.fox(at)mac.com writes:

  

  

 BLESS YOU MY SON!! 

 Pappy

  	  Quote: 	
		  

      Not to mention the-

      seismograph

   compass

   the    wheelbarrow

   paper     and paper money

   kites

   steel

   cast    iron

   

   and the list    goes on and on and on including pasta

   



   

      On Aug 22, 2007, at 6:52 PM, Dale wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		       

I think they did invent fireworks.



="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com



	
	


 

  



Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:05 pm Post subject: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005

On Aug 22, 2007, at 3:21 PM, viperdoc wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Brian,

 Seems the Ukrainians are confused too.


	


Why shouldn't they be? Why would they have more information than we  

do? Certainly there was precious little love lost or information  

transferred between the Chinese and the Soviets from about 1957 on. I  

suspect they did no more research than anyone here (besides Pappy) did.



You know, it is quite interesting that everyone wants to jump on the  

bandwagon to support their position. They point to other people who  

agree with them and say, "see!" That other people agree with you does  

not support your position. That other people disagree with you does  

not decrease the truth of your position.



One thing I do know: I have looked at a Yak-18A and I have looked at  

a CJ6A. I have looked at their various structures. They are *WAY*  

different airplanes. In addition I have spoke with Bushi Cheng, the  

designer of the CJ6A, who says that he did not copy the Yak-18A. OK,  

maybe he was lying to me but my eyes tell me they are very different  

aircraft.



So, frankly, it does not matter what the Ukranians say.



But I don't want anyone to take my word for it. I want people who  

wonder to go look at the aircraft and make up their own minds.



--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:21 pm Post subject: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005

On Aug 22, 2007, at 3:52 PM, Dale wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Using some logic one would have to ask.

 What aircraft did the Chinese ever design on their own?


	


Quite a few, actually. You ever read Aviation Week and Space  

Technology? OTOH, a search of on-line information should fill you in.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Where did the Chinese buy all their war stuff back then?


	


By the late 1950's China and the Soviet Union were no longer allies.  

It is one of the reasons China decided to create its own aircraft  

industry. They were ramping up to be independent of the Soviet Union  

because they thought they might have to fight the Soviet Union. You  

don't depend on your adversary for your military materiel.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Would the USSR need to copy a Chinese design that simple

 and then take credit for it?


	


Why does there seem to be this need to prove that one copied the  

other? I haven't seen anyone from either Russia or China claiming  

that one is a copy of the other. If you actually *look* at the  

aircraft you can see that they could only be considered "alike" from  

about 100'. Get up close and they are very different.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Last year China launched it's first sat.


	


Oh really? Please check your history. The Chinese set up their first  

satellite launch facility in 1957. If you are interested in  

additional information, consider these:



http://www.china.org.cn/english/SPORT-c/77178.htm



-or-



http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/launchpad/1921/facilities.htm



According to the Chinese they launched their first earth-orbiting  

satellite in 1970. Now I wasn't there and I haven't verified the  

veracity of the claims but they are consistent and they are probably  

pretty easily verified.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I think they did invent fireworks.


	


Again, this has nothing to do with whether the Yak-18A is a copy of  

the CJ6A or vice versa.



--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

Dale

Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 178

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:27 pm Post subject: Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005

Sorry for the response, I will stay out of it.

LawnDart

Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 64

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:07 am Post subject: Re: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005

[quote="cjpilot710(at)aol.com"]

Its Not a Yak.

[/quote]

I have to chuckle a bit here.  This issue of confusing CJs for Yaks if mostly your own (and your association's) doing.  Back in the day when the association was in it's infancy I brought up the point of why do you call it the Yak Pilot's Assocation - answer from the top at that time "no one knows what a CJ is."  Hmmm, I though one of the directives was to inform and educate the public, not misinform.   And so we arrive today with this issue...

dabear(at)damned.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:15 am Post subject: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005

Oh and the Chinese government must be confused as well.  Since the 

import documents of one of the CJ6A's I looked at purchasing a few years 

back had YAK-18 all over the documentation.  But then again, that is 

just their government being confused.

DaBear

Brian Lloyd wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 On Aug 22, 2007, at 3:21 PM, viperdoc wrote:

> 

>

> Brian,

> Seems the Ukrainians are confused too.

 Why shouldn't they be? Why would they have more information than we 

 do? Certainly there was precious little love lost or information 

 transferred between the Chinese and the Soviets from about 1957 on. I 

 suspect they did no more research than anyone here (besides Pappy) did.

 You know, it is quite interesting that everyone wants to jump on the 

 bandwagon to support their position. They point to other people who 

 agree with them and say, "see!" That other people agree with you does 

 not support your position. That other people disagree with you does 

 not decrease the truth of your position.

 One thing I do know: I have looked at a Yak-18A and I have looked at a 

 CJ6A. I have looked at their various structures. They are *WAY* 

 different airplanes. In addition I have spoke with Bushi Cheng, the 

 designer of the CJ6A, who says that he did not copy the Yak-18A. OK, 

 maybe he was lying to me but my eyes tell me they are very different 

 aircraft.

 So, frankly, it does not matter what the Ukranians say.

 But I don't want anyone to take my word for it. I want people who 

 wonder to go look at the aircraft and make up their own minds.

 -- 

 Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

 brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

 +1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

 I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

 — Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

 PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

 PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:31 am Post subject: Yaks at Sun-N-Fun 2005

On Aug 23, 2007, at 6:15 AM, DaBear wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Oh and the Chinese government must be confused as well.  Since the  

 import documents of one of the CJ6A's I looked at purchasing a few  

 years back had YAK-18 all over the documentation.  But then again,  

 that is just their government being confused.


	


And why should their government be any different than our government?  

Is it not the normal state for government bureaucracies to be  

confused? And their bureaucracy does not have the checks-and-balances  

that ours does (no elected officials looking to get re-elected to go  

bash the bureaucrats in exchange for your vote). I would think it  

more likely that the government officials found it much easier to  

refer to all the trainers as Yak-18A than to come up with completely  

different paperwork. After all, they looked the same to the  

bureaucrat so why make more work? The pilots and mechanics still did  

the right thing regardless of the printing on the paper. 



But who did what to whom and who wrote what when is not the real  

issue. The real issue is whether or not one aircraft is a copy of the  

other. All I can say is that, if you walk up to both aircraft you  

will see so many substantial differences that you cannot help but  

conclude that they are different airplanes. I have done so as has  

Pappy, Craig Payne, and a couple of other people (I forget who all  

was there at OSH that year -- it may have been the year that Bushi  

Cheng was there). It was *VERY* clear that the Yak-18A and the CJ6A  

were *VERY* different airplanes. On that basis and that basis alone I  

claim that it is not reasonable to claim that the CJ6A is a Yak-18A.



So, we have seen it with our own eyes and are not relying on anyone's  

(questionable) second-hand information. All I suggest is that the  

rest of you do the same and *THEN* make your own decision.



BTW, this seems to be a problem with some people who populate this  

list. They tend to side with this person or that person without every  

bothering to check the facts. And, no, pointing to one site on the  

Internet does not constitute checking facts as anyone can publish  

anything regardless of accuracy. (OTOH, looking up many disparate  

sources on the Internet can be a valuable adjunct to proper research.)



Oh, and I am doing some real research into lubricating oils to try to  

determine what I think the inlet and outlet oil temperature limits  

should be for our engines. I will satisfy myself and I will present  

the information here for your use. The purpose will be to provide  

information from which you can draw your own conclusions. You will be  

free to use or discard the information as you see fit.



--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

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