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fun last Saturday
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bmeyette

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 72
Location: Cornish, NH

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:11 am Post subject: fun last Saturday

Well written, Vince, and I agree with your sentiments  

brian  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

--

_________________
Brian Meyette, Cornish, NH

RV-7A QB tipup, supercharged Subaru STi engine, MT CS prop, all glass day/night/IFR panel, being built with solar and wind power

N432MM

http://brian76.mystarband.net/RV-7Ahome.htm

robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:23 am Post subject: fun last Saturday

[quote]This is one of many reasons I prefer the legal MINIMUM size N number on my planes. Also of note, part of my local “tour” for friends & guests is to fly around this beautiful ocean front point (North of Vandenberg, South of Big Sur). Of course this is also home to a Nuclear power plant so I tend to fly in a straight line and avoid any appearance of loitering. That being said half of all local flight training occurs within a mile or two of this plant. That includes hours of stalls, slow flight, standard & steep turn training. Often several aircraft at a time. RobinN413RV[b]

chuck(at)chuckdirect.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:43 am Post subject: fun last Saturday

You go  dude.  Couldn't have said it better myself.  Freedoms are eroding and  few seem to care.  Lots of men (and women) have died to protect those  freedoms.  Now little by little we're allowing the government to take 'em  under the guise of protecting us.  

 Chuck

  

 Certainly  our aircraft were NO threat to a nuclear power plant!

 [quote]   

    

Considering that the United States    of America is now home to 12,000,000 illegal immigrants who include a large    percentage of criminals, terrorists, uneducated  individuals, and other undesirables I    demand to know why Homeland Security is wasting time by detaining law abiding    citizens!?   

    

In closing I'd really like to see    the following actions from your office:   

    

1) Tell me what you are    doing, or will do in the very near future to keep law abiding pilots like    myself from having our name added to some data base kept in the bowels of some    Homeland Security office.    

2) Restructure Homeland    Security immediately to deal with the HUGE problem of illegal    immigration.  Otherwise Homeland    Security needs to be abolished since they seem to have no other real function    aside from harassing law abiding  citizens.[b]

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:44 am Post subject: Re: fun last Saturday

What's weird here is that the original message did NOT make it to the Web interface. Not sure why that is.



But to this point. You know, years ago when these rights were being proposed and taken away in the post-911 "ready-fire-aim" mentality, people who said this would be a problem were told, "hey, if you didn't do anything wrong, you don't have anything to worry about."



Kinda late now to change things.   This is what happens when a country is run by fear.



Lamentable, indeed. And entirely preventable. We just chose to give up our liberties.



Do not archive

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: fun last Saturday

 	  chuck(at)chuckdirect.com wrote: 	
		  

 Certainly  our aircraft were NO threat to a nuclear power plant!

 	




But this is the mistake we always make when the freedoms that get eroded are "ours." We basically say to people, "your fears are unfounded."



The whole point of terrorism isn't to destroy a country, it's to erode the sense of safety. That's what terror is. The government knows that too, that's why all the anti-terrorism crusade is such a show. The port security sucks. Why? Because although it's probably more important than any other gaping hole right now, the average person doesn't "see" it. They see airplanes.  So the big show is at the airport, while busses and trains -- more traditional targets of bombers -- have no such show going on.



In theory, VERY few of us are likely to be "victims" of terrorists.  They just want us to "think" we are and, usually, that's good enough. We'll take care of the rest.



The woman who called about the plane was afraid, thanks to the climate  in the country. Sure, we could waste time telling her her fears aren't real, but she's not going to believe it.



To me, it's really a "horse has already left the barn" situation. Politicians have played on the irrational fears of people just like that lady to get -- and stay -- in office. 



OTOH, keep in mind that it wasn't an airplane hitting a building that caused all this. It was a 99-cent boxcutter. Who knew that a handful of themt could be used to bring down two large buildings, put the world's greatest economy into a recession, and start a war that will kill an additional 3,500 people.



It's all so sad but it's hear to stay. The only way to stay out of the soup now is not to fly near nuke plants, I guess.

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 12:54 pm Post subject: fun last Saturday

A badge on the chest  and a gun on the hip makes ordinary people go insane....at least without a  lot of education and training.  Bureaucrats are equipped with both badge  and gun, at least symbolically, even if they are not physically present,  thus sane behavior is not to be expected in all cases.

  

 In this immediate  instance, I can say with certainty that nuclear plants do not have a "bird  watcher" job.  Certainly, if there is a plane that does loiter at low  elevation in the vicinity of the plant, they'll take notice as they apparently  did in this case.  (Speculation begins here) They probably picked up their  HS hotline and reported that a plane was loitering in the area of the plant at a  low altitude.  When asked to describe the plane, they responded that it had  an engine, tail and two wings.  Since you were next to land and you EXACTLY  met the description, you became a participant to a meeting with Officialdom  without a prior appointment.  Know this; you will make some gumshoe's daily  report as proof that they are busy averting "terrorism by small aircraft"  and that the world is safer because of their unstinting vigilance (or is that  vigilantism).  

  

 Of course, if you  were smuggling a monkey under your hat, they would have let you pass without  questioning.  Sweeeet, isn't it?

  

 Chuck Jensen 



  

 --

n395v

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:25 am Post subject: Re: fun last Saturday

 	  Quote: 	
		  In theory, VERY few of us are likely to be "victims" of terrorists. They just want us to "think" we are and, usually, that's good enough. We'll take care of the rest. 



The woman who called about the plane was afraid, thanks to the climate in the country. Sure, we could waste time telling her her fears aren't real, but she's not going to believe it. 



To me, it's really a "horse has already left the barn" situation. Politicians have played on the irrational fears of people just like that lady to get -- and stay -- in office. 



OTOH, keep in mind that it wasn't an airplane hitting a building that caused all this. It was a 99-cent boxcutter. Who knew that a handful of themt could be used to bring down two large buildings, put the world's greatest economy into a recession, and start a war that will kill an additional 3,500 people. 



It's all so sad but it's hear to stay. The only way to stay out of the soup now is not to fly near nuke plants, I guess.

	




As far apart as Bob and I are on the political spectrum I could not have said it better myself.



It is not terrorists I fear it is my own government.



All politicians spend all of their time maintaing power and none of their time resolving problems.



Do not archive

_________________
Milt

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:48 am Post subject: fun last Saturday

//As far apart as Bob and I are on the political spectrum I could not have

said it better myself.



Well, that's another story, the political labelling. Everyone has a need,

for some reason, to define people politically. Personally, I don't get it.

On some issues, I guess I'm a liberal... On some issues, I guess I'm a

conservative. Personally, I think most people are that way. Add it all up,

and we're in the middle. But the labelling is a first step in the

discrediting so that we won't actually have to engage in any sort of

intellectual discussion on the policies of this country while they're being

formed. 



I don't fear my government as much as I fear the stupidity of people who are

too enslaved to their political parties that demand ONE thought on

everything to have been concerned about it when their concern could have

made a difference. Politics in this country is far too much like a religion

for people.



It's not like people weren't warning us that this would happen. It's just

that they were, you know, "those" people. The ones that got labelled so we

didn't have to actually THINK about what we were doing when we were so

afraid that we were far too willing to  put a blowtorch to the constitution.



Put me down for a giant shoulder shrug.



Do not archive

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

tracy(at)rotaryaviation.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:09 am Post subject: fun last Saturday

Amen Bob.  

 Whether by design or just the way politics works, people who are out of the "mainstream"  are going to get their liberties taken away in a society where individual rights are not valued.  We tend to notice the loss of this particular liberty because flying puts us out of the mainstream but we totally ignore the injustice in areas where we  are mainstream.

  

 Wrong forum to elaborate on this but those who tend to be out of the mainstream in a lot of areas are in for some bad times.  The ones who conform are going to find themselves in an uncomfortable shrinking box but they figure that is a reasonable price to pay for security. 

  

 Getting rather cynical as I age, so I say a pox on all of us.  We always get the government we deserve.  Or as someone once said,  "People should get what they want, and I want them to get it good and hard." 

  

 Tracy Crook   (venting mode)

 Do Not Archive

 



 

  [quote]--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Collins" bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net  (bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net)



"But this is the mistake we always make when the freedoms that get eroded are "ours." We basically say to people, "your fears are unfounded.""

--------

Bob Collins

St. Paul, Minn. 

RV Builder's Hotline (free!)

http://rvhotline.expercraft.com



Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131441#131441



[b]

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:01 am Post subject: fun last Saturday

Milt wrote...



As far apart as Bob and I are on the political spectrum I could not have

said it better myself. It is not terrorists I fear it is my own

government. All politicians spend all of their time maintaing power and

none of their time resolving problems.

...and what little time they have left, they spend in the bathroom at

airports....



Do not archive

rv8ch

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Switzerland

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 11:47 am Post subject: fun last Saturday

Chuck Jensen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   ....and what little time they have left, they spend in the bathroom at

 airports....


	


..with a "wide stance".  



-- 

Mickey Coggins

http://www.rv8.ch/

#82007 finishing

do not archive

_________________
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/

jpl(at)showpage.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:20 pm Post subject: fun last Saturday

I would echo some of the comments regarding freedoms, but the blanket  

statements about politicians are just a wee bit over-reaching.  Most  

politicians are trying to do the right thing for the country, whether  

you agree with their definition of "right" or not.  Go to the web  

site of any of your members of Congress and look at what they do.   

They aren't just out looking for re-election.



If you want to roll back the losses in freedoms, talk to the  

politicians during election year and toss out the ones who would  

erase freedoms.



-J



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 do not archive

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: fun last Saturday

Good advice. I would only add that another thing is to start paying attention. Give a rip about user fees when they're not about airplanes.  Give a rip about rights, when they're not talking about the ones you're interested in. And stop listening to the people who tell you what to think. That creates a culture that doesn't bother with the process of weighing both sides and coming to one's own conclusion.

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

gptyler(at)metrocast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 3:23 pm Post subject: fun last Saturday

Ya Gata love it, thanks for sending that letter  too few of us do, we just mutter under our breath.   George

 [quote]   ---

Dale Ensing

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 571
Location: Aero Plantation Weddington NC

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:01 am Post subject: fun last Saturday

Vince,

 Where is the Palisades nuclear power plant located? I am  planning on flying the scenic route up the shore line from Holland to Charlevoix  when I am Michigan late September. I totally agree with you but think I'll avoid  the 'bird watcher'.

 Dale Ensing

 do not archive 

  	  Quote: 	
		      	  Quote: 	
		            



     

      

Homeland Security had received a      report of aircraft flying near the Palisades nuclear power plant, apparently      from an observer at the plant whose job is to watch for aircraft.   The police officers asked for      our identification and recorded the registration numbers on our      aircraft.  The police officers      had no real indication if they were looking for our aircraft or some other      aircraft(s) who may have been the real target. They relayed this information      to Homeland Security, who gave the officers physical descriptions of me and      my friend to confirm our identities.       The officers departed after confirming our identities.           

      

Vince      Frazier     

3965 Caborn      Road     

Mount Vernon, IN      47620     

812-464-1839  daytime

_________________
Dale Ensing
RV-6A
Aero Plantation
Weddington NC

n395v

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:56 am Post subject: Re: fun last Saturday

 	  Quote: 	
		  with a "wide stance".  	




  



do not archive

_________________
Milt

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:49 am Post subject: fun last Saturday

Palisades NPP is right on  the shores of Lake Michigan just outside of South Haven, MI, which is about 35  miles N. of the Michigan/Indiana line.  DC Cook NPP is 25 miles S of  Palisades, also on the shore line.  

  

 If you're going to loiter  in the area, make sure your preflight includes brushing up on the intercept  signals---just kidding.  Vince's experience was the first that I've ever  heard of at a NPP.  They are required to exercise vigilance, but small  planes are not perceived to be a particular threat by the NRC or plant  security.  Piperphobia is mostly limited to CC (clueless  congressmen).  This might have been an exception but perhaps there was some  fool "buzzing" the plant and security got tired of it and Vince ended up on the  receiving end of security's "we'll teach him a lesson."  Then again, it  might have been one of those "concerned citizens" that decided they were going  to protect the world and report an airplane in the sky--it  happens.

  

 

Chuck  

  

  

  

--

jhstarn(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:30 am Post subject: fun last Saturday

OR...could it just be that the citizen alert system is working. Reporting of anything that looks odd or out of place and expect or DEMAND that it be checked out. Sounds to me like the "system" worked. 

No one was arrested, tossed in jail without a hearing or bail nor beaten to a pulp. Detained, questioned & released, exactly what I would have done and expect the "Thin Blue Line" to continue to do. The sky isn't falling BUT that "could" have been a wolf on sheep's clothing.  Do Not Archive.   KABONG 

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Chuck Jensen <cjensen(at)dts9000.com>

Date: 2007/08/30 Thu AM 07:48:01 CDT

To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: fun last Saturday

[quote]MessagePalisades NPP is right on the shores of Lake Michigan just outside of South Haven, MI, which is about 35 miles N. of the Michigan/Indiana line.Â  DC Cook NPP is 25 miles S of Palisades, also on the shore line.Â  Â If you're going to loiter in the area, make sure your preflight includes brushing up on the intercept signals---just kidding.Â  Vince's experience was the first that I've ever heard of at a NPP.Â  They are required to exercise vigilance, but small planes are not perceived to be a particular threat by the NRC or plant security.Â  Piperphobia is mostly limited to CC (clueless congressmen).Â  This might have been an exception but perhaps there was some fool "buzzing" the plant and security got tired of it and Vince ended up on the receiving end of security's "we'll teach him a lesson."Â  Then again, it might have been one of those "concerned citizens" that decided they were going to protect the world and report an airplane in the sky--it happens.Â 

ChuckÂ 

Â 

Â 

Â 

--

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:48 am Post subject: Re: fun last Saturday

 	  jhstarn(at)verizon.net wrote: 	
		  Sounds to me like the "system" worked. 

No one was arrested, tossed in jail without a hearing or bail nor beaten to a pulp. Detained, questioned & released, exactly what I would have done and expect the "Thin Blue Line" to continue to do. 	




Personally, I'm kind of a fan of the existence of "probable cause" before being detained.

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

acepilot(at)bloomer.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:22 am Post subject: fun last Saturday

However, how many cars get stopped after just driving by the plant on 

the road out front?  Boats sailing by?



Scott

http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/

Gotta Fly or Gonna Die

Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)



jhstarn(at)verizon.net wrote:



[quote]



OR...could it just be that the citizen alert system is working. Reporting of anything that looks odd or out of place and expect or DEMAND that it be checked out. Sounds to me like the "system" worked. 

No one was arrested, tossed in jail without a hearing or bail nor beaten to a pulp. Detained, questioned & released, exactly what I would have done and expect the "Thin Blue Line" to continue to do. The sky isn't falling BUT that "could" have been a wolf on sheep's clothing.  Do Not Archive.   KABONG 

  



>From: Chuck Jensen <cjensen(at)dts9000.com>

>Date: 2007/08/30 Thu AM 07:48:01 CDT

>To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

>Subject: RE: fun last Saturday

>    

>



  



>MessagePalisades NPP is right on the shores of Lake Michigan just outside of South Haven, MI, which is about 35 miles N. of the Michigan/Indiana line.Â  DC Cook NPP is 25 miles S of Palisades, also on the shore line.Â  Â If you're going to loiter in the area, make sure your preflight includes brushing up on the intercept signals---just kidding.Â  Vince's experience was the first that I've ever heard of at a NPP.Â  They are required to exercise vigilance, but small planes are not perceived to be a particular threat by the NRC or plant security.Â  Piperphobia is mostly limited to CC (clueless congressmen).Â  This might have been an exception but perhaps there was some fool "buzzing" the plant and security got tired of it and Vince ended up on the receiving end of security's "we'll teach him a lesson."Â  Then again, it might have been one of those "concerned citizens" that decided they were going to protect the world and report an airplane in the sky--it happen!

>    

>

 s.Â 

  



>ChuckÂ 

>Â 

>Â 

>Â 

>--

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